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physeter posted:Strange days that the last hero of the Roman Empire was a German Goth, but there you pretty much have it. Constantine XI was a Goth? 
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Sep 4, 2019 18:48
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feedmegin posted:Constantine XI was a Goth? Mehmed VI surely
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Sep 4, 2019 18:54
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Big Willy Style posted:Dude loved baths His daughter didn't. 
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Sep 4, 2019 18:57
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Platystemon posted:It is a sarcophagus and was once a complete “tub” shape that contained Theodoric’s remains.
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Sep 4, 2019 21:35
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Grumio posted:Cool, it's just the way the modern researchers were pronouncing it then. 99% of Latin pronunciation in both scholarship and popular culture had shifted to the modern pronunciation that follows typical rules for English. You’ll only learn the classical authentic pronunciation from more serious Latin study and it’ll sound utterly alien to the average person. This includes people who know the authentic pronunciation using the modern one for TV shows.
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Sep 5, 2019 01:08
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Who does not recall the famous boast of Kye‐sarr, “wenny weedy weeky”?
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Sep 5, 2019 01:34
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Also it’s not like Latin was an unchanging constant for centuries until the french and spanish invented articles and the v sound. Scipio Africanus, Caesar, and Diocletian all talking the same makes as much sense as the same for Shakespeare, Queen Victoria, and Ed Sheeran.
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Sep 5, 2019 01:51
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Does anyone have a link to that Rome video series? They just covered Caesar's return to Rome. I went back like 15 pages but couldn't find it, sorry. 
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Sep 5, 2019 02:15
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Schadenboner posted:Does anyone have a link to that Rome video series? They just covered Caesar's return to Rome. I think you mean the youtube channel Historia Civilis
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Sep 5, 2019 02:19
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i have an Ecclesiastical Latin accent so thick that it sounds like a variety of italian
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Sep 5, 2019 02:20
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cheetah7071 posted:I think you mean the youtube channel Historia Civilis 
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Sep 5, 2019 02:21
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I'm a little late to point this out, but the whole discussion about Roman concrete being great compared to recent concrete smacks pretty heavily of survivorship bias. You want to be really careful when declaring, "they just don't make them like they used to."Grevling posted:The Romans pronounced V as a W sound in the Classical period but whether you want to do that when pronouncing Latin comes down to personal choice and might sound a bit awkward and out of place since most people aren't used to it. Wiht would be pronounced with a W sound. I know it's completely false, but I laughed in my head at the thought of the Roman numbers for 5-7 being said as "Wuh!" "Wee!" Weeeeee!" respectively
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Sep 5, 2019 04:22
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For sure. Well-made Roman concrete was extremely good though, and not matched until quite recently. A lot of modern concrete is weaker than surviving Roman concrete, but that's because a lot of modern concrete is cheap poo poo. If you want to make concrete better and stronger than Roman today, you can. It just costs more. Also the fact that reinforced concrete means you can use lower quality concrete and get the same strength. A modern structure with high quality reinforced concrete is far superior to anything the Romans could build. It's just a common meme about "oh we couldn't build the Great Pyramid today!!" Well, sure we could. Why would we want to?
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Sep 5, 2019 04:29
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Reinforced concrete is a marvel for bearing great weights, but it’s not durable in the way Roman concrete is. It’s drat hard to keep it from rusting in our time, let alone over two millennia of neglect.
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Sep 5, 2019 04:34
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Grand Fromage posted:It's just a common meme about "oh we couldn't build the Great Pyramid today!!" Well, sure we could. Why would we want to? Nicholas Cage isn't a billionaire, otherwise we might have already.
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Sep 5, 2019 04:34
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Platystemon posted:Reinforced concrete is a marvel for bearing great weights, but it’s not durable in the way Roman concrete is. Because it doesn't need to be. You could use titanium rebar or something if you wanted. I wonder what the designs are things like the Yucca Mountain vault for storing nuclear waste, they might have some interesting design features for lasting.
