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Endorph posted:the ironic thing about this is that the 'game journalism' these guys spin their wheels about is one of the core causes of the exact mindset they're parroting. not *the* cause but like, read any gaming magazine from the 90s or 2000s and its just weapons-grade woman hate top to bottom, from how completely normal stuff like ocarina of time or mario 64 is marketed to how they'd only ever publish letters/emails from girls if they made some minor error or weird argument that they could viciously mock them for. I dug out some old egms and it felt like I was reading a banned subreddit. To some degree I think they are aware of that. Their ideal games journalism *was* the days of gaming magazines. You can see this in their attempts to make their own 'journalism'
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Sep 4, 2019 15:55
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Kchama posted:It's notable that video games largely don't have this 'not for girls' issue in Japan because Nintendo never was forced to make the Famicom into a Boy's Toy in order to get it into stores at all, to the point that there's several popular video game franchises that have primarily female audiences without being pigeon-holed as 'only for girls'. A good example of this disconnect between US and JP perspectives is when one of the Yakuza devs said he didn't want to change the game to appeal to women, and what he meant was 'the series already has a female demo and I don't wanna turn them off by pandering to them or anything, if they're here they like what we're doing,' but a lot of western sites ran with it as 'he doesn't want girls playing the game!' The idea of a series that isn't specifically marketed for women or very obviously For Everyone having a female fanbase is something a lot of western people still can't wrap their heads around.
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Sep 4, 2019 15:57
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ImpAtom posted:To some degree I think they are aware of that. Their ideal games journalism *was* the days of gaming magazines. You can see this in their attempts to make their own 'journalism' Yeah, true, but it's funny that even their attempts to make their own stuff with blackjack and hookers often drop less casual sexism than those magazines. And they talk about people repeating talking points they heard from Journalists when they're basically doing the same thing, just with ideas from two decades ago.
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Sep 4, 2019 15:58
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luxury handset posted:zoe quinn is to permanently online, sweaty gamers as hillary clinton is to old divorcee boomers who lie about their golf handicaps Wasn't that anita sarkeesian or did they find a way to split the power equitably
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Sep 4, 2019 15:59
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Endorph posted:A good example of this disconnect between US and JP perspectives is when one of the Yakuza devs said he didn't want to change the game to appeal to women, and what he meant was 'the series already has a female demo and I don't wanna turn them off by pandering to them or anything, if they're here they like what we're doing,' but a lot of western sites ran with it as 'he doesn't want girls playing the game!' The idea of a series that isn't specifically marketed for women or very obviously For Everyone having a female fanbase is something a lot of western people still can't wrap their heads around. I forget if it was the same interview or whatever but him and the guy who voices Kiryu have talked about how like, promoting the game in Japan and being at events or whatever there's like a really large amount of female fans present and basically all kinds of people you can see from different walks of life that are passionate about the games. But that in I want to say France I forget but at a promotional thing there he was taken aback by how the Yakuza fan base was all like tough guy/body builder type dudes.
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Sep 4, 2019 16:00
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Ibram Gaunt posted:I'm not even sure how this 'girls and chads just want to come into our hobby to ruin it' mentality still gets propagated these days. I at least understood what led to nerds getting really bitter about this crap back 15~25 years ago when it was alot more open season to mock people into nerd poo poo but, like, videogames and stuff are super socially acceptable now regardless of gender or social group. Obviously the old guard of lovely adults exist but I'm curious how the younger generation are still falling into this. It's because "Hey, the way anyone who isn't a standard white dude is portrayed in a lot of games is kind of hosed up, if they're even portrayed at all?" is starting to get traction. And any game that does anything different is viewed as SJW pandering, because we're trying to take their video game titties and male power fantasies away. Even just a game catering to the female view a little bit is seen that way. Final Fantasy XV has its problems, but before it even hit, there was a loud amount of people complaining that the party being all fairly pretty (and one pretty but studly) guys was pandering to women who obviiiiously don't play FF anyway why should they get anything (Squeenix had known for a long while that FF had a not insignificant girl/woman fanbase).
