Paul ReiserFS posted:

Another good one prompted by something 13pandora13 said: My dad started the only ‘apology’ conversation with me about how he was when I was a kid that summed up to “I was young and I didn’t want a kid” while we were driving from the hotel to my wedding

teen witch posted:

I’ve had my stuffed bear, Blackie, since I popped out of my mother’s body. I’m entirely aware of the irony.

In any case, he’s been to college and now lives with my in Sweden, resting on a bookshelf.

I refer to him as being there for me more than my father.

MasBrillante posted:

Not Blackie the Bear. Lol, Jesus.

MasBrillante posted:

Yes, I totally believe your 40 year old son still hates you because his dad “turned him against” you when he was in 2nd grade.

quote:

Hi, I just joined. I haven’t read Sheri’s book yet, but am going to order it after the holiday. My son was turned against me when he was in grade school 30 years ago so when my ex and I divorced, I had to let him live with his dad as he had moved to a cousin’s and wouldn’t live with me. The relationship over the years was not good, but there was one until his teens when he got in trouble and I was the old biddie for trying to intervene. I had remarried by then and moved to another state as my son would have so little to do with me. We’ve had a relationship off and on over the years, and this last summer he seemed very grateful for my support for some stuff he was involved in, but then he went dark and I can’t get him to respond to anything no matter what I do. He did this once before for a year. Besides being alienated from me as a child, I think the fact that he married a girl from a very well to do family who I suspect helps them out financially makes him look down on his own parents. I found out from my ex who I called the other day to find out what was going on with our sin that he has to walk on eggshells around him too. My son isn’t abusive if/when I talk to him, just very short with me like he’s doing me a favor to listen to me. When we are on good terms, I get maybe 5 minutes a month out of him with phone calls and maybe 10 texts a year. I don’t want to be permanently estranged as I can’t imagine never knowing what comes of him or his family. He’s married to a decent woman and they have one son who I’ve met once for an hour when he was 1 year old. They do accept gifts so that’s encouraging although I’m more or less buying their love and I know it. I’m glad to see I’m not alone, but dumbstruck at the epidemic of estrangement going on in our society today!!

quote:

I’m sorry to hear your ES has accused you of this, but it strikes me that this is the new thing for hurting people to do is to research mental illness and personality disorders, diagnose those they dislike and throw it in their face. My sister did this to me years ago–she has the whole family diagnosed with something. It’s an excuse to justify them hating you or whomever as in my sister’s case.

quote:

I’m sorry you’re going through this.

I believe personality is basically inborn to a greater or lesser extent, and while nurturing impacts it, genetics is so strong that it’s almost impossible to change.

I have a sister who I believe has borderline traits–I don’t know if she’s full-on borderline, but she has most of the traits. Sadly, I’m estranged from her for the 4th time in 25 years. I see a lot of how she responds when I upset her in the posts on her about the verbal abuse and the like, especially telling me to never contact her again.

I believe a great deal of estrangement is related to various personality disorders, but I also believe it’s getting much worse as parental rights and roles have changed over the years to where parents now live to give their child a perfect life unlike when I was growing up in the 60s. The child is now the de-facto boss and wields all the power in the family with threats of estrangements. I feel like I’m in the Twilight Zone….

quote:

I’ve also come to realize that here in America there is a ‘victim culture’ where being a victim gives you status and power. And things that used to be part of life are not looked on a person affronts like a dirt look, snarky comment and the like. I wonder if some of this isn’t behind the estrangement of so many really young people who feel they’re parents abused them when it sounds like their parents just weren’t perfect. Instead of ‘manning up’ like people used to do, we now have ‘safe spaces’ on colleges where young people can go hide when they’re confronted with an idea they don’t like.

MasBrillante posted:

Antivehicular posted:

Tell me these are all the same poster, because "armchair mental illness diagnoses are a tool of abuse! ANYWAY let me tell you about my estranged sister who I'm pretty sure is borderline" is delicious.

Boywhiz88 posted:

This premise is way darker in the wake of this thread.

Boywhiz88 posted:

This premise is way darker in the wake of this thread.

MasBrillante posted:

This might help clarify some things. Or maybe make them more confusing, I don’t know:

https://twitter.com/stefanmolyneux/status/1157076342476857344?s=21

Paul ReiserFS posted:

Another good one prompted by something 13pandora13 said: My dad started the only ‘apology’ conversation with me about how he was when I was a kid that summed up to “I was young and I didn’t want a kid” while we were driving from the hotel to my wedding

Boywhiz88 posted:

This premise is way darker in the wake of this thread.

MasBrillante posted:

It’s fascinating to me how many men think fatherhood is a thing that is unjustly forced upon them and how socially acceptable it is for them to “deal with it” by just being lovely people and then gradually appearing to be less lovely people decades later. Utterly fascinating.

