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Oxyclean posted:I think it'd definitely also fit into the idea of splitting their power being a good/necessary act by Hydalaen. It's common trope in fantasy where there's immortal beings that moral beings tend to live more "meaningful" existences, and how imperfections are what make things beautiful and special. Isn't there a lot of stuff in the game that touches on those elements, the stuff about rejoining the lifestream and such? The Ancients might have been perfect and "unflawed" but what was there to prevent them from stagnating? Maybe I got the wrong idea, but it felt like they had a very sterile society: having to wear identical robes to promote conformity/unity, creations going through bureaucracy, being led by a council? Wasn't there also some stuff about people running out of things to create? I really like this point. They're ancient, stagnant and unchanging, which according to lore on the first is an attribute of light. Normally we're been treating them as dark-aligned, continual change and growth, but looking at their society it doesn't seem like it. At least from the little window Emet-Selch created for us.
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Jul 12, 2019 17:47
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Orcs and Ostriches posted:Post-MSQ in a retelling told by the big baddie himself who doesn't even ask himself "are we the baddies" after trasforming into a monstrosity of scary masks and poo poo
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Jul 12, 2019 17:47
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Truga posted:in a retelling told by the big baddie himself who doesn't even ask himself "are we the baddies" after trasforming into a monstrosity of scary masks and poo poo this this this he doesn’t have to lie to you to tell you wrong things
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Jul 12, 2019 17:50
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As for THE calamity: The Amaurotians heard a tremendous keening cry from below the earth which set all the bad poo poo in motion. While it's clear the anxiety and fear from this phenomena was the fuel for their apocalypse, there is still an unknown factor at work here. Maybe the source has something like the weapons from FF7 who were disturbed by overuse of creation magic or some cosmic entity was sleeping on the planet until that point. We already have legit aliens with the dragons, Omega's creators, and Ultima so why not.
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Jul 12, 2019 17:51
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Nessus posted:Maybe y'all should say hi to people, I usually say "hi folks" while zoning in and remark on funny glams/names/people doing stuff for the first time. More time talkin means less time for my dude to punch something in the back of the head repeatedly, so no thanks. Also typing while playing with a controller is just asking to end up in an aoe or some poo poo, cause it will assuredly slip off my knee.
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Jul 12, 2019 17:58
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The important thing to keep in mind about (5.0 msq) Emet-Selch is that he's an unreliable narrator. He made it sound like the people of his planet were united in summoning Zodiark but it's obvious from the fact that Hydelyn both was created to oppose it and was powerful enough to break Zodiark and the world into multiple dimensions that his portrayal of events is only one piece of the picture. I think he honestly believes he's doing right by his people, but his memories are clouded by millenia of nostalgia of how things use to be coupled with the possibility that he had an incomplete picture of how things were at the time. He can't speak for all people of the time because he didn't know all the people of the time. If he was surrounded by Zodiark sycophants in his immediate orbit it would potentially look like Hydelyn came out of nowhere to smite his God.
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Jul 12, 2019 18:03
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Was it ever explicitly stated that Emet was tempered by Zodiark? I remember considering the possibility when he says Zodiark is a primal, but I don't remember it getting more explicit than that.
cheetah7071 fucked around with this message at 18:07 on Jul 12, 2019 |
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Jul 12, 2019 18:03
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cheetah7071 posted:Was it ever explicitly stated that Emet was temperedby Zodiark? I remember considering the possibilitywhen he says Zodiark is a primal, but I don't remember it getting more explicit than that. It's purposely left vague.
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Jul 12, 2019 18:06
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Orcs and Ostriches posted:Post-MSQ In Final Fantasy 10, Yuna was also prepared to willingly sacrifice herself and her friends, but that was a result of a lifetime of indoctrination in a society that considers self-sacrifice to be the highest calling. Even in our own real life culture, the idea of the noble sacrifice is dangerously ubiquitous. And that kind of fits into the WoL's story arc, with you realizing that it's a far greater thing to live and fight on. It ties in with the other major story arcs being about the different forms of love - love of friends, love of strangers, love of beauty, love of family, and love of the world. The WoL's story is that of philautia, the love of self.
