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vonnegutt posted:C'mon everybody knows the real way to get a senior engineer position is via word-of-mouth from people you used to work with. I mean, this is a viable strategy that I've seen employed more than once by a close friend and fellow goon.
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Aug 6, 2019 21:33
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I'm pretty critical of the technical job seeking process, especially "homework", but I've never encountered any that could be confused for "real work". They are all extremely obviously little exercises they reuse to "prove" some basic technical skill. None I've encountered could be used in any real world application in any way that I can imagine. I mean if it was "build this obviously relevant to our business rest api, here is this weirdly specific full database schema, you have two weeks" then my hackles would raise, but I've never encountered anything like that in the wild.
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Aug 6, 2019 21:33
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Xik posted:I'm pretty critical of the technical job seeking process, especially "homework", but I've never encountered any that could be confused for "real work". The only time I've seen something like this has been when it actually was work, as in you're hired as a contractor and if you do good work you're offered a more permanent position. Few companies do this. My current company has tried it a few times (a quick hire based on skill not fit) and we're about 50/50 as far as people who can be worked with vs people who just piss the client off.
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Aug 6, 2019 21:40
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How the reason you're not getting more job offers is that even in a hot job market employers still expects a basic level of vetting and evaluations before handing out 200k+ job offers. Of course that's "harder" and "requires more work" and "more annoying" than pissing in a cup and taping a cardboard box shut at an Amazon FC. It also naturally limits how many offers you can get in a given time span even if they really genuinely can't fill all positions. But mostly it's because you're an absolute nightmare of a person to work with.
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Aug 6, 2019 21:45
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evilweasel posted:being able to work with people is a qualification, one that an interview is sort of aimed at uncovering Yep, I was just trying to keep it in terms they'd understand.
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Aug 6, 2019 21:52
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Isn’t a large part of the interview for devs also to see that they will work well with the team, not be a raving rear end in a top hat, and can be relied upon? Even more so once you get more senior and can have more impact?
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Aug 6, 2019 22:03
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Shirec posted:Isn’t a large part of the interview for devs also to see that they will work well with the team, not be a raving rear end in a top hat, and can be relied upon? Even more so once you get more senior and can have more impact? It is. I helped interview a guy a while ago for a senior role and he was technically competent but very much abrasively 'my way is the only way' and we gave him a thumbs down because we were pretty sure he would browbeat the junior guys into doing poo poo whether it was rIght or not.
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Aug 6, 2019 22:09
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feedmegin posted:It is. I helped interview a guy a while ago for a senior role and he was technically competent but very much abrasively 'my way is the only way' Personally, I'd rather work with an "rear end in a top hat" who can get amazing stuff done, rather than a nice guy who is completely incompetent. This is because I'm not a snowflake who is offended by "meanies". Typically there is only one correct way to do something, and infinite many ways to do something wrong. People that know how to do things want to do it the right wy, and reject doing it the wrong way. If that's "my way or the highway" then so be it. School of How fucked around with this message at 23:29 on Aug 6, 2019 |
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Aug 6, 2019 22:44
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C'mon this has to be a troll.
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Aug 6, 2019 22:46
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Shirec posted:Isn’t a large part of the interview for devs also to see that they will work well with the team, not be a raving rear end in a top hat, and can be relied upon? Even more so once you get more senior and can have more impact? My company's internal career ladder description of a Senior Engineer is only like 25% programming excellence. Technical competency is just a bare minimum expectation, but is far from the only qualification. The rest of the qualifications are in the realm of: - writing effective technical specs and design docs - being an effective reviewer and constructive critic of other people's specs and design docs - understand the business goals, needs, and metrics and how engineering fits into solving problems and driving success - understand how your team and functional areas relate to, impact, and are impacted by other teams and functional areas - working collaboratively with your team AND across teams/disciplines (i.e., product, design, operations, etc.) to scope, disambiguate, unblock, and complete projects - being an advocate and motivator of continual improvement in technology and process - being a mentor and coach to junior devs - not being a horse's rear end of a person to work with and sit next to on a daily basis If all you want to do in "beep boop give me perfect spec I poop out code" then you are FAR from being a senior engineer. School of How posted:Personally, I'd rather work with an "rear end in a top hat" who can get amazing stuff done, rather than a nice guy who is completely incompetent. This is because I'm not a snowflake who is offended by "meanies". That you think this is an either-or situation is very revealing. Guinness fucked around with this message at 22:55 on Aug 6, 2019 |
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Aug 6, 2019 22:53
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School of How posted:Most people that know what they're doing and are able to get stuff done are this way. i find that it's pretty rare you actually have the choice between nice guy and technically competent. assholes also tend to suck technically, as they're generally not good at learning new things from other people.
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Aug 6, 2019 22:56
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Eggnogium posted:C'mon this has to be a troll. Yeah, I think they've gotten us good. This is the most posting I've seen out of the Oldie thread in a long long time (forever?). rotor posted:in most orgs hiring a bad engineer is much worse than hiring no engineer at all. This is 110% true and is a miserable thing to have to deal with.
