|
Right, and SMG is saying it's super hosed up to take all that power and recreate 'exactly' what we have now. It's the same as making a speedboat. Hulk takes into account Tony Stark's desire to keep his kid but fails to save a single child in poverty. For many, he's deepening it. Becoming Professor Hulk has neutered the Hulk's anger, not just his desire to smash, but also his desire to see real social change.
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2019 22:48
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 28, 2024 20:12 |
|
|
If the Gauntlet could make vehicles why didn't Thanos make his helicopter 
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2019 22:52
|
|
|
josh04 posted:Right, and SMG is saying it's super hosed up to take all that power and recreate 'exactly' what we have now. It's the same as making a speedboat. Hulk takes into account Tony Stark's desire to keep his kid but fails to save a single child in poverty. For many, he's deepening it. Becoming Professor Hulk has neutered the Hulk's anger, not just his desire to smash, but also his desire to see real social change. You guys are for real? Just bringing the dudes back from the dead caused tremendous pain and destroyed his arm. Doing anything else would probably make him explode, as we literally saw in the first Guardians of the Galaxy.
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2019 23:20
|
|
|
Right, I mean, who would want to die to end all slavery, everywhere? Better to just have the speedboat.
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2019 23:24
|
|
|
Are you saying it's easier to imagine the Infinity Gauntlet causing the end of the world, than the Infinity Gauntlet causing the end of captialism?
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2019 23:24
|
|
|
josh04 posted:Are you saying it's easier to imagine the Infinity Gauntlet causing the end of the world, than the Infinity Gauntlet causing the end of captialism? Not easier, but I don't think Thanos expected to survive destroying and remaking the universe. Hulk thought he might die bringing everyone back, but I never got a hint it was anything more than just "save everyone's lives." Also, the Hulk might like capitalism? He never expressed anti-captialist sentiments. In the Immortal Hulk comics, some of his multiple personality do show those sentiments, but Joe Fixit doesn't exist in the MCU.  Maybe MCU Hulk has anti-capitlist sentiments, but its never really shown in any of the movies and especially never to the extent where he'd gladly die to end it. I think you guys might be injecting and projecting your own thoughts and desires on a fictional character and inventing character motivations that simply did not exist within the text itself. Covok fucked around with this message at 23:47 on Aug 18, 2019 |
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2019 23:34
|
|
|
Lt. Danger posted:Right, I mean, who would want to die to end all slavery, everywhere? Better to just have the speedboat. Lmao.
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2019 23:45
|
|
|
Covok posted:You guys are for real? Just bringing the dudes back from the dead caused tremendous pain and destroyed his arm. Doing anything else would probably make him explode, as we literally saw in the first Guardians of the Galaxy. 'just'
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2019 00:15
|
|
|
Just as Cap said, they don't trade lives. Makes sense. Who would want to? Speedboats are dope.
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2019 00:29
|
|
|
I don't think it's a question of the mechanics of the glove or plot holes or whether you can justify according to the internal logic of the universe the limitations on what the characters do with the stones. To me it's more that Infinity War and Endgame are two parts of a nearly six-hour epic about a struggle over the ability to make wishes of universal scope and those wishes end up being one to indiscriminately kill, one to undo the result of that indiscriminate killing, and a final one to kill more discriminately. Which seems a bit of a waste of the premise given the time devoted to exploring it.
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2019 00:32
|
|
|
In the comics, it is pointed out multiple times that imposing your will on the universe using the gems, no matter how noble your aims and how advanced your philosophy, is immoral, because you're literally reshaping reality, people, ideas, lives, free will, etc. to suit what you think the world should be like, a monstrously selfish act. When specifics that seem to have no downside like "ending hunger and disease" are brought up, the counter argument is that the suffering in the universe exists to make societies grow towards a better version of themselves, and that robbing them of that struggle will ultimately stunt them. It's the classic Star Trek argument that man (or weird aliens equivalent to man) simply aren't advanced enough to have that kind of power at their disposal, and that it's arrogance to think otherwise. These questions are not explored in the films because that would take a really long time and be boring.
|
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2019 01:11
|
|
|
True. Without the terror of nearly starving to death alone in an uncaring universe, Tony never would have decided to settle down and have a child.
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2019 01:17
|
|
|
If the comics' explanation is boring then there's always the option of writing something interesting.
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2019 01:18
|
|
|
Covok posted:Not easier, but I don't think Thanos expected to survive destroying and remaking the universe. Hulk thought he might die bringing everyone back, but I never got a hint it was anything more than just "save everyone's lives." Also, the Hulk might like capitalism? He never expressed anti-captialist sentiments. In the Immortal Hulk comics, some of his multiple personality do show those sentiments, but Joe Fixit doesn't exist in the MCU. No one is making up motivations for anyone. They are saying that the characters COULD have ended suffering (even if only some of it) and chose not to. Obviously, they are were not motivated by anti capitalism. They aren’t even motivated by a desire to make the world a better place in the abstract. They’re assholes
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2019 01:24
|
|
|
DeimosRising posted:No one is making up motivations for anyone. They are saying that the characters COULD have ended suffering (even if only some of it) and chose not to. Obviously, they are were not motivated by anti capitalism. They aren’t even motivated by a desire to make the world a better place in the abstract. They’re assholes Or...they decided to save billions of lives and decided anything further would just be them using their powers to oppress googleplex worth of lifeforms under their own limited world view?
