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Just Chamber posted:I dont. And every situation is different. And obviously I'm thinking of things with more of a hope that there was a better way to handle things that this, and maybe there wasn't? This is what you're not getting man. It literally always like this. Vic, Soule, people know they're abusers of some stripe every single time and it gets swept under the rug. Sometimes for decades! Just look at how it was an open secret with Vic. Power protects power, and power ESPECIALLY protects male power. There. Is. No. Other. Way.
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Sep 2, 2019 03:51
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Soul Reaver posted:I haven't read this whole thread, but someone please tell me it's still ok to see Warren Spector as an inspirational figure and not someone I have to feel disgusted thinking about?
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Sep 2, 2019 03:53
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As far as I am aware, Bethesda still has not commented on the Soule stuff. Going to be massively upset if his name shows up for Elder Scrolls VI.
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Sep 2, 2019 03:53
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It's bethesda so I'd be surprised if they care other than which way is going to cost them the most money.
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Sep 2, 2019 03:59
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quote from another forum:quote:Alec Holowka was a bit of a weird fellow. After I posted about plagiarism issues with music from the Aquaria game (e.g. here), he somehow got hold of my email address and would email me six or seven times a day until I blocked him. He would send death threats, rants about having magic powers, and just random stream-of-consciousness stuff about what was on his mind (as if he thought I would be interested). Yeah, weird chap.
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Sep 2, 2019 04:01
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I said come in! posted:As far as I am aware, Bethesda still has not commented on the Soule stuff. Going to be massively upset if his name shows up for Elder Scrolls VI. Thankfully, he confirmed back in January that he wasn't working on the game. StrixNebulosa posted:He picked the single most destructive way to hurt his victims. It's perfect revenge for them daring to go public with what they suffered. Yeah. This is the part that gets to me. It might not been his intent, but he's become a martyr in the eyes of Gamergaters and anyone who's against the #MeToo movement and especially anyone who dislikes Zoe Quinn. 
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Sep 2, 2019 04:01
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StrixNebulosa posted:He picked the single most destructive way to hurt his victims. It's perfect revenge for them daring to go public with what they suffered. They would have done so anyway. What, you think the same kind of nothings who lashed out at Quinn years ago for less were going to be quiet? They're going tio yell and threaten and poo poo themselves anyway, regardless of whether this fucker killed himself or not. I don't understand why you think these assholes somehow wouldn't react to Quinn going public.
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Sep 2, 2019 04:01
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Vandar posted:Thankfully, he confirmed back in January that he wasn't working on the game. Thank gently caress, now if we can just get Todd Howard off the game. Not because of any harassment allegations, there are none that i'm aware of, but because he is an ugly goblin.
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Sep 2, 2019 04:02
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StrixNebulosa posted:He picked the single most destructive way to hurt his victims. It's perfect revenge for them daring to go public with what they suffered. I can guarantee you he wasn't thinking about them, or probably anyone else. The path of the destructive thoughts that leads to suicides almost always travels down the path of self-immolation before hitting resignation and giving in. Acting like he's some evil puppetmaster cartoon character throwing himself off a bridge in order to spite the heroes is childish dehumanization. He was a mentally unwell dude with broken, unhealthy views on what relationships are. Captain Oblivious posted:This is what you're not getting man. It literally always like this. Vic, Soule, people know they're abusers of some stripe every single time and it gets swept under the rug. Sometimes for decades! Just look at how it was an open secret with Vic. Power protects power, and power ESPECIALLY protects male power. A lot of what leads to poo poo like this is corporate culture, and the bystander effect. People feel uncomfortable or are worried about their own position being threatened, so they don't say anything, even if they recognize what's happening. The Soule stuff is an example. I don't know what can be done about it other than continuing to speak up, and hopefully the #metoo gaming stuff will lead to people being more willing to do so, especially if they see it happening.
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Sep 2, 2019 04:03
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Panderfringe posted:They would have done so anyway. What, you think the same kind of nothings who lashed out at Quinn years ago for less were going to be quiet? They're going tio yell and threaten and poo poo themselves anyway, regardless of whether this fucker killed himself or not. I don't understand why you think these assholes somehow wouldn't react to Quinn going public. His death gives them more credibility in the eyes of melts who think that it's the only actual bad thing that's happened. The hardcore chuds sure but I mean look at the parade of "it's gone too far now" very concerned reasonable person nonsense we've been getting.