Elderbean posted:

A lot of men are impotent and selfish children who simply cannot grasp the concept of bonding with another person unless there is someway they can personally benifit from it. Anything else is a burden.

Boywhiz88 posted:

This premise is way darker in the wake of this thread.

Elderbean posted:

If you ever read incel forums this is huge. They all see fatherhood as a prison that women rope men into. When they describe their ideal relationship, they still have a child (they want to pass on their legacy) but want no involvement in raising said child. They want the mother to do it all while they go to work and spend their free time playing videogames.

A lot of men are impotent and selfish children who simply cannot grasp the concept of bonding with another person unless there is someway they can personally benifit from it. Anything else is a burden.

Elderbean posted:

If you ever read incel forums this is huge. They all see fatherhood as a prison that women rope men into. When they describe their ideal relationship, they still have a child (they want to pass on their legacy) but want no involvement in raising said child. They want the mother to do it all while they go to work and spend their free time playing videogames.

A lot of men are impotent and selfish children who simply cannot grasp the concept of bonding with another person unless there is someway they can personally benifit from it. Anything else is a burden.

Boywhiz88 posted:

This premise is way darker in the wake of this thread.

Mr. Lobe posted:

if this thread has shown anything it's that shithead abusive parent of estranged children is an alarmingly large demographic so media catered to them which gives them flattering protagonists to project onto is a pretty shrewd fiscal move

SweetWillyRollbar posted:

Some of the viewer reviews of that movie are...interesting

SweetWillyRollbar posted:

I am too dumb/old to figure out how to upload images!

SweetWillyRollbar posted:

Okay! I figured it out! Man... I'm slow.

SweetWillyRollbar posted:

Ghost Leviathan posted:

Boomer pandering is just going to keep getting more horribly specific.

Drunk Nerds posted:

In the first pages of this thread, several people asked how we can be sure that these parents are the ones in the wrong? I responded with the insight from the multiple posts in the op which asserted that, if the kids were in the wrong, these parents would have filtered into support group messageboards: if they're on a general support board it means they are the problem.

After reading hundreds of posts, I realize it's simpler than that. It's "If they don't introspect or if they dwell on the past rather than looking forward, they're the problem."

My parents were super-tough. Nowhere near the level of many parents in this thread, and I am glad you all got support because you are wonderful people. But to the level that my loving wife has wondered aloud multiple times, "what did your parents do to you?"

The difference is, with my kids, when we had an issue my parents said "okay, what can I do to fix this situation?" I've rarely threatened to withhold my kids from seeing my parents, because I consider that weaponizing my kids, but the times I have they've said "what did I do?" and I've said stuff like, "you slap their hands when they misbehave" and they have said, "okay, I won't do that."

The desire to see their grandchildren overcomes their desire to not improve themselves, and it really illustrates a stark comparison to these estranged rants where they never once say "what can I do? They won't communicate what I can do!" rather than "They won't talk to me! They won't even tell me what I did." The past tense versus the future tense is the dead giveaway.

They'd rather live in the past and cling to past slights, when regardless of whether these slights are real or not, a focus on working on the future is the only key to healing these relationships.

quote:

A big part of it is an allergy to shame. People like this were brought up by parents who simultaneously engulfed them in shame and didn’t teach them the skills to deal with shame, so any hint of shame threatens to destroy them. They can’t handle shame long enough to deal with even basic questions like, “Was I wrong in this situation?” It’s not that they would rather be right than be happy. It’s more like–well, let’s say the key to your heart’s desire is two feet deep in a pool of lava, and you can’t use a tool to get it out. Are you choosing not to be happy, or are you physically incapable of doing what you need to do to be happy?

quote:

Even though my DIL has been instrumental in the estrangement with our son, I have tried to be as kind as I know how to be under the circumstances. For the past three years I have continued to send her a send both of them birthday cards and have sent them combined Christmas gifts. She told me before the “big shutout” “they” only wanted money for gifts. So I send them each a card with a dollar for each of their birthday years + 1 extra “to how on”. Trying to keep it light. This year I really thought about whether to send anything because she had recently tried to sabotage our lunch with our son* and said awful things to me. But I decided to go ahead. She hasn’t acknowledged. Our son at least has been answering texts and says he wants to get together and he always says thanks for his card and the Christmas gift. I don’t expect anything from the relationship to change – although I do hope for that and pray. But evidently I do have expectations under the surface. Otherwise it wouldn’t bother me so much that she doesn’t acknowledge anything. So now I wish I hadn’t sent it because maybe it really was me trying to get some type of acknowledgement or for her to show some mercy. Now I just feel bad that I should have stayed silent. I don’t want them around if they don’t really care about us. And I don’t think she can. I think my son is trying to figure out a relationship with us but it is a distant place from what our family used to have ( or seemed to have). I don’t know what they want, really. How can you know when people won’t talk? So anyway I am just coming here to say unless something big changes I won’t send her any more cards. Not to “punish” her but because she has broken this relationship off herself and my attempts to reconcile have been met with contempt. I need to accept that and just let go. It’s not going to ever be the same or anything like we expected but life is still good. I love my husband so much and am so grateful that he is in my life.