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Jul 12, 2019 18:06
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DeathSandwich posted:It's purposely left vague. That's what I thought but people a few pages ago were talking like it was explicit
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Jul 12, 2019 18:08
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cheetah7071 posted:Was it ever explicitly stated that Emet was tempered by Zodiark? I remember considering the possibility when he says Zodiark is a primal, but I don't remember it getting more explicit than that.
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Jul 12, 2019 18:10
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cheetah7071 posted:That's what I thought but people a few pages ago were talking like it was explicit It's explicitly stated by the man himself that it happened, but what that exactly means is up for grabs.
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Jul 12, 2019 18:10
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cheetah7071 posted:That's what I thought but people a few pages ago were talking like it was explicit Basically (5.0)Emit admits Ascians being tempered is a possibility. He doesn't out and out say "Yes, all of me and mine are indisputably tempered" Edit ^^^ huh, I take back what I said then.
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Jul 12, 2019 18:10
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I must have just forgotten that line then. Was it in the final sequence or earlier?
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Jul 12, 2019 18:11
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cheetah7071 posted:That's what I thought but people a few pages ago were talking like it was explicit he says he was and he also says he doesn’t lie to you which some posters interpreted as him speaking gospel
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Jul 12, 2019 18:13
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I think some of the conformity and sterility of Amaurot, though, comes from their creation magic. When you can literally make anything you can imagine, the material world would quickly lose interest for most. Material possessions were meaningless to the Ascians because they could simply make anything they wanted. I think that's why they seemed to prize scholarly pursuits like science, magic, and debate far above more traditional careers and professions - they're an entire civilization of monks who have transcended the need for material desires. This and more - including the very name Amaurot - are all nods to Thomas Moore's novel Utopia.
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Jul 12, 2019 18:15
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I'm a little over 3/4 (so maybe 4/5) of the way through ARR main questline, and I'm just wondering if I'm wrong for not knowing or really caring about what's going on story-wise. Sometimes I find myself trying to really pay attention, but it all just seems like boring filler to get to the dungeons.
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Jul 12, 2019 18:15
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Nessus posted:When it comes up, he himself is like "oh yes we're all tempered by Zodiark, obviously". While it's possible he's being sarcastic, the only real way for this to not be "true" as we understand it is if tempering doesn't work the way we think it does. We've never seen a primal summoned by "intact" souls so Zodiark/Hydaelyn could be fundamentally different from the current primals on the source.
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Jul 12, 2019 18:20
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BisterdDave posted:I'm a little over 3/4 (so maybe 4/5) of the way through ARR main questline, and I'm just wondering if I'm wrong for not knowing or really caring about what's going on story-wise. Sometimes I find myself trying to really pay attention, but it all just seems like boring filler to get to the dungeons. Some of it is, and you're gone through some really, really bad parts where they have you fetch poo poo just to pad time. Literally to pad time, because they had to find some way of putting content into the frankensteined remains of a failed game without burning out everyone on the team. While I say the ARR story is passable, it starts briefly reaching good at the climax, and doesn't stay good until the latter end through the post ARR patch stories. If it's not your cup of tea, it's understandable. The main benefit is that they keep using the same established characters and plot hooks from years back, and turn them into better plots with better pacing.
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Jul 12, 2019 18:20
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Cythereal posted:I think some of the conformity and sterility of Amaurot, though, comes from their creation magic. When you can literally make anything you can imagine, the material world would quickly lose interest for most. Material possessions were meaningless to the Ascians because they could simply make anything they wanted. I think that's why they seemed to prize scholarly pursuits like science, magic, and debate far above more traditional careers and professions - they're an entire civilization of monks who have transcended the need for material desires. Also, the quest where the ghosts rag on you for needing to be unique and stand out rather than conform to the bog standard appearance. Eldibius is running around in his ornate white robes. I wonder if that's going to be something they touch on.
