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Goons have been recommending marko kloos's Frontlines series for now, but I feel like it is worth talking about the way the series ends, now that it has been a while. imo it is not until the final book's conclusion that kloos delivers his final thesis and rebuke of the ringo/kratman/correia way of thought. a take you hear a lot with alien/monster stories is like..."it's not really a war, the enemies aren't people, they're more like a natural disaster or a hazard that has to be managed". This may generally be true in an in-universe sense, but, in most of these stories, the grim and fierce determination with which the protagonists dedicate themselves to vanquishing the enemy still ends up evoking the awful religious and ideological wars of history. For all that the conflict is meant to be impersonal, you still end up with these vengeance narratives where the protagonists must mold both themselves and their societies into unfeeling, unstoppable weapons of war in order to crush the threat. Which is...dubious ideology. In the best case, the protagonist gets hosed up and brainbroke by this process, so you at least get the conclusion that these situations should be avoided if possible. In more grotesque cases the protagonist is rewarded for shouldering this burden and gets to become admiral-emperor and have a teen harem or whatever the author is into. But whatever the case may be, its the norm in the subgenre that all conflicts must lead inexorably to total victory at any personal, moral or social cost to the heroes. In the end of Frontlines, however, the protagonists get home from their latest inconclusive mission, calmly evaluate where they are in their lives and careers, decide they've Done Their Part and that the war-front has basically stabilized to the point that human extinction is unlikely, and elect to retire. It's deeply anticlimactic, sure, but I think you can argue that the concept of a climax, in the context of military fiction, is inherently perverse. It's really all of our most dangerous ideologies that imagine a final cosmic clash at the end of which everything will be settled. it is impossible to imagine the protagonists of a weber or ringo series doing this even the supposed political moderate eric flint would probably not allow it Ultimately I think this is the only way to actually do an alien/monster invasion story, or a civilization-under-siege story, without evoking the spectre of fascism. In Kloos' series, the threat is sincerely treated like some sort of natural disaster - something you need to deal with, something you develop new systems and technologies to mitigate, but ultimately not something to be attacked with consuming annihilatory zeal ToxicFrog posted:(The latter in particular gets bonus points from me for starting with "Earth has been conquered by aliens, and you, the captain of our one surviving warship, must escape into space and return one day to liberate us!", and ending the first book with the captain in question deciding that surrendering to the aliens is the only reasonable course of action, and spending most of book two trying to simultaneously deal with integration into the alien governance and military structures and convince the die-hard factions of the human resistance to come in from the cold.) have you read eric flint and kathy wentworth's Jao Empire books? If you enjoy Duchy of Terra for its politics I think you would find them interesting PupsOfWar fucked around with this message at 20:42 on Aug 25, 2019 |
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Aug 25, 2019 20:34
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Deptfordx posted:Has he ever been banned from here? in the ringo/kratman novel about the posleen invasion of Panama, there's this totally out-of-left-field section where an otherwise irrelevent PoV character just randomly starts dumping on some irl army officer who was stationed in Panama in the 1980s, almost certainly a grudge Kratman developed while he himself was stationed there said PoV never appears or does anything again the thing he's complaining about does not factor into the plot its just this totally contextless diss track in the middle of the novel its the most insane thing I've ever read in a book, and I've read both Behold a Pale Horse and the notorious essay at the back of that same ringo/kratman collab Tom's still hoppin' mad that someone hosed up the architecture of a temp-built barracks building in Fort Davis 40 years ago
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Aug 25, 2019 20:56
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PupsOfWar posted:in the ringo/kratman novel about the posleen invasion of Panama, there's this totally out-of-left-field section where an otherwise irrelevent PoV character just randomly starts dumping on some irl army officer who was stationed in Panama in the 1980s, almost certainly a grudge Kratman developed while he himself was stationed there Kratman is 100% grudges. One of his stories is just entirely him making GBS threads on this transperson who Let's Read'd his stories on one of the scifi forums, I forget which.