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2019 01:27
|
|
|
Actually, slavery isn't bad; it's good, because without slaves, there would be no impetus for society to create speedboats.
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2019 02:07
|
|
|
Lurdiak posted:In the comics You have got to stop this. No one cares.
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2019 02:40
|
|
|
The speedboat analogy is the funniest drat thing, just the mental image of Hulk snapping his fingers and loving of in a speedboat is killing meLurdiak posted:
They had up to 6 hours with IW and EG, you're saying in 6 hours they couldn't find a way to squeeze that in that would be (less) boring than what we got? Yikes
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2019 02:53
|
|
|
sponges posted:You have got to stop this. No one cares.
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2019 02:57
|
|
sponges posted:You have got to stop this. No one cares. I'm offering a point of comparison to the storytelling devices. I'm not saying one is better than the other, but if you're going to analyze an adaptation there's nothing wrong with using the original source for context and contrast.
|
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2019 03:04
|
|
Covok posted:Or...they decided to save billions of lives and decided anything further would just be them using their powers to oppress googleplex worth of lifeforms under their own limited world view? universal healthcare for all is oppression for all. definitely should just go for the speedboat, imo
|
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2019 04:28
|
|
|
sponges posted:You have got to stop this. No one cares. Making comparisons to comics is a perfectly valid way to approach comic book movie discourse. Like, when people mockingly berated Gal Gadot for being too skinny to play Wonder Woman, I could cite multiple instances where comic book artists depicted Diana having a more slim, athletic build as opposed to her being some kind of yoked out weightlifter.
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2019 04:40
|
|
|
Covok posted:Or...they decided to save billions of lives and decided anything further would just be them using their powers to oppress googleplex worth of lifeforms under their own limited world view? "But have you considered that some peoples like being slaves?"
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2019 04:40
|
|
|
The speedboat conundrum is the new trolly problem
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2019 05:32
|
|
|
Tart Kitty posted:The speedboat conundrum is the new trolly problem That makes this kid Thanos then? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-N_RZJUAQY4
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2019 06:54
|
|
|
Lurdiak posted:In the comics, it is pointed out multiple times that imposing your will on the universe using the gems, no matter how noble your aims and how advanced your philosophy, is immoral, because you're literally reshaping reality, people, ideas, lives, free will, etc. to suit what you think the world should be like, a monstrously selfish act. This is...interesting. Does this mean anytime anybody tries to change the world, you know, like trying to achieve, let's say, ending slavery or universal healthcare or minimum basic income or gay rights or transgender rights or workers rights or climate change action, they are being selfish? Because if you are successful in your goals you will be quote:literally reshaping reality, people, ideas, lives, free will, etc. to suit what you think the world should be like Are social activists "monstrously selfish?" Would they become so if they had a magic wishing glove that let them achieve their goals? Or is achieving positive social change good, whether done by political activism or magic? The only difference between the two really is that the magic is basically certain to work. Doing immoral things is immoral, doing good things isn't. Especially as in this case it can be achieved without any violence, unlike other revolutions. And seeing as the Avengers plan in the movie is to use the gems to bring everyone back, they're reshaping the world anyway. Remember, some people will have moved on, remarried etc. Like the new family in Spiderman living in Aunt Mays house. Bringing everybody back sure as poo poo "reshaped their lives", this must be immoral according to your logic.
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2019 07:25
|
|
|
That isn't my logic, it's the logic expressed by the characters in the comics, I have my own perspective on such matters. Trying to make the world a better place using means that don't give you the power of a god is presented as noble, but being godlike and deciding what the world should be like merely by wishing it so is presented as bad. Sort of like the old "Superman ruling the world by force would be bad even if he does know better than us". Undoing whatever bad thing the gems have done is presented as more or less the only acceptable use of the gems.
|
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2019 07:58
|
|
|
But y'know, it's the most decidedly un-neutral thing. Imagine Hulk reversing 9/11 but not bothering to clean up the wars in Afghanistan or Iraq. What's so special about Thanos that makes reversing his crimes a moral imperative above and beyond? What's so special about Tony Stark that the rule of "only reversing" is immediately bent so that he can keep his kid?