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Aug 6, 2019 23:04
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School of How posted:Most people that know what they're doing and are able to get stuff done are this way. lmao you're a piece of poo poo and I hope no one hires you
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Aug 6, 2019 23:07
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School of How posted:Most people that know what they're doing and are able to get stuff done are this way. No, my dude, they really are not. The fact you are this guy is why you aren't getting hired hth. Linus is not actually a role model.
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Aug 6, 2019 23:08
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Oh cool he said the right-winger word.
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Aug 6, 2019 23:08
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CPColin posted:Or are qualified but kind of a jerk nobody wants to work with
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Aug 6, 2019 23:12
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School of How posted:Most people that know what they're doing and are able to get stuff done are this way. Just lmfao if you're not a parody account...
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Aug 6, 2019 23:19
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The problem is that this is the oldie thread. Not the senior thread. So such opinions are valid here based on time on market rather than skill and maturity. I mean they haven’t even considered the legal implications of custom and short circuiting interview loops at large corporations.
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Aug 6, 2019 23:26
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School of How posted:Typically there is only one correct way to do something this right here is where I write "do not hire" in my interview notes and continue smiling and nodding.
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Aug 6, 2019 23:41
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rotor posted:this right here is where I write "do not hire" in my interview notes and continue smiling and nodding. Interviewer: *drops pen on the floor* Interviewee: "Sorry, should I pause so you can pick up your pen?" Interviewer: "Nahh, I don't need it now."
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Aug 7, 2019 00:03
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RE: Market Saturation, I just wrapped up a couple months of interviewing in Austin and the market's hot hot hot. It may be a little bit saturated on the junior side of things, mostly because junior engineering positions are rare. Technical skills are important, but not being an insufferable rear end is by far one of the best qualifiers for a senior role. Hiring someone at that level who is a turd is a quick way to rot your team and kill morale.
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Aug 7, 2019 00:11
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I was looped in to interview a supposed rockstar coder, and I was forewarned by the manager who wanted to hire him that "he was really good, but he could be a little abrasive." That turned out to be true... when I asked my standard "You and another team member differ on how to design a component. How would you resolve that conflict?", he started his response with "Well, that depends on whether the team member is a man or a woman. Because you can sit down and reason with a man." Thanks for the  buddy, now I get to stare out the window for the rest of the interview.
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Aug 7, 2019 00:11
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That's when you say "thanks for your time", usher them out and kill the rest of their rounds.
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Aug 7, 2019 00:12
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minato posted:I was looped in to interview a supposed rockstar coder, and I was forewarned by the manager who wanted to hire him that "he was really good, but he could be a little abrasive." That turned out to be true... when I asked my standard "You and another team member differ on how to design a component. How would you resolve that conflict?", he started his response with "Well, that depends on whether the team member is a man or a woman. Because you can sit down and reason with a man." Wow. You sure you didn't just interview School of How? Sinten posted:That's when you say "thanks for your time", usher them out and kill the rest of their rounds. no poo poo.
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Aug 7, 2019 00:16
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Was it this forum where someone was conducting a remote interview and when switching windows the candidate’s desktop had a wallpaper that read “5 million dead Jews.... a good start”? I’m not sure if that was a troll post but I was a team lead over several Trump supporters in early 2015 and this wouldn’t be a surprise to me if it’s true given some of the stuff I heard and couldn’t do much about because my own leadership was supportive (I’m an ethnic minority).
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Aug 7, 2019 00:19
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kayakyakr posted:no poo poo. I've worked under toxic leaders who would probably high-five the candidate for bullshit like that. I'd go nuclear and just kill the interview myself for my own sake instead of being drowned out in a committee decision.
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Aug 7, 2019 00:22
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rotor posted:this right here is where I write "do not hire" in my interview notes and continue smiling and nodding. but why, he gave the correct answer and thereby aced the interview 
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Aug 7, 2019 00:37
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the market is oversaturated (with bad engineers)
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Aug 7, 2019 00:48
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how!! brings out the best in these forums. Who else could bring rotor out of retirement?
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Aug 7, 2019 01:00
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basically the way it works is jawn complains about someone being intensely dumb and I can't help coming to take a look
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Aug 7, 2019 01:03
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The notion of somebody being that oblivious made me actually lol. It was a good troll.
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Aug 7, 2019 01:13
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minato posted:I was looped in to interview a supposed rockstar coder, and I was forewarned by the manager who wanted to hire him that "he was really good, but he could be a little abrasive." That turned out to be true... when I asked my standard "You and another team member differ on how to design a component. How would you resolve that conflict?", he started his response with "Well, that depends on whether the team member is a man or a woman. Because you can sit down and reason with a man." At least he had the decency to show his true colours during the interview stage  How did the rest of the interview go? I'm pretty fascinated where you go from there. Was the original manager (that warned you) in there to? How did they react? So many questions.....