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Aug 25, 2019 21:09
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The Panama side story might be the shittest Ringo novel ever that isnt BDSM Tom Clancy. The afterword is truly schizophrenic
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Aug 26, 2019 00:31
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Kchama posted:Kratman is 100% grudges. One of his stories is just entirely him making GBS threads on this transperson who Let's Read'd his stories on one of the scifi forums, I forget which. Of course, there's a new spin-off site these days, after the right-wing mods on spacebattles got caught making a safe space to teach unfairly-treated right-wing posters how to use terms like "dindu" instead of more common slurs, so they wouldn't have to be banned. I wonder if Kratman'll get an account there, and if they'll welcome him for triggering the libs, or still have some taste? 90s Cringe Rock fucked around with this message at 07:40 on Aug 26, 2019 |
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Aug 26, 2019 07:37
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Larry Parrish posted:The Panama side story might be the shittest Ringo novel ever that isnt BDSM Tom Clancy. The afterword is truly schizophrenic in an abstract structural sense the panama book may indeed be the worst in reality however it is hard to get over the sheer incredulity of the nazi book i still periodically think about it and go "what the gently caress" while I am just sitting in the woods, in a stream or in a cave or tunnel, minding my own business - this thought arrives powerful but unbidden even when i should be protected from it by remoteness or many yards of granite PupsOfWar fucked around with this message at 13:47 on Aug 26, 2019 |
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Aug 26, 2019 13:30
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90s Cringe Rock posted:Of course, there's a new spin-off site these days, after the right-wing mods on spacebattles got caught making a safe space to teach unfairly-treated right-wing posters how to use terms like "dindu" instead of more common slurs, so they wouldn't have to be banned. lol, what?? Was there like a secret subforum they'd invite people to or was it just coaching via PM or...? How did they get exposed?
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Aug 26, 2019 14:21
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Farmer Crack-rear end posted:lol, what?? Eventually someone had had enough and exposed them... with some lovely editing and at least one fake screenshot, but a) the posts that did exist were terrible and b) a bunch of private PM regulars showed up to defend themselves and own the libs and did exactly as badly as you'd expect - that's where the "no, stop saying the n-word, say dindu!" thing came from, it was willingly posted in defense of the PM. Currently the big discussion thread is closed while the admins sort through the whole thread and decide who gets banned. Some of the involved mods stepped down, and the staff said they were sad to see them go and wished them the best, which wasn't exactly good for appeasing the bloodthirsty masses. New site's called The Sietch. QQ (the loli guro erotica-friendly spin-off) bans modern politics (in a way that makes the site veer right and full of assholes), so it wasn't a safe enough space for them.
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Aug 26, 2019 14:34
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90s Cringe Rock posted:Athene, SpaceBattles/Sufficient Velocity. It's the story where the bolo knock-off has orgasms while in VR training as an SS tank shooting russians. I knew Sufficient Velocity started because Athena was stripped of her mod status for undisclosed reasons and then told privately not to make a fuss, which she did because who the hell wouldn't, then the mods shot themselves in the foot by refusing to disclose the reasons why she was unmodded (and the mods that were willing to talk said it really wasn't a compelling reason), leading to a lot of people jumping ship to the new forum. Guess it was a good thing I stopped posting when I did.
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Aug 26, 2019 15:47
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i had no idea sufficient velocity was even a spacebattles offshoot
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Aug 26, 2019 15:48
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It comes from a spacebattles meme that goes something like "How many [troopers or ships] does it take to beat [tougher troops or ships]? One, if fired from sufficient velocity"
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Aug 26, 2019 15:54
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90s Cringe Rock posted:One of the premium member features was being able to create PM threads with an unlimited number of members, effectively a private thread. Originally it was kind of officially sanctioned (but not publicly-advertised), a place for the right-wing mods to help problem posters post more acceptably, despite this being a terrible idea. It was terrible, and was closed, but they started it right up again. And again. I've read that collection of words 6 times now. It still doesn't parse as english to me, not sure I want 90s Cringe Rock, how the gently caress do you know/find out these things? And please share the list of links you regularly hit to find these details out for the rest of the thread please.