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Sep 2, 2019 04:03
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If people genuinely want "cancel culture" to stop being a thing the only way to do that is to provide victims of abuse an actual effective network of options which they can partake of that provides meaningful change, restitution, and justice. All the people who have the financial and political capital to make something like that a reality aren't interested in doing that though, in large part because many of them are abusers who benefit from the current dysfunctional system, so this is what they get to deal with now. There's been every chance, every opportunity, for people in power to make things better and they've decided not to. Insisting that victims continue to bash their heads against that same dysfunctional system despite how little it actually helps anyone is functionally indistinguishable from victim blaming.Captain Oblivious posted:This is what you're not getting man. It literally always like this. Vic, Soule, people know they're abusers of some stripe every single time and it gets swept under the rug. Sometimes for decades! Just look at how it was an open secret with Vic. Power protects power, and power ESPECIALLY protects male power.
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Sep 2, 2019 04:09
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Just Chamber posted:It isn't simply being "blasted on twitter", that poo poo becomes headlines in articles on hundreds of websites, it becomes searchable for every future employer for the rest of that persons life. There is already a crisis of people's lives being ruined, and yet some people would prefer to focus on the embarrassment and shame suffered by the accused. Every single person listed in the first response to OP has backup. Zoe Quinn is only one of many people who named her harasser, yet all the blame is focused on her. We haven't seen (yet, I'm sure it will eventually happen) unsupported allegations. We've, instead, seen a huge sigh of relief as survivors say, "Oh, my God, I thought it was just me." Hence, again #MeToo. Why is it, that so many people, looking at a person saying "Fred raped me", empathize not with being raped, but with the pains Fred must suffer for being accused?
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Sep 2, 2019 04:22
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Arsenic Lupin posted:Why is it, that so many people, looking at a person saying "Fred raped me", empathize not with being raped, but with the pains Fred must suffer for being accused? Because deep down they worry that their own lovely behavior will get dragged into the light one of these days.
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Sep 2, 2019 04:35
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That or some pathological fetishization of the process of the legal system regardless of its actual efficacy or outcomes, or even its inherent ability to tackle wrongs that by their nature do not leave physical evidence or third party witnesses most of the time. Some things you just can't prove by pointing a microscope at it. Some things you just gotta trust that when a lot of people come forward, that's proof enough. Cos if you demand indisputable physical proof you're just giving carte blanche to any behaviour no matter how destructive that doesn't leave physical proof. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 04:41 on Sep 2, 2019 |
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Sep 2, 2019 04:39
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That and it makes you look like the smart one who doesn’t take sides, just looking at the info man.
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Sep 2, 2019 04:41
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I wouldn't go that far, but I do think it's the Voight-Kampf test of our time. "Alex says that Dylan raped them. You concentrate on how dreadfully this accusation affects Dylan. Why?"
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Sep 2, 2019 04:46
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Kai Tave posted:Because deep down they worry that their own lovely behavior will get dragged into the light one of these days. Alternatively - and I believe, more commonly - they may value the abuser's creations/contributions more than they care about the suffering of the abused, and are more concerned about the potential loss of the abuser's ability to produce those creations/contributions than they are about the victim receiving justice and no further victims being created. See also how goddamn hard it is to drag sex pests from Hollywood/the music industry/etc into the light of day until extremely recently. After all, who cares that so and so sexually assaulted someone? They make great music/movies/video games/youtube videos!
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Sep 2, 2019 04:47
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Arsenic Lupin posted:Why is it, that so many people, looking at a person saying "Fred raped me", empathize not with being raped, but with the pains Fred must suffer for being accused? hail satan
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Sep 2, 2019 04:52
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so hypothetically even if zoe quinn had assembled the perfect body of evidence that factually proved he was guilty of these crimes and presented it to the police and he actually got arrested how would this not have made him kill himself?
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Sep 2, 2019 05:00
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and also the thing people are missing is that he was running his own company. you cant email his bosses to fire him. like what you being a rapist i think you are one sent from my ipad touch re: you being a rapist oh cool i hadnt considered that, ill fire myself sent from my zune so the only reasonable method of preventing damage is to warn potential employees, coworkers, and industry people who might run into him. but somehow in a way that isnt public? whisper networks inevitably dont find people for whatever reason, and they never reach people with any power. so hed just keep being in the industry. like there are situations where the 'go to someone else' argument might, possibly, maybe, apply. but what the hell is supposed to happen here?