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Jul 12, 2019 18:20
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cheetah7071 posted:I must have just forgotten that line then. Was it in the final sequence or earlier? Earlier, maybe in Rak'tika? He says basically that he was one of the ones who summoned Zodiark, and that of course he's tempered - he doesn't think it's even avoidable, when faced with a primal that strong.
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Jul 12, 2019 18:21
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hobbesmaster posted:We've never seen a primal summoned by "intact" souls so Zodiark/Hydaelyn could be fundamentally different from the current primals on the source. Wasn't Bahamut summoned by Dragons?
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Jul 12, 2019 18:23
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cheetah7071 posted:I must have just forgotten that line then. Was it in the final sequence or earlier? During one of the optional talks outside of cutscenes I think.
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Jul 12, 2019 18:24
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TulliusCicero posted:I have learned in new content as dps during fights to typically just follow what the healer or tank do in regards to movement or positioning for mechanics I don't know, because they ussually know what to do to survive, and 9 times out of 10 I'm still alive and the BLM or Dragoon just ate poo poo because they didn't. This works exceedingly well doing trust dungeons too.
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Jul 12, 2019 18:24
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ImpAtom posted:Wasn't Bahamut summoned by Dragons? The inhabitants of Merycida in general, including some dragons.
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Jul 12, 2019 18:25
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Tiamat doesn't seem to be tempered, just horribly depressed and in emotional limbo.
Tekne fucked around with this message at 19:06 on Jul 12, 2019 |
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Jul 12, 2019 18:27
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Gruckles posted:During one of the optional talks outside of cutscenes I think. Oh well no wonder I missed it then
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Jul 12, 2019 18:27
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ImpAtom posted:Wasn't Bahamut summoned by Dragons? You're right, guess all of Midgardsormr's descendents would have full souls as well? Except his children on the source seem to be weaker than him for some reason, perhaps just age?
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Jul 12, 2019 18:28
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Kurieg posted:Also, the quest where the ghosts rag on you for needing to be unique and stand out rather than conform to the bog standard appearance. Eldibius is running around in his ornate white robes. I wonder if that's going to be something they touch on. Though, later on in that quest, another ghost tells you that you should ignore that other rear end in a top hat and explore your creativity while you're young. So there is that.
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Jul 12, 2019 18:31
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Cabbit posted:Though, later on in that quest, another ghost tells you that you should ignore that other rear end in a top hat and explore your creativity while you're young. So there is that. Calling Elidibus out the next time we see him for dressing like a child would be funny though.
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Jul 12, 2019 18:32
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ImpAtom posted:Wasn't Bahamut summoned by Dragons? Bahamut the primal was also by all accounts considerably more powerful than any other primal we've seen, except perhaps something like Alexander.
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Jul 12, 2019 18:32
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hobbesmaster posted:You're right, guess all of Midgardsormr's descendents would have full souls as well? Except his children on the source seem to be weaker than him for some reason, perhaps just age? It's age. Midgarsomr was already ancient when he came to this star, and his brood wasn't born yet. Where they're from might have different laws of existence entirely, so what constitutes a full soul for them might not be the same as from Amaurot. They certainly don't use the same creation power, but they're still immortal. Magil Zeal posted:Bahamut the primal was also by all accounts considerably more powerful than any other primal we've seen, except perhaps something like Alexander. Another thing to keep in mind was Bahamut was summoned by an entire desperate country / continent, with all sorts of creatures. Most primals we see are the work of tribes and smaller factions of varying levels of power. Orcs and Ostriches fucked around with this message at 18:35 on Jul 12, 2019 |
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Jul 12, 2019 18:33
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Cythereal posted:I think some of the conformity and sterility of Amaurot, though, comes from their creation magic. When you can literally make anything you can imagine, the material world would quickly lose interest for most. Material possessions were meaningless to the Ascians because they could simply make anything they wanted. I think that's why they seemed to prize scholarly pursuits like science, magic, and debate far above more traditional careers and professions - they're an entire civilization of monks who have transcended the need for material desires. All of this stuff makes me think our version is sterilized from someone who has a very biased view Utopia is never a true Utopia in fantasy or science fiction; somewhere, poo poo was hosed
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Jul 12, 2019 18:33
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TulliusCicero posted:All of this stuff makes me think our version is sterilized from someone who has a very biased view I'm pretty sure that's the point. It was the point of the book, too. Utopia was a satire. 