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Aug 26, 2019 18:18
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NoNostalgia4Grover posted:I've read that collection of words 6 times now. It still doesn't parse as english to me, not sure I want NoNostalgia4Grover posted:90s Cringe Rock, how the gently caress do you know/find out these things? And please share the list of links you regularly hit to find these details out for the rest of the thread please. The other spin-offs that I am aware of are Questionable Questing, the porn and free speech and no politics and no kinkshaming site (which doesn't show you the NSFW stuff without an account), and The Sietch, the new free-er speech site brought to you by the SB secret conservative mass PM clusterfuck. The recent secret conservative mass PM safe space clusterfuck was kicked off by this site. One of the images is fake, a lot of the rest are creatively cropped, and yet the idiots involved still managed to make themselves look worse. SpaceBattles has a long and exciting discussion thread. It started in mid-July and simmered along without attracting too much notice, somehow, then the mods decided to notify all forum users that there was a hot new place to argue. I'm not going to summarise 181 pages, but if you're new to the site's style, there are some menus at the top of the page - Threadmarks, Informational & Staff Posts - which are different categories of posts the mods decided to highlight. They also made another thread just to post information. One of the more important posts was PM user Xeno Major popping in to own all the libs, and making GBS threads all over himself. The Tom Kratman story mentioned earlier has write-up by Athene. Athene, of course, was the subject of this thread on SpaceBattles, where the rest of the staff announced that she'd decided to retire and thanked her for her service. There are quite a few best wishes posts until she shows up in the thread, at which point it gets angry. There was (at least one) SV thread, the OP of which has exciting drama-filled links to the mess. So that's a bunch of drama. In penance, some milsf of varying quality from the sites. The Last Angel and its sequel are cool stories about a crazy AI battleship avenging the human race which isn't entirely dead yet, just being treated really shittily by the Not Covenant From Halo who mostly genocided them. All the Little Lost Boys and Girls from the same author is a story of mercenaries investigating a long-lost secret research space station that's full of horrifying dead space poo poo. The author previously posted it on another site that was kind of a rival to SB? but is rewriting and reposting it. Both of these are original, not fanfic, just occasionally heavily inspired by other sources. Dirty Harri's Harpies is a nasty as gently caress fanfic based on the new BattleTech video game, involving a lot of war crimes. It can occasionally be heartwarming. Welcome to 1951 is literally a Kirk/Spock M*A*S*H crossover and that makes it technically military so I'm linking it. There isn't much written. That's a fanfic problem. Tank is a Worm fanfiction - yes, the superhero story - where the protagonist has a different superpower. Instead of controlling bugs, she can transform into a large number of Soviet tanks, for the people. "Also, these are Communist tanks, so running over protesting students only makes them happier and more powerful." gently caress you all, this is milsf as gently caress, it counts, even if the s stands for superhero. It's also a completed story, which is rare. If you're unfamiliar with reading stuff on the sites, there are Threadmark menus alongside the main post which let you jump to different story posts, and also go into Reader Mode to just see the tagged posts and not the millions of replies and comments. 90s Cringe Rock fucked around with this message at 20:57 on Aug 26, 2019 |
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Aug 26, 2019 20:53
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however that sounds incredibly reactionary and bad
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Aug 26, 2019 20:57
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Larry Parrish posted:however that sounds incredibly reactionary and bad unless you mean Tank, which is actually good
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Aug 26, 2019 21:03
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90s Cringe Rock posted:yes i meant tank.
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Aug 26, 2019 22:17
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Larry Parrish posted:i meant tank.
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Aug 26, 2019 22:24
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PupsOfWar posted:have you read eric flint and kathy wentworth's Jao Empire books? If you enjoy Duchy of Terra for its politics I think you would find them interesting I haven't, I'll add them to the list. Thanks! I'm not sure I'd say that I "enjoy Duchy of Terra for its politics" in a page-by-page sense -- it has the same weird obsession with Space Feudalism that a lot of MilSF does for some reason, for example -- but I do really like the premise that when a galaxy-spanning empire shows up at your door carrying a big stick, maybe collaborating with them is worth considering. 90s Cringe Rock posted:Athene poo poo, I remember seeing that when it went down; the blast radius was sufficiently large that people on completely unrelated forums and IRC channels were talking about it, which is how I found out. I wasn't invested enough to keep watching it and find out how everything eventually shook out, though. ToxicFrog fucked around with this message at 12:36 on Aug 27, 2019 |
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Aug 27, 2019 12:22
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Huh, I did not know there was more than one. Thanks!
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Aug 27, 2019 12:32
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ToxicFrog posted:
I blame Niven and Pournelle, Mote In Gods Eye, the Co-Dominium etc. Lots of later writers read them growing up.