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Aug 7, 2019 02:16
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how is 100% earnest and i'm really amazed they're back
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Aug 7, 2019 02:34
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necrobobsledder posted:Was it this forum where someone was conducting a remote interview and when switching windows the candidate’s desktop had a wallpaper that read “5 million dead Jews.... a good start”? I’m not sure if that was a troll post but I was a team lead over several Trump supporters in early 2015 and this wouldn’t be a surprise to me if it’s true given some of the stuff I heard and couldn’t do much about because my own leadership was supportive (I’m an ethnic minority). I got called a chink by a dude I was interviewing once There's being racist and then there's being racist against an ethnicity that will make up like 30-60% of your coworkers
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Aug 7, 2019 02:39
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Xik posted:How did the rest of the interview go? I'm pretty fascinated where you go from there. Was the original manager (that warned you) in there to? How did they react? So many questions..... It was just me in the room, and I took it impassively, and moved onto the next question. It was a huge red flag that the hiring manager had to warn me about him in advance, but it wasn't from nowhere - it turned out the guy himself had warned us of how abrasive he was. I've seen many show-stoppers in interviews; the guy who stunk of BO, the guy who went on an unprompted extended rant about systemd, and the guy who at the end of the interview let us know that he didn't intend to shut down his side business that was a direct competitor to ours. But we're told (for good or ill) to make the interview process as pleasant as possible, because even if we ultimately reject a candidate, we don't want them to badmouth us to their friends who might be good candidates. So even if we know the interview is essentially over, we smile and shake hands and say HR will be in touch. Obviously I wrote down a hard "no" for this person. Toxic employees aren't just hard to get rid of, they can infect a team and cause good people to leave. And obviously no woman is going to want to be on a team with this guy. But disappointingly, the manager who really wanted him was quick to come up with excuses. He'd be working remotely, he's got an amazing track record, he's probably a bit on the spectrum, etc... I don't know if we ended up hiring him, I sure as hell hope not.
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Aug 7, 2019 02:50
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minato posted:make the interview process as pleasant as possible, because even if we ultimately reject a candidate, we don't want them to badmouth us to their friends who might be good candidates. I guess it makes sense from an organisation point of view but as an individual I don't think I could do it honestly. Without thinking I would give the game away and have a knee-jerk reaction of like "uhhh, are you serious?" or something. minato posted:Toxic employees aren't just hard to get rid of, they can infect a team and cause good people to leave. And obviously no woman is going to want to be on a team with this guy. In the past I've seen five woman (one was my wife) leave a department due to lovely new hires. Go from being "fantastic, supportive environment" to "toxic bullshit" with just one or two bad apples if things aren't handled correctly.
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Aug 7, 2019 03:12
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minato posted:But we're told (for good or ill) to make the interview process as pleasant as possible, because even if we ultimately reject a candidate, we don't want them to badmouth us to their friends who might be good candidates. So even if we know the interview is essentially over, we smile and shake hands and say HR will be in touch. Previous place we instituted a policy that the interviewer had to at least finish their block - but after it they could pause the cycle, grab the hiring manager and recruiter and allow them to end it early. We actually got a ton of good feedback when we had to tell people "Hey, we know we asked you to be here for another 2-3 hours but we want to save you the time and it's not going to work out - here's the feedback so far...".
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Aug 7, 2019 03:29
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Here is a serious question for the non-oversaturationists in this thread: I understand you believe the market is not currently oversaturated. I vehemently disagree with you, but I want to know one thing: Do you think the current state of non-oversaturated is permanent, or do you believe that someday it could become oversaturated? In other words, do you feel like demand for developers is infinite, despite the supply of development talent? Imagine if the mount of people that know how to code increases 100 fold. What effect would that have, if any on the job market? If the market ever does become oversaturated, what would that look like? For the record, I believe oversaturation is not a permanent condition. It is possible (yet unlikely) that the market could fix itself some day and stop being oversaturated. When that day comes, it'll be possible for any programmer to send out 5 resumes and get 5 job offers. Homework problems will go away, whiteboarding will go away, and fizzbuzz might make a come back. What has to happen first is that the perception of this industry has to change. I was watching Vice news a few months ago and there was a report they were doing on teachers who were going on strike to protest low wages. One lady they interviewed was really mad that she had a masters degree but couldn't afford to live without roommates. At the end of the interview she said she was learning to code, and hoped to some day quit teaching and become a professional developer. Too many people see programming as an easy way out of a terrible dead end career. As long as this is the popular perception, oversaturation will continue to get worse.
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Aug 7, 2019 05:32
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So much of this is very situational to the region/city and the languages/disciplines involved. Web dev? Servers? DBA? Embedded? Mobile? Desktop? NYC? Idaho? Outside of the US? All totally different pools of applicants and levels of demand and openings.
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Aug 7, 2019 05:40
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I don't think the market is oversaturated. If anything is going to kill tech, it would probably be broader economic/societal collapse that is becoming increasingly more likely (or is already happening) with all of the crap happening at the moment. If we enter a recession or some other great calamity happens, that would undoubtedly dampen targeted advertising and the ad-tech sphere. I'm still not worried about my position as a mid-career person with plenty of experience. I think the outlook is less rosy for kids in hs and college. My crystal ball is cloudy, and probably broken 
biceps crimes fucked around with this message at 05:46 on Aug 7, 2019 |
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Aug 7, 2019 05:43
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