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Sep 4, 2019 16:03
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Ibram Gaunt posted:I'm not even sure how this 'girls and chads just want to come into our hobby to ruin it' mentality still gets propagated these days. I at least understood what led to nerds getting really bitter about this crap back 15~25 years ago when it was alot more open season to mock people into nerd poo poo but, like, videogames and stuff are super socially acceptable now regardless of gender or social group. Obviously the old guard of lovely adults exist but I'm curious how the younger generation are still falling into this. AngryRobotsInc posted:It's because "Hey, the way anyone who isn't a standard white dude is portrayed in a lot of games is kind of hosed up, if they're even portrayed at all?" is starting to get traction. And any game that does anything different is viewed as SJW pandering, because we're trying to take their video game titties and male power fantasies away.
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Sep 4, 2019 16:04
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AngryRobotsInc posted:Even just a game catering to the female view a little bit is seen that way. Final Fantasy XV has its problems, but before it even hit, there was a loud amount of people complaining that the party being all fairly pretty (and one pretty but studly) guys was pandering to women who obviiiiously don't play FF anyway why should they get anything (Squeenix had known for a long while that FF had a not insignificant girl/woman fanbase). FFXV got it from both sides though, because I also saw a loud (though possibly not large, IDK) contingent complaining about how there were no female characters in the party and thus the game was regressive and misogynistic. (The bigger problem with FFXV was that it was clearly unfinished, but I liked my dumb boyband friends.  )
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Sep 4, 2019 16:06
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mortons stork posted:Wasn't that anita sarkeesian or did they find a way to split the power equitably To them, Sarkeesian lost her appeal when she weathered the storm and settled into making regular content, not really giving a poo poo about the chuds. A real, vulnerable victim though? That's blood in the water. Edit: Like, I'm sure a lot of them still complain constantly about Sarkeesian, but it's nothing like the heyday of hate, where idiot relatives I didn't even know played videogames complained about her on facebook. Black Griffon fucked around with this message at 16:10 on Sep 4, 2019 |
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Sep 4, 2019 16:08
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Endorph posted:Socially awkward kid gets made fun of, internet tells him its because video games and him being too smart for them, he goes with that because it's the only explanation he's been offered. The_White_Crane posted:FFXV got it from both sides though, because I also saw a loud (though possibly not large, IDK) contingent complaining about how there were no female characters in the party and thus the game was regressive and misogynistic. Yeah, XV just couldn't win there, with the all male party. But other FF games have gotten equally stupid reactions about this sort of thing. X-2 with its all female party, and the primary motivation for Yuna at the start being romantic in nature. And XIII being female led. Those weren't the largest complaints about them, but there were definitely people who just could not let go about a FF with women in the leading roles, and not just relegated to being side characters in the party and healers.
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Sep 4, 2019 16:11
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mortons stork posted:Wasn't that anita sarkeesian or did they find a way to split the power equitably Yes, it was, but they shifted their I don't know if they still get their hate-boners for Anita, because I've avoided all gamergate discussion for like the last four+ years, and I should stop posting about it in here, even if it is directly adjacent to the topic at hand for this thread. But that's the short of it, someone else can give an update on Anita's status if they know it/want to talk about it here. (Black Griffon already did so, others may as well) Aoi fucked around with this message at 16:19 on Sep 4, 2019 |
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Sep 4, 2019 16:14
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AngryRobotsInc posted:Even just a game catering to the female view a little bit is seen that way. Final Fantasy XV has its problems, but before it even hit, there was a loud amount of people complaining that the party being all fairly pretty (and one pretty but studly) guys was pandering to women who obviiiiously don't play FF anyway why should they get anything (Squeenix had known for a long while that FF had a not insignificant girl/woman fanbase). Huh? From what I remember most noise was coming from gaming news complaining about Cindy's tits and how sexist it was when someone said in an interview that adding a woman to that boyband will change the party dynamics.