quote:

So long as you can afford to give them the money, I’d continue for one simple reason–so they can’t use it against you if you don’t give them gifts.

quote:

When it becomes one-sided in card/gift giving, I think they begin to reason in their minds that you’re making up for some wrong you’ve done. So, of course, they deserve your “repentance “. And they don’t have to return the action because they will decide when you are forgiven.

quote:

quote:

Our ES got hold of us to go to lunch tomorrow. Haven’t seen him for five months this time and his wife has refused contact for two years. Today she sent me a very hateful and hurtful email. Said I owe her an apology (have apologized to him, to her over and over) for an argument after SHE kept pressure for money and I finally said no more. After that no matter how i reached out or what I sad she would not talk with me accused me of being bipolar, of disrespecting them, of hurting my son After several months of silence out son sent an email that he thought things had gotten confused and he wanted to start over. He got with us for lunch a few times and acted like nothing had happened but it was like talking to a stranger. Just surface talk. Now this letter from her. I had sent an email last August saying how I wish I could find a way to apologize and heal our relationship. No response again until he reached out to go to lunch tomorrow. We haven’t heard where he wants to meet and I imagine he isn’t going to now. I have had a depressive disorder since childhood but I have never been bipolar. She says she won’t talk to us unless we meet with a counselor. I am open to doing that as long as we both agree on the counselor. She has severe ADD and has been diagnosed with OCD as well. She says they are under too much stress right now so it could be several months. We are just floored and do not know what to do. Frankly she scares me. Our son is silent so I don’t know what he is thinking. She said “You are not the victim here!” Meaning she is, I guess.

quote:

Dear AFOL, I do not know if you will see this before meeting with ES for lunch tomorrow. I suspect that the wife just found out about his lunch plans and decided to sabotage them. I would continue to expect to meet for that lunch until you do or do not hear from him right beforehand.

I might suggest you use your wise mind and step out of emotional mind on this email thing and DIL actions. Can you set aside your pride and realize that this email is all about DIL’s issues or problems or instability? She wants you to be upset and angry and blow off ES. So when I see that in my own life, I refuse to allow these people to control me and I also won’t get sucked into the drama.
. . . .

The email is her way of getting you to freak out and make emotional mistakes here — and be upset. You do not have to allow her, DIL, to control your mind and life. You do not have to fight or argue or “BE RIGHT” with this pitiful woman who is obviously unbalanced/sick/damaged – whatever.

If it were me, and I have gotten bold and less chained to needing validation or being like by others, if it were me, I’d print off a copy of that email and put it in my purse. I would say to ES in a sweet voice and with empathy that I am sorry his wife sounded so angry and upset in her email. Then stop and allow ES to say something or ask what email. I would have it in my purse just in case he doesn’t believe you, which I have had manipulators claim I am making up this stuff when I am not. I am not saying make this a big fight, rather I am saying the opposite. Detach with love. Meet with your son and know his wife is an impediment but if you get this lunch, just enjoy it as much as humanly possible given the craziness.

OP posted:

We met and lunch was nice. We talked about the letter. Our son feels caught in the middle. Loves his wife and loves us. We talked about the counseling option but the three of us seemed to agree that we need to try to just talk first. Son gave his version of how his wife feels and I tried to explain my feelings. He has asked us not to contact them in any way and says he will try to work out a way for us to get together to talk whether with a counselor or without. I made it clear I am not going to be bullied. Period. He thinks we can resolve all this. I am grateful he thinks so and wants to try. We both told him we want his marriage to succeed and if that means we can’t be part of their lives then that’s what we will do but we really want to try to understand AND be understood. Right now I am exhausted and I don’t know what will happen. I am sure it will be months before we hear from them again. And if she refuses to meet – and I honestly think she will refuse – then I am not going to keep trying to reach out. She wears grudges like they are designer gowns and while I genuinely feel sorry for her I am not going to be a willing doormat. For my son’s sake I hope she is a better person than I can see her as at this time.

OP posted:

Just to be real here – the one place I don’t have to “fake it”. I’ve been crying for the last three days. I want all this to be over. I do let her – and him – get into my head and beat me up and leave me feeling like I’m worthless and shameful and self-centered and toxic (her favorite word). So I cry and talk to myself and try really hard not to worry my sweet husband who would do anything to make this better. I try to just keep moving forward but I feel like I’m stuck. Then I feel bad that I’m feeling sorry for myself. Then I’m angry at them and me and I hate this whole stupid mess. In a few weeks, I know things will be better.