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Jul 12, 2019 18:34
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BisterdDave posted:I'm a little over 3/4 (so maybe 4/5) of the way through ARR main questline, and I'm just wondering if I'm wrong for not knowing or really caring about what's going on story-wise. Sometimes I find myself trying to really pay attention, but it all just seems like boring filler to get to the dungeons. A lot of the "story" around the dungeons is just outright nonsense even if you are trying to pay attention. I'm still not sure what most of the ARR dungeons are about and I was trying to know. Brayfuck's Flippy Flop or whatever the poo poo it's called is the absolute worst because of the goblin gibberish. It's a shame too because it's a fun one to run.
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Jul 12, 2019 18:34
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TulliusCicero posted:All of this stuff makes me think our version is sterilized from someone who has a very biased view In a true utopia there'd be no conflict though so it wouldn't be worth writing about. Also, dystopias and utopias are inevitably used to make commentary on present society. Alternative ultra hot take: Dante's paridiso.
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Jul 12, 2019 18:35
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Draxion posted:Earlier, maybe in Rak'tika? He says basically that he was one of the ones who summoned Zodiark, and that of course he's tempered - he doesn't think it's even avoidable, when faced with a primal that strong. I think he's lying by omission, in this instance. From what we've learned so far, the powers of a primal and their modus operandi are strongly influenced by the summoner. In every case, the Ascians have gifted the knowledge of their old creation magic to groups who are in dire circumstances, and who consequently turn to the image of their tribal deities for inspiration. They imagine conquering effigies who will take their revenge against their oppressors and lead their people into a new age. If you summon a god with the concept in your mind that they are the ruler of your people, then you're going to birth a creature with the power to rule over them.
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Jul 12, 2019 18:36
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rantmo posted:A lot of the "story" around the dungeons is just outright nonsense even if you are trying to pay attention. I'm still not sure what most of the ARR dungeons are about and I was trying to know. Brayfuck's Flippy Flop or whatever the poo poo it's called is the absolute worst because of the goblin gibberish. It's a shame too because it's a fun one to run. Cutter's Cry makes me cry I still don't even know what's going in besides ANTS and it's really long and boring
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Jul 12, 2019 18:37
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Vermain posted:I think he's lying by omission, in this instance. From what we've learned so far, the powers of a primal and their modus operandi are strongly influenced by the summoner. In every case, the Ascians have gifted the knowledge of their old creation magic to groups who are in dire circumstances, and who consequently turn to the image of their tribal deities for inspiration. They imagine conquering effigies who will take their revenge against their oppressors and lead their people into a new age. If you summon a god with the concept in your mind that they are the ruler of your people, then you're going to birth a creature with the power to rule over them. Zodiark was created with the express purpose of remaking the very laws of existence. Even if tempering ascians was impossible before he was summoned, it might not have been afterwards if he desired it.
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Jul 12, 2019 18:40
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MatteusTheCorrupt posted:Zodiark was created with the express purpose of remaking the very laws of existence. Even if tempering ascians was impossible before he was summoned, it might not have been afterwards if he desired it. Out of curiosity, does anyone happen to have a translation for the Japanese versions of the lines where this is discussed? Reshaping fundamental physical and aetheric laws is a pretty fuckin' tall order, regardless of how good Amaurotian souls might've been. I'm curious whether "rewriting the very laws of existence" is a mere poetic flourish in the English version for something else, or if the Japanese version says the same thing.
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Jul 12, 2019 18:43
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