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Sep 4, 2019 16:18
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Pyromancer posted:Huh? From what I remember most noise was coming from gaming news complaining about Cindy's tits and how sexist it was when someone said in an interview that adding a woman to that boyband will change the party dynamics. One side complained about that, the other side complained about no females in the party because of tired poo poo like "If I gotta have an rear end in the middle of the screen for 50+ hours, it should be a hot one hur hur".
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Sep 4, 2019 16:19
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AngryRobotsInc posted:One side complained about that, the other side complained about no females in the party because of tired poo poo like "If I gotta have an rear end in the middle of the screen for 50+ hours, it should be a hot one hur hur". That's why they gave all of the FFXV guys good asses
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Sep 4, 2019 16:21
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Andrast posted:That's why they gave all of the FFXV guys good asses 
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Sep 4, 2019 16:22
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Endorph posted:A good example of this disconnect between US and JP perspectives is when one of the Yakuza devs said he didn't want to change the game to appeal to women, and what he meant was 'the series already has a female demo and I don't wanna turn them off by pandering to them or anything, if they're here they like what we're doing,' but a lot of western sites ran with it as 'he doesn't want girls playing the game!' The idea of a series that isn't specifically marketed for women or very obviously For Everyone having a female fanbase is something a lot of western people still can't wrap their heads around. Remember that Green Lantern cartoon from several years back? It was well received and got good ratings but the suits found out that too many girls were watching so the show got prematurely cancelled.
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Sep 4, 2019 16:38
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mortons stork posted:Wasn't that anita sarkeesian or did they find a way to split the power equitably well now they believe that quinn can speak the Killing Word over the internet and cause pissboys to top themselves. they believe this so sincerely that they do what they can to further anger her, attracting her reaper's gaze it reminds me of how people believe that hillary clinton can have people murdered without consequence, and they advocate this belief when the rational thing is to do anything you can to avoid this fate Ibram Gaunt posted:I'm not even sure how this 'girls and chads just want to come into our hobby to ruin it' mentality still gets propagated these days. I at least understood what led to nerds getting really bitter about this crap back 15~25 years ago when it was alot more open season to mock people into nerd poo poo but, like, videogames and stuff are super socially acceptable now regardless of gender or social group. Obviously the old guard of lovely adults exist but I'm curious how the younger generation are still falling into this. it doesn't have to make any sense to have utility as a motivating agent. you get to righteously vent your anger about staceys while feeling justified in gatekeeping your dirty corner of a widespread, popular hobby. guys spend a lot of time keeping women out of spaces they deem as theirs, whether it is blue collar trades or manly hobbies like cars, and whining about women ruining games is just the way loner nerds express toxic masculinity
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Sep 4, 2019 16:39
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Endorph posted:A good example of this disconnect between US and JP perspectives is when one of the Yakuza devs said he didn't want to change the game to appeal to women, and what he meant was 'the series already has a female demo and I don't wanna turn them off by pandering to them or anything, if they're here they like what we're doing,' but a lot of western sites ran with it as 'he doesn't want girls playing the game!' The idea of a series that isn't specifically marketed for women or very obviously For Everyone having a female fanbase is something a lot of western people still can't wrap their heads around.