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2019 09:03
|
|
josh04 posted:But y'know, it's the most decidedly un-neutral thing. Imagine Hulk reversing 9/11 but not bothering to clean up the wars in Afghanistan or Iraq. What's so special about Thanos that makes reversing his crimes a moral imperative above and beyond? What's so special about Tony Stark that the rule of "only reversing" is immediately bent so that he can keep his kid? As I said, that's the logic in the comics, and it's clear the movie has a different approach. The fact that 5 years pass instead of only a few days certainly makes things different than what has historically happened in the comics when someone gets the gems. It brings up a bunch of trolley-problem-esque causality questions, somewhat akin to those that come up in a time travel story. Is it moral to do horribly unethical things in a bad future you intend to prevent? Is it ethical to wipe out everyone born into a post-apocalyptic world if it prevents the apocalypse? But as for the question of what makes Thanos special, the answer in the comics would be that he used the gems. Any horrible thing he did before getting all 6 would not be reversed, if we're following the ethics that one shouldn't use this power at all except to undo the damage it caused. The fact that this movie doesn't make any such declarations about the morality of ultimate power is part of its problems, for me. Whether you agree with that answer or not, it is an answer. The movie seems to posit that the gems shouldn't be used to do that sort of thing because they melt your arm off, and that's about it. They come up with very strange causality reasons for why Black Widow and Tony can't be resurrected, but also whoever did it would get his arm melted off, so better not risk it. Lurdiak fucked around with this message at 09:17 on Aug 19, 2019 |
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2019 09:14
|
|
|
josh04 posted:But y'know, it's the most decidedly un-neutral thing. Imagine Hulk reversing 9/11 but not bothering to clean up the wars in Afghanistan or Iraq. What's so special about Thanos that makes reversing his crimes a moral imperative above and beyond? What's so special about Tony Stark that the rule of "only reversing" is immediately bent so that he can keep his kid? They made a deal to get him to cooperate on the technology and they apparently value honesty more than what would be gained by undoing the five years galenanorth fucked around with this message at 09:57 on Aug 19, 2019 |
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2019 09:53
|
|
|
Lurdiak posted:That isn't my logic, it's the logic expressed by the characters in the comics, I have my own perspective on such matters. Trying to make the world a better place using means that don't give you the power of a god is presented as noble, but being godlike and deciding what the world should be like merely by wishing it so is presented as bad. Sort of like the old "Superman ruling the world by force would be bad even if he does know better than us".
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2019 10:42
|
|
Martman posted:Are you saying the work is presenting these things as good/bad, or just the characters? Both. The characters who are heroic good guys have these opinions, those who are guardians of greater powers agree, and cosmic entities that are beyond mortal comprehension echo them. Every "What If" story featuring people trying to use the gems to improve the world leads to a catastrophic ending or the characters realizing they were wrong to do so. Martman posted:A comic can show fictional characters having opinions, including a narrator, but it can't change morality. I don't even know what point you're trying to make here, morality isn't something objective that we can measure, especially not in completely impossible fictional situations. The trolley problem doesn't have a right answer.
|
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2019 10:55
|
|
|
Finally saw Endgame (I don't do the Cinema) I have some thoughts.. Captain Marvel was a bit of a non starter, not even there for most of the movie and when she did show up all she really did was what everyone else was doing and about as well as everyone else .. buying time. I wanted her and Thanos to go at it more.. The Captain America "ending" was a bit confusing for me and fell a bit flat as 1) I didn't know/remember who the guy was he gave his shield to was and the significance of that 2) If Cap went back in time and stayed there to grow old wouldn't there be 2 Steves.. what happened to the other one ? Anything Stark in this was very good. I feel he got the best of the character based "stuff" Thanos being not really phased at all about the time travel shenanigans was a neat detail, he just rolled with it and adapted his plans accordingly. Korg is the best.
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2019 11:31
|
|
|
Milkfred E. Moore posted:universal healthcare for all is oppression for all. definitely should just go for the speedboat, imo
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2019 12:34
|
|
|
But, like, what if Professor Hulk likes slavery? Making him end slavery when he doesn't want to would make the Avengers the real villains.
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2019 12:45
|
|
|
What if the slaves are the ones building the speed boat?
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2019 13:02
|
|
Irony Be My Shield posted:Universal healthcare is a good example of something that would be a massive moral good to implement conventionally, but which could be very murky with a magic wishing glove. Is it magically shifting political opinions, or getting rid of its opponents and replacing them with people more amenable to the policy? well, we've seen - it's a magic wish giving glove that accounts for intent so it's actually not murky at all
|
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2019 13:26
|
|
|
Irony Be My Shield posted:Universal healthcare is a good example of something that would be a massive moral good to implement conventionally, but which could be very murky with a magic wishing glove. Is it magically shifting political opinions, or getting rid of its opponents and replacing them with people more amenable to the policy? So you’re saying that, at the end of the film, Bruce Banner literally brainwashed the entire population of the universe into not wanting healthcare.
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2019 13:57
|
|
|
Milkfred E. Moore posted:well, we've seen - it's a magic wish giving glove that accounts for intent so it's actually not murky at all I suspect it may be hard to know even your own intentions in sufficient detail, like doing complicated mental math, without writing it down -- aside from all the things the glove would compensate for
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2019 14:09
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 28, 2024 20:12 |
|
|
Lt. Danger posted:Right, I mean, who would want to die to end all slavery, everywhere? Better to just have the speedboat. What if you wished for a magic speedboat that could itself end all slavery everywhere
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2019 14:52
|
|