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Aug 27, 2019 12:42
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my left-wing version of Paladin of Shadows/A Desert Called Peace where a radical native-american anarchist militia does a heist to break Lula out of brazilian prison
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Aug 27, 2019 14:43
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Deptfordx posted:I blame Niven and Pournelle, Mote In Gods Eye, the Co-Dominium etc. Lots of later writers read them growing up. im sort of skeptical that people like baen writers have any iterary influences at all, even ones as bad as niven-pournelle like...i am not sure they have read books that said, i think the real patient zero of Space Feudalism in mil-SF Is probably the terran empire of poul anderson's Lt Leary stories (anderson of course presented the empire as a decadent and doomed hegemony, replaced later in the technic history by the weird stateless syndicalism of the Commonality - you wouldn't get "monarchy is good" from him) PupsOfWar fucked around with this message at 15:03 on Aug 27, 2019 |
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Aug 27, 2019 15:00
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PupsOfWar posted:im sort of skeptical that people like baen writers have any iterary influences at all, even ones as bad as niven-pournelle I mean, Baen authors taking 'decadent and doomed hegemonies' and turning them into the opposite is kinda their thing. See: Weber and the British Empire.
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Aug 27, 2019 17:20
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PupsOfWar posted:im sort of skeptical that people like baen writers have any iterary influences at all, even ones as bad as niven-pournelle As I've hypothesized before, John Ringo's main influence definitely isn't books and instead is the crappy scifi movies and tv-series of the '80s + '90s...Red Dawn, V, Ator, The Beastmaster 2, KRULL, KnightRider, Small Wonder, Short Circuit, AutoMan, etc. David Weber is Doc EE Smith 2.0. Compare the two authors body of work(I dare you kchama + pupsofwar), and you will see many many similarities(I double dare you pupsofware + kchama). Start with EE Smith's Triplanetary, it's got the attrition-stalemate running spaceship battle Weber "borrowed" for the climax of Basilik Station and WARCRIMES almost beyond measure. The massive similarities between David Weber's and Doc EE Smith's writing is is pretty much why I think Jim Baen signed Weber asap to a infinity +1 book contract. 90s Cringe Rock posted:I just read a bunch of fanfic on SpaceBattles and Sufficient Velocity. SV was a spin-off, populated for various reasons - mods being shits on SB, and server troubles making SB look like it was at risk of going down. Ah ok, thank you. The disseminated by real publishers/magazines mil-scifi + mil-fiction stories and story collections I've come across have been so terrible, I'd never felt the desire to search out genre fanfiction stories before. All this stuff is new to me. So, for example, I have no idea what the gently caress Worm is and how/why it is a superhero story. Right now feeling like Candide from Voltaire's titular story Candide or more accurate to this thread's subject matter, Ijon Tichy on his 21st voyage experiencing the weird and insane life-forms of Dichotica, muttering "wtf-wtF-WTF-wtf" under his breath over and over again.
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Aug 27, 2019 17:43
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Krull loving owns and if Ringo was really influenced by it, he'd have to be better at what he does.
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Aug 27, 2019 18:44
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90s Cringe Rock posted:Krull loving owns and if Ringo was really influenced by it, he'd have to be better at what he does. If Krull was so good it would have gotten a sequel or a reboot relaunch in the 30 plus years since it came out in 1983. You want to discuss a terrible ripoff movie? Google Starcrash. Plenty of 20 lira Harryhausen stop-motion effects in it, David Hasselhoff in full eyeliner waving around a lightsaber, a grating cowboy Securitron looking robot, a white-afro mormon not-jedi, and climatic torpedo bombing runs on the villains fully operational DeathFist battle-station that deliver loads of fighting-men instead of nuclear warhead for some reason. Left out a bunch more details, don't want to spoil the entire movie after all.