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Sep 4, 2019 16:42
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You can be socially isolated for other reasons, like games, and then connect the two in your head even if they aren't. Games become your place of safety, and you come to resent any perceived intrusion into that comfort zone.AngryRobotsInc posted:One side complained about that, the other side complained about no females in the party because of tired poo poo like "If I gotta have an rear end in the middle of the screen for 50+ hours, it should be a hot one hur hur". I once listened to a talk by Richard Bartle who pioneered a lot of the early MUDs, basically MMO text adventures, and strangely even without a graphical interface, a lot of people still play cross genders, so he didn't put much stock in the honesty of that idea. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 16:48 on Sep 4, 2019 |
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Sep 4, 2019 16:46
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Warthur posted:The classic example of this in tabletop games is the Call of Cthulhu RPG, which apparently is big in Japan and has a huge female fanbase to an extent that the fandom can not just commercially support the game line itself but also a whole range of tie-in products and third party/fan-made bandwagon products, from fan-written supplements and adventures to "replays" (literally transcribed game sessions, like an actual play podcast printed on paper) to fan comics about characters playing CoC and so on. All because it never occurred to the Japanese licensee to take a "no girls allowed" marketing approach. It got to the point where even when the old regime at Chaosium had so comprehensively shat the bed that they were on the verge of collapse, the lights managed to stay on in large part because of the fat royalty cheques coming in from Japan. Accordion Man posted:American corporations, toy companies are a major example, are obsessed with maintaining a gender divide when it comes to merchandise and marketing.
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Sep 4, 2019 16:50
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Accordion Man posted:American corporations, toy companies are a major example, are obsessed with maintaining a gender divide when it comes to merchandise and marketing. That was Young Justice. Green Lantern got canceled because it wasn’t selling toys (because no one would stock them because they still had a ton leftover from the movie).
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Sep 4, 2019 16:56
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OwlFancier posted:You can be socially isolated for other reasons, like games, and then connect the two in your head even if they aren't. Games become your place of safety, and you come to resent any perceived intrusion into that comfort zone. Exactly. This is why so much of the GamerGate bile and venom links up with incel and MRA bile and venom - it's guys (adults and teens) who feel pushed out by the standard patriarchy "cool guys get all the girls, outcasts get nothing" toxic masculinity, and rather than identifying the inherent structure as a problem, go off into RPG and video game fantasy worlds where they can create their own parallel social structures where they get all the fantasy girls (with bigger tits! and who always want sex!). Then real, actual girls show up in their space and they lash out because they can't maintain that fantasy. I mean,  is written from exactly that mindset - I had my own good thing going until loving women showed up and suddenly I got reminded that they don't like me, and then the jocks showed up to make fun of me again, so now I have to go off and make my own space again where I can pretend I'm powerful and I don't have to change anything about myself.
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Sep 4, 2019 17:00
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Girls wanting representation in games is stupid, I say, as I write a 5000 word reddit post about how the suggestion that I'd play a female PC is an attack on all mankind and actually it's both physically and mentally impossible for me to do that
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Sep 4, 2019 17:02
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TotalBiscuit did nothing wrong! beside wishing cancer on someone but that certainly bit him in the arse.
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Sep 4, 2019 17:07
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Black Griffon posted:Girls wanting representation in games is stupid, I say, as I write a 5000 word reddit post about how the suggestion that I'd play a female PC is an attack on all mankind and actually it's both physically and mentally impossible for me to do that They'll play a girl if it's of the chain mail bikini and boob armor type in an MMO. And then make jokes about "If I have to look at an rear end", and "Free stuff from thirsty dudes".
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Sep 4, 2019 17:15
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Andrast posted:That's why they gave all of the FFXV guys good asses Theyre just upset that FFXV appealed to gay dudes 👀
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Sep 4, 2019 17:18
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AngryRobotsInc posted:They'll play a girl if it's of the chain mail bikini and boob armor type in an MMO. And then make jokes about "If I have to look at an rear end", and "Free stuff from thirsty dudes". Did all of you forget to log out of WoW in 2008? I haven't seen this joke in a decade.
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Sep 4, 2019 17:31
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Squeezy Farm posted:Did all of you forget to log out of WoW in 2008? I haven't seen this joke in a decade. I still see it far too often when the question of "Do you play a guy or girl in games, and why?" question is raised places.
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Sep 4, 2019 17:33
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Yeah it appears constantly. It's the gamer version of "it must be free LOL" after an item doesn't scan at a register.