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Sep 2, 2019 05:03
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Endorph posted:so hypothetically even if zoe quinn had assembled the perfect body of evidence that factually proved he was guilty of these crimes and presented it to the police and he actually got arrested Yeah I commented on this upthread a bit and I don't get it either. If the person was willing to kill himself over being twitter mobbed or whatever, what on earth makes someone think they wouldn't have killed themselves if they got literally put on trial with the threat of jail time or other judicial consequences?
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Sep 2, 2019 05:03
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Suicide is complicated as gently caress. Actual researchers say that you can't tell what "caused" a suicide, because the most dramatic incident immediately preceding a suicide didn't create the emotional climate that made the idea attractive. I can be sad that somebody killed themselves, and I am, without saying that it's somebody's fault they did so.
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Sep 2, 2019 05:20
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Endorph posted:oh cool i hadnt considered that, ill fire myself I mean he did, so in this specific example it worked out in the end
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Sep 2, 2019 05:23
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Arsenic Lupin posted:I wouldn't go that far, but I do think it's the Voight-Kampf test of our time. because you and Dylan are both straight white men, and straight white men are not inherently taught in society to empathize with non-straight, non-white, non-men
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Sep 2, 2019 05:30
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Arsenic Lupin posted:And again, you're ignoring that Zoe Quinn, and Leigh Alexander, and Mina Vanir, and a whole bunch of other people who didn't go to Twitter, are living with lifelong consequences of abuse. Other people have testified that they left the industry because of sexual harassment, and because of famous people who blackened their names. Those creators are gone for good. Those harassment and assault survivors are survivors for good. No one is ignoring it. Hoping that there is another way that this could have been handled, even if in the end there wasn't, isn't ignoring the victims at all nor saying that they haven't had to suffer terribly or that their lives weren't ruined or damage. They come first, having their stories told and out there in whichever is the effective degree is important, having them receive help for their trauma comes first. But the guy loving died, it wasn't like he just had a twitter meltdown after the fact. So saying it would have been nice if there was a better way for this to go isn't like defending anyone or doubting the validity of the accusations or trying to lessen them because they might be talented or whatever weird reasons people are pulling out of their rear end. Here's why i focused so hard on it, I'm very very staunch in my beliefs that criminals deserve to be punished but rehabilitated and then able to go back into society and live their life as anonymously (provided there are safe guards) as they can. Someone having all of their crimes on the internet for the rest of their life is to me lovely, as that should be a record for the police and not the public on the whole. You can hold the belief that people deserve to be appropriately punished for their crimes AND also don't deserve to have that crime follow them for the entirety of their life, at least to just any old idiot that can google their name, it's like the ability to type someones name into google if they're American and get their mugshot, arrest record etc, it's not a good thing. We have a justice system for a reason and criminals deserve to be rehabilitated and able to live a normal life or they'd go straight back to committing crime or (if they're vulnerable) end their life because they feel they can't escape their past. If anyone itt committed a murder i'd want you to go to prison, but i'd want you to emerge from the other side of it. Now in the case of Alex and similar like those being accused, perhaps this was the only way for things to go, but of course it isn't a big leap to see it happening to other criminals for other things that could be handled in better ways. But for Alex, the guy did an awful thing, and he deserved to face consequences for his actions, and he clearly needed severe mental help if his brother's words about him are to go by, it's understandable that those accusing him felt this was their only resort, and it's a sad state of affairs that we as a society are where we are that this was the way it went, but it's not crazy to look at the end result being a man killing himself and wondering if there was a better way, even if the conclusion is there wasn't. As for if Alex would have committed suicide if this had been handled by the police in an ideal world, who can really say? Maybe in that instance it might have been exposed to a relatively small number of people he knew, he'd have served time, but he could have received help and felt he could get back into a small role somewhere and continue his work, but as I imagine this dude lived in his small industry, internet focused bubble, having his crime exposed to the world and having the whole internet turn against him likely led to his decision. But again, sadly in hindsight this seems like it was the only way it could be exposed. Just Chamber fucked around with this message at 05:40 on Sep 2, 2019 |
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Sep 2, 2019 05:37
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You do not have a justice system to rehabilitate criminals, you have a justice system for several reasons but the welfare of criminals or the public at large is not one of them.
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Sep 2, 2019 05:44
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I've made the choice to go to social media about a predator before. The first time someone definitely knew and could have done something about his behaviour was 20 years prior to that, when he was quietly allowed to resign from being the leader of a youth branch of an organisation after sleeping with a 15 year old. Most of the others there didn't even know what had happened. My own decision to come forward about my experiences was after I'd been speaking to police who were investigating allegations of a relationship with another teen, which ended up with the lead investigator telling me that she knew he was guilty, but crown prosecution services felt they didn't have enough evidence for a trial, and "Unfortunately we have to wait until he slips up during a future offence. Because he will reoffend." Nobody takes these accusations to social media lightly. But when other approaches don't work, and you don't want to see anyone else go through what you did, what else can you do?