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Aug 27, 2019 22:10
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NoNostalgia4Grover posted:As I've hypothesized before, John Ringo's main influence definitely isn't books and instead is the crappy scifi movies and tv-series of the '80s + '90s...Red Dawn, V, Ator, The Beastmaster 2, KRULL, KnightRider, Small Wonder, Short Circuit, AutoMan, etc. i really dont see amy relation between ringo's work and any of these films. ditto krattman, correia etc consider the relative elegance and mechanical economy of something like the original star wars, close encounters or even the 80s buck rogers reboot, compared to anything these men have written. There are too many basic differences in the way settings are laid out, the way information is conveyed, and the way the audience is assumed to engage with the work... Red Dawn is i guess the closest thing, but even then red dawn has a level of self-respect and temperance that they lack, and imho is not as thematically similar to the kratman ouvre as one might think at first ultimately i dont believe they have seen a film any more than i believe they have read a book. I would sooner believe these novels novels are written by pissing into a keyboard and seeing what outputs it creates as it shorts out Also Ator, Beastmaster and a lot of these others are clear faithful throwbacks to old pulps, a tradition that ringo and co. do not represent a continuation of even if they think they do. I resist allowing these men to claim that lineage, which they or their running dogs attempt to do all the time. NoNostalgia4Grover posted:
i have a copy of Triplanetary sitting on the shelf right near me, meaning we have the power to do this however i resist cooperating with kchama on any venture until after they have read any mil-sf that isn't Weber, a scenario i still propose the thread should bring about via intervention my brain is a teeming cosmopolitan nexus of many types of brain worm, it is hard to collaborate with someone whose brain is a brainworm monoculture if not a brainworm ethnostate
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Aug 27, 2019 22:23
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also we have all seen Starcrash already you fool!!!
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Aug 27, 2019 22:25
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Worm is an incredibly long web serial about what if getting superpowers also literally gave you brain damage, usually at best making you into some flavor of sociopath. It's good for superhero fiction but it's extremely written from the perspective of an upper middle class white person. Like nobody does crimes because they cant get a job. Especially supervillains. They do crime because it's cool, and because the lower classes are just barbarians. Our heroine got super powers by being bullied which sure whatever but wheres all the super powers poor kids got for starving or getting mixed up in gang violence on the street in Fantasy Detroit?
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Aug 27, 2019 22:28
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PupsOfWar posted:
Talk about damning with faint praise.
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Aug 27, 2019 22:34
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one thing i do think is notable about ringo and kratman is that they're both Infantry guys whose author-insert mary sue characters are not infantry, but rather Operators something you can say for olden-times victorian colonialism literature is they at least knew how to romanticize the regular infantry that's not good enough for tom and john though being just a guy who can shoot fairly competently and march a long way and take ground with support from extensive artillery and logistics chains...that's not really great for solo revenge rampage fantasies, so their author avatars must become tier-1 turbo delta ultra murdermen, something neither of them came within sniffing distance of being during their real military experiences in this one sense Legacy of the Aldenata might be ringo's most...most mature work, as the infantryman Mike o'Neal is at least a more realistic author insert than the other protagonists he has written. compare Mike Harmon: Big Dicked BDSM SEAL PupsOfWar fucked around with this message at 22:49 on Aug 27, 2019 |
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Aug 27, 2019 22:44
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what, you dont think maple syrup guy is realistic? actually that guy was hustling real loving hard before he magically got rich and I dont think Ringo is the work for a living type
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Aug 27, 2019 22:52
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Larry Parrish posted:Worm is an incredibly long web serial I believe It's roughly about 3 times longer than War and Peace in terms of word count.
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Aug 27, 2019 23:21
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NoNostalgia4Grover posted:As I've hypothesized before, John Ringo's main influence definitely isn't books and instead is the crappy scifi movies and tv-series of the '80s + '90s...Red Dawn, V, Ator, The Beastmaster 2, KRULL, KnightRider, Small Wonder, Short Circuit, AutoMan, etc. Weber's got a big thing in his favor over Smith, and that is (to my knowledge) he hasn't written a story where the protagonist has a eugenics orgy with his mother and sisters. Deptfordx posted:I believe It's roughly about 3 times longer than War and Peace in terms of word count. 
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Aug 27, 2019 23:53
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PupsOfWar posted:one thing i do think is notable about ringo and kratman is that they're both Infantry guys whose author-insert mary sue characters are not infantry, but rather Operators Eh, Mike O'Neal basically is treated like how Ringo thinks a special ops dude should be treated, right down to getting a powered armor suit many times superior to the mooks in his squad.