Boywhiz88 posted:

I just started a rewatch of The Sopranos and reading these stories in Livia Soprano’s voice is spot-on.

MasBrillante posted:

This was her first post on the site:

quote:

Hi, I am new here. My daughter, my once best friend, has refused to have anything to do with me for almost 3 years. She just turned 27. Much of why she has shut me out is my own fault. That fact haunts me every day. Three years ago, my daughter, her husband, and our baby grandson (our first grandchild) lived 20 minutes away, having moved from 300 miles away to be closer to us. I would pick her and the baby up several times a week for various outings. Every Thursday I picked them up and brought them to our home to do laundry. Our son-in-law was laid off mid summer of 2016. He couldn’t really find another job so they made the decision to move to his relative’s home 600 miles away. I was devastated. I didn’t handle that move well at all. All was still well between us. We visited when we could. But, two and a half years ago life fell apart for all of us. We got a late night call from our son-in-law telling us that our daughter had asked him to go with our grandson to his parents for a few nights because she wasn’t sure she loved him anymore. I was furious. My daughter has never really followed through with anything–she changed high schools 3 times, she changed college majors twice before eventually just dropping out… I finally got a hold of her (she was furious that our son-in-law had even called us). She said she shouldn’t have gotten married in the first place (they had been married 3 years at that time). I nicely told her she should have thought of that before she brought a baby into the world. We visited our son-in-law and our grandson a few months after this. We thought we could see our daughter too, but she refused to see us. Our son-in-law (and his mom who was there) assured us they didn’t intend to keep our grandson from us. I tried a few more times to reach out to my daughter (we only had Facebook as a means of communicating because she changed her phone number and we didn’t know where she was living). I was shut down. Our son-in-law suddenly stopped talking to us and blocked us from sending messages on Facebook. We discovered that our son-in-law had filed for divorce and he had primary custody of our grandson. We decided to file for grandparents’ rights. My husband sent a message to our daughter telling her we were going to do that. She blasted us, telling us we would regret it if we did and to stay away from her son. She eventually sent me a message telling me she knew drug addicts who treated their kids better than I did when she and her husband separated. I wouldn’t go that far, but I do know, and admitted, that I totally screwed up in how I handled it. She also said we were not her family anymore. She has cut her siblings out of her life as well–even her brother who she was super close with (and who did nothing to her). Since then, we have seen pictures of our grandson (who turns 4 in two weeks and has no idea who we are) when our son-in-law posts them on Facebook. Our daughter, if she posts anything, does not allow us to see the posts. The only exception to that was Christmas morning when she posted some pictures that we actually got to see. I don’t know if that was a mistake or a gift.

I honestly didn’t think a heart could break over and over again and hurt more each time. I don’t know what else to do. I miss my daughter so much. I miss my grandson and my heart hurts to be a part of his life. My heart hurts for him–for the mess his parents have made in his life. The only good aspect of that is I know our grandson is well loved–our former son-in-law is a great daddy. Still, I find myself envious of his parents who get to see him and spend time with him on a regular basis. He only knows them as grandma and grandpa.

I have acknowledged the mistakes I made when she left her husband. I have apologized and asked for forgiveness. I even admitted to her that I am getting help on how to handle my emotions better. She doesn’t care. I know the longer this goes the less chance there will ever be reconciliation. This is incredibly heartbreaking. I admit that often I have thought about ending my life just to make her feel bad. Thankfully, I have resources to help me through those difficult moments. It still hurts so, SO much

Ebola Roulette posted:

Lol did this lady just admit she married some guy and moved away and abandoned her son with a relative? Then wonders why he won't talk to her?

Anyway, here's a lady with enough self-awareness to know the estrangement is her fault and yet:


- is mad and thinks her daughter should stay in a marriage in which she's unhappy because... She should stick with it because she doesn't follow through with anything
- filed for grandparents rights
- states that she know her grandson is loved because he has a great father (no mention of their daughter and her being a great mother, this is very telling)
- wants to kill herself for the ultimate guilt trip

Just based on the way she talks about her daughter I think this lady thinks that the only mistake she made was not keeping her mouth shut. She doesn't acknowledge her actual mistake, which was being a lovely unsupportive parent who is so batshit she's thought of killing herself in some sort of petty revenge.

Xik posted:

If you've been abusive or otherwise a loving garbage parent, I don't think your kids are going to shed many tears when you die.

Xik posted:

If you've been abusive or otherwise a loving garbage parent, I don't think your kids are going to shed many tears when you die.