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Sep 2, 2019 05:46
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Kanos posted:Alternatively - and I believe, more commonly - they may value the abuser's creations/contributions more than they care about the suffering of the abused, and are more concerned about the potential loss of the abuser's ability to produce those creations/contributions than they are about the victim receiving justice and no further victims being created. Yeah this has come up a fair bunch in regards to the tabletop RPG hobby/industry having its own #MeToo moment with Zak S. being outed as a rapist and abuser by his longtime (now former) girlfriend. For like a decade it was basically acknowledged that Zak was a lovely and insufferable person who would direct his fans to stalk and harass people he didn't like, he kept grudge lists, he sockpuppeted under other peoples' names, but all sorts of people just quietly brushed it off for a variety of reasons, one of which was "oh it's just haters jealous of his work." He won awards for his stuff, he got invited to contribute on big name RPG projects like the newest edition of Dungeons & Dragons and collaborated on some tie-in digital game for the newest edition of Vampire after Paradox Studios acquired the rights. Then the girlfriend he had basically used as a human shield to deflect all sorts of accusations of impropriety over the years came out and said "Zak is a rapist and abuser" and finally, finally that was enough to get people to wash their hands of him en masse, but even then there was this undercurrent of "man it's such a shame this person who wrote these games I liked turned out to be such a lovely, terrible excuse for a human being" whereupon it was very rightly pointed out by others that what's actually a shame is all the people who quit the hobby because someone as thoroughly toxic as Zak was allowed to remain an industry figurehead for so long. What about their creations and contributions? What about all the stuff they could have made? Well now we'll never know, because the abuse was allowed to steep into things to the point that it forced numerous people out so a serial harasser could remain in. The poster who said this probably isn't the first games industry suicide that's a result of abuse, just the first one that's gone public, is bang on the money. I'm not going to say "man I'm glad this guy killed himself" because I'm not, I think it hurts more people in the long run than anything, but I am absolutely unsympathetic to the idea that cancel culture "ruins abusers' lives." These people ruin lives everywhere they go and nobody gave two shits about it until wide-reaching social pressure finally coalesced enough to force the issue into public scrutiny. They're reaping what they've sown. If you don't want to be cancelled, don't be a sex pest, it's not super hard.
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Sep 2, 2019 05:48
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If you're writing a lot of words to say how nice it would have been for there to be a perfect solution and going on about how the justice system maybe could have solved it despite overhwhelming evidence to the contrary and I guess maybe it had to be this way but I feel really bad about it wouldn't it just be nice if things were better, then yes what you're actually doing is complaining about the necessary attempts at self emancipation being undertaken by abuse victims in an environment that is provably hostile to them institutionally. Don't go "oh maybe it could have been necessary but I would like it if it was this other way". Decide whether it was necessary or not. Commit to a position, because if you just try to weasel through how much you don't like the situation (especially that the abuser died that's the real tragedy) that is not going to engender a charitable reading of what you're writing.
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Sep 2, 2019 05:51
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OwlFancier posted:You do not have a justice system to rehabilitate criminals, you have a justice system for several reasons but the welfare of criminals or the public at large is not one of them. Imagine someone in 2019 unironically thinking the justice system works in any way, shape, or form. Imagine how willfully ignorant of all the evidence to the contrary you have to be to think like that. It's genuinely astounding.
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Sep 2, 2019 05:51
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OwlFancier posted:You do not have a justice system to rehabilitate criminals, you have a justice system for several reasons but the welfare of criminals or the public at large is not one of them. Ideally. I'm not commentating on the US system. As I said earlier my ex was a probation officer in the UK and those convicted of crimes like Alex's, or even more severe sexual ones were sentenced and during probation sent to mandatory groups dealing with what they did, making them face it, going through their past etc, all with the hope they'd come out able to sympathize with their victims, able to understand their mentality, why they did what they did, being confronted by the damage they caused etc, they'd also be recommended and passed into the mental health system if that was deemed as needed. Again this is ideally, and if the system works and doesn't fail those it holds, which I admit it sadly often does, especially when it comes to certain crimes, people from certain backgrounds etc. It can do good and she told me about many positive cases. Though she also hated how much their hands were tied due to budget or red tape and having to watch people slip through the cracks.