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Aug 28, 2019 01:20
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NoNostalgia4Grover posted:As I've hypothesized before, John Ringo's main influence definitely isn't books and instead is the crappy scifi movies and tv-series of the '80s + '90s...Red Dawn, V, Ator, The Beastmaster 2, KRULL, KnightRider, Small Wonder, Short Circuit, AutoMan, etc. John Ringo always struck me as using the Robotech: Invid Invasion Palladium RPG Sourcebook as his inspiration along with reading Alan Dean Foster's The Damned trilogy. Only instead of a multi-ethnic group of elites from around the world he replaced them with Americans, gently caress Yeah! The main reason I think this is because his timeline in the 2nd and onward books seem to mimic the Robotech Defense Force's failed attempts to rescue Earth after the Invid invade and the only effective resistance are survivors that use RDF technology, including mecha-morphing motorbikes that turn into power armor. Ringo of course shits all over his setting of mankind on the brink of extinction in the latter Collaborative books with Kratman where in Watch on the Rhine Europe get's overrun...but it's ok, we've got 100 million
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Aug 28, 2019 05:17
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Ninurta posted:John Ringo always struck me as using the Robotech: Invid Invasion Palladium RPG Sourcebook as his inspiration along with reading Alan Dean Foster's The Damned trilogy. Only instead of a multi-ethnic group of elites from around the world he replaced them with Americans, gently caress Yeah! The main reason I think this is because his timeline in the 2nd and onward books seem to mimic the Robotech Defense Force's failed attempts to rescue Earth after the Invid invade and the only effective resistance are survivors that use RDF technology, including mecha-morphing motorbikes that turn into power armor. Ringo of course shits all over his setting of mankind on the brink of extinction in the latter Collaborative books with Kratman where in Watch on the Rhine Europe get's overrun...but it's ok, we've got 100 million Everyone is massively downplaying V the 1980s tv series impact on John Ringo. Especially since Red Dawn + V the 1980s tv series came out within 11 months of each other, and that one-two punch combo was mindbreaking for guys of Ringo's inclinations and age. V the 1980's tv series had Marc goddamn Singer as the main heroic lead of a human resistance movement, a slowburn alien invasion with humanoid lizardpeople in disguise. The humanoid lizardpeople's multi-stage plans for Earth were A) strip-mining the earth of all resources B) becoming the primary Since Ninurta mentioned Palladium, the dam has been broken. I will swear on a stack of Palladium vouchers that Palladium Book's sourcebooks, more specifically Palladium's RIFTS world books + Beyond the Supernatural RPG + Rifts Conversion Book 2, are Jim Butcher's secret source material for his Dresden Files universe. Harry Dresden does MEGADAMAGE attacks by default, the central american vampire empire in Changes was pretty much a wholesale lifting from Rifts World book 1, the christian angels and demons and Norse godlings all seemed pulled stat-wise from Rifts Conversion Book 2, and so on.
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Aug 28, 2019 06:55
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C.M. Kruger posted:Weber's got a big thing in his favor over Smith, and that is (to my knowledge) he hasn't written a story where the protagonist has a eugenics orgy with his mother and sisters. What the gently caress?
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Aug 28, 2019 14:25
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TheGreatEvilKing posted:What the gently caress? Eugenics, creepy sex predator perving, and do-no wrong "mighty whitey" heroes was Doc EE Smith's thing. Unshockingly, Heinlein and EE Smith were BFFs and held similar views. Anytime I think in-depth about Doc EE Smith work I get real mad. Skylark of Space had two insufferable born on 3rd base male leads with the villain constantly poo poo on because he was ethnic-looking/on a scholarship/invented the technology the two born on 3rd base male leads stole to kick off the series/dared to fight back. Lensmen series had the eugenics lineage of mighty-whitey male leads stuff.
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Aug 28, 2019 16:53
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TheGreatEvilKing posted:What the gently caress? Here's the most egregious example I can remember:  Afterwards he eats a steak while she freshens up, because of course this is the 50s and how dare a woman not look 100%. There's another bit where he's ogling his sisters and Smith is like "other women just didn't have the same spark for him." He allegedly told Heinlein that "society's morals" wouldn't accept another Lensman book or something to that effect.
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Aug 28, 2019 18:31
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