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Sep 4, 2019 17:41
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I played a female Darenai in wow. I am a dude. I would say at least once every four hours someone whispered me, "are you really a girl?" So I can confirm, guys in wow are still thirsty as gently caress and rageful when shot down.
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Sep 4, 2019 17:50
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Benson Cunningham posted:I would say at least once every four hours someone whispered me, "are you really a girl?" I flat out don't believe this. Not unless you were doing something to illicit it. I've played male and female characters in MMOs and it was a real "once in a blue moon" scenario for something like that to happen unprovoked. Maaaybe way back in the day. But everyone now (and for the last ten years at least) understands that an in-game character's gender has no relation to that of the player.
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Sep 4, 2019 18:07
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OwlFancier posted:I once listened to a talk by Richard Bartle who pioneered a lot of the early MUDs, basically MMO text adventures, and strangely even without a graphical interface, a lot of people still play cross genders, so he didn't put much stock in the honesty of that idea. I used to play a lot of these in my younger days and I can absolutely attest to this being true.
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Sep 4, 2019 18:34
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Chomp8645 posted:I flat out don't believe this. Not unless you were doing something to illicit it.
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Sep 4, 2019 19:08
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How you behave is also a big factor. Take charge or get argumentative and people will assume you're a man, while a pattern of passivity will tend to pass for femininity. If you understand that MMOs are social platforms with a really lovely game attached, it's easy to understand why people tend to be much more eager to socially engage on them.
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Sep 4, 2019 19:13
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My boyfriend plays a catgirl in FF14 and it happens on like a monthly basis
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Sep 4, 2019 19:13
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yeah no people will never stop thirsting for even hypothetical girls, happened life five or six times when I played Elder Scrolls Online.
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Sep 4, 2019 19:15
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Chomp8645 posted:I flat out don't believe this. Not unless you were doing something to illicit it. "This never happened to me, therefore it did not happen" is one of the major causes of this thread.
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Sep 4, 2019 19:19
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boogie the trending gamer did blame anita for the charlottesville protester murder but that's okay because one time anita got a fact wrong about Definitely Good Game Worth Defending hitman absolution (she didn't get the fact wrong)
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Sep 4, 2019 19:54
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I'm really, really bad at articulating my points so I'm keeping my head out of this thread for the most part, but on the topic of getting bullied I'm a 30 year old guy now and I had it happen a lot of the time growing up. Made fun of for not playing sports and playing Kirby or whatever else I enjoyed. A reason that I'm annoyed sometimes is because during those times me and a few people banded together as a nerd circle that were proud to be gamers even though we got made fun of. As we grew up we were happy to play games and enjoy them and as the hobby/enjoyment became more mainstream just "yeah I'm a gamer, I love playing games!" became acceptable. So turning around and reading headlines going "All gamers are sexist chuds" or "gamers are toxic or horrible people" it feels like I'm getting thrown under a bus despite doing nothing wrong. That suddenly I should be ashamed of my hobby again because I don't want to be labeled like that just because Gaming is my favorite way to kill time. I have no beef with anyone- I just don't like the idea of having something so nasty tied to me because of my favorite past-time so when I see it crop up I just get really frustrated- like can I please not be grouped with them? Can you think of a different term or way of saying it? Having "well not ALL people who play games are bad" just doesn't sit right with me I guess. I'm aware it's very stupid and honestly, thread, you can mock or laugh or whatever, it's fine, but I do know there's plenty of other people that share that same mentality of "hey can we not just label everything like that please?"
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Sep 4, 2019 19:57
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Arsenic Lupin posted:"This never happened to me, therefore it did not happen" is one of the major causes of this thread. I agree, completely misreading or misrepresenting people probably contributes to the thread. Like, translating "this did happen to me, but rarely. I don't believe it's happening as often as you say" into "this has never happened to me and never happened to you either." Like can you read? Meme Poker Party fucked around with this message at 20:03 on Sep 4, 2019 |
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Sep 4, 2019 20:00
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