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Sep 2, 2019 05:53
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Oh Zak S finally got thrown out of tabletop games? About loving time.
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Sep 2, 2019 05:54
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Just Chamber, the core problem that you seem to be skating around is that knowledge of the crime being contained to a small number of people is explicitly part of the problem and why this kind of thing keeps happening. If someone is a sexual abuser and only a small group of people know and keep that stuff under lock and key, it's incredibly easy for that person to abuse again in the future in another environment where no one is prepared for it because the knowledge that the guy is an abuser didn't get out beyond a tiny bubble, and then the problem repeats itself. If you abuse someone like this, you deserve to have your reputation destroyed and have to live with those consequences for the rest of your life. The abused person is forced to, so why shouldn't the abuser?
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Sep 2, 2019 05:55
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Just Chamber posted:Ideally. I'm not commentating on the US system. As I said earlier my ex was a probation officer in the UK and those convicted of crimes like Alex's, or even more severe sexual ones were sentenced and during probation sent to mandatory groups dealing with what they did, making them face it, going through their past etc, all with the hope they'd come out able to sympathize with their victims, able to understand their mentality, why they did what they did, being confronted by the damage they caused etc, they'd also be recommended and passed into the mental health system if that was deemed as needed. Then, I trust, you are well aware that the UK is near completely incapable of dealing with sex crimes. https://rapecrisis.org.uk/get-informed/about-sexual-violence/statistics-sexual-violence/ 5.7% conviction rate for rapes reported, 85% of sexual assaults not reported. All the sympathy in the world is not worth an ounce of cure, and it very rapidly begins to look like making excuses. Why is the tragedy what happened to this rear end in a top hat and not when victims are forced out of their jobs, their homes, their lives, due to the trauma inflicted by their abusers? At what point do those attending his death with a lot of noise start to look suspicious in their motives? OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 06:02 on Sep 2, 2019 |
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Sep 2, 2019 05:59
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Just Chamber, you didn’t come in here saying “I wish there was a better way.” It’s disingenuous to act like you did. What you came in here saying was “This is the wrong way, the victims should have done something else.” Now, as for your new position: yes, obviously it would be better if there was a better system for handling this sort of thing. Obviously it would have been better if everyone got what they needed out of this. “It would be nice if there were a better way” is such an uncontroversial position that frankly I’m not sure what you’re trying to accomplish by explaining it so thoroughly.
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Sep 2, 2019 05:59
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Control Volume posted:Oh Zak S finally got thrown out of tabletop games? About loving time. Yeah this all broke back in February. After it came out there was basically a week of everyone distancing themselves from him as hard as possible along with a few "hey just because we've gone to bat for him repeatedly in the past please don't level your hurtful I-told-you-so's at us, that's rude" non-apologies. Most notably, Mike Mearls the guy in charge of D&D 5E who courted Zak to come on board as a consultant, who shared emails about Zak's abusive behavior with Zak himself, posted a lovely milquetoast corporate-mandated apology and has been twitter silent ever since. Zak has since insisted that he's going to show everyone that his girlfriend is lying and prove all his haters wrong, so we'll see how that works out. James Raggi, a collaborator and acquaintance of his, also had to distance himself for professional reasons but has whined relentlessly about it, including this gem: https://twitter.com/Ettin64/status/1158600756057927681 Literally "even if he's a monster, what about his ART" exactly like Kanos was talking about.
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Sep 2, 2019 06:03
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Kai Tave posted:Zak has since insisted that he's going to show everyone that his girlfriend is lying and prove all his haters wrong, so we'll see how that works out. Im sure there were a lot of suspiciously timed Zak S supporters in many places lol
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Sep 2, 2019 06:08
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I'm betting you 100% Riot Games is going to get mentioned or talked about in the months to come, I've heard way too many sexual harassment and misogynist stories coming from there.
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Sep 2, 2019 06:11
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Kai Tave posted:https://twitter.com/Ettin64/status/1158600756057927681 It's so infuriating. There are plenty of artists out there who aren't lovely people, we aren't going to run out of creatives if we choose not to use the work of those we find reprehensible. Heck, maybe when so many abusers are part of the same demographic, choosing to publish work from others may also give us the opportunity to experience more diverse and interesting art! Bonus!
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Sep 2, 2019 06:13
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Just Chamber posted:But the guy loving died, it wasn't like he just had a twitter meltdown after the fact. So saying it would have been nice if there was a better way for this to go
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Sep 2, 2019 06:13
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