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Sep 5, 2019 04:38
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Sodomy Hussein posted:Nicholas Cage isn't a billionaire, otherwise we might have already. https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/nicolas-cage-s-pyramid-tomb Visiting New Orleans for the first time around 2012 we stumbled on this thing in the cemetery and only a year later did I learn for whom it was constructed. Personally I think it's a tacky abomination but I get why others don't. I'll accept is as long as he really does get buried there.
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Sep 5, 2019 04:47
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HEY GUNS posted:i have an Ecclesiastical Latin accent so thick that it sounds like a variety of italian Theres this science w fiction/fantasy short story about this classics professor (who knows Classical Latin) from the present (1939, when the story was written), who gets sent back in time to 13th century Paris, and the Doctors of the University have trouble believing hes an educated man because his Latin is so badly pronounced to make it almost incomprehensible.
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Sep 5, 2019 04:58
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Grand Fromage posted:It's just a common meme about "oh we couldn't build the Great Pyramid today!!" Well, sure we could. Why would we want to? I've visited the daibutsu in Ushiku several times, it's around 100m tall and would've been one of the wonders of the world in the classical period, but it was literally paid for by this one eccentric old millionaire.
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Sep 5, 2019 05:00
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Apparently Milton would get pissed off at his amenuenses if they wouldn't speak Latin with an Italian accent.
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Sep 5, 2019 05:08
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Epicurius posted:Theres this science w fiction/fantasy short story about this classics professor (who knows Classical Latin) from the present (1939, when the story was written), who gets sent back in time to 13th century Paris, and the Doctors of the University have trouble believing hes an educated man because his Latin is so badly pronounced to make it almost incomprehensible. my greek tutor in undergrad tried to get around greece with his classical greek
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Sep 5, 2019 05:13
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Grand Fromage posted:For sure. Well-made Roman concrete was extremely good though, and not matched until quite recently. A lot of modern concrete is weaker than surviving Roman concrete, but that's because a lot of modern concrete is cheap poo poo. If you want to make concrete better and stronger than Roman today, you can. It just costs more. We could stack blocks on top of one another to make a pyramid but to muster the same societal effort to complete a project really does seem impossible today. See global warming. I know that's not what you meant but still.
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Sep 5, 2019 05:28
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/nicolas-cage-s-pyramid-tomb it's nicholas cage: more a force of nature than a human man
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Sep 5, 2019 05:35
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HEY GUNS posted:my greek tutor in undergrad tried to get around greece with his classical greek Any good stories? Grevling posted:We could stack blocks on top of one another to make a pyramid but to muster the same societal effort to complete a project really does seem impossible today. See global warming. I mean international cooperation on big projects is possible, even if they aren't like as the pyramids. See smallpox eradication years ago or rinderpest more recently, or getting rid of CFCs and fixing the ozone layer. But that's offtopic.
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Sep 5, 2019 05:52
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Kangxi posted:Any good stories?
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Sep 5, 2019 06:16
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Platystemon posted:Reinforced concrete is a marvel for bearing great weights, but it’s not durable in the way Roman concrete is. It would be a more direct comparison to go between Roman concrete and modern cast concrete without dealing with rebar. Here's some people geeking out on Roman concrete samples: https://framcos.org/FraMCoS-7/01-06.pdf They have a huge spread of data, but they're generally crushing concrete in the ~13 megapascal range (1700psi) if I'm reading that right. Meanwhile, I can roll out to the home improvement store tomorrow and get a lovely sack of Quikrete that'll take that on in 3 days and laugh it off in a month (4000+psi). Or heck, I'd love to see some Roman engineers' face while watching two people cast a swimming pool by spraying concrete out of a tube like it's a giant proton pack and knowing that'll be stronger than their stuff within a week. And then to be a real rear end in a top hat, throw a concrete canoe into the pool and start paddling around. As for modern concrete rusting, what makes this worse in any random-joe concrete job is having the rebar exposed to the ground. This lets the rebar form anodes and cathodes to electrolyse the iron into iron oxide, which causes the rebar to exert pressure inside concrete and crack it. Apparently NIST did a demo of this by literally creating a circuit. They burst their demo concrete in three hours. I'm not a civil engineer so I'm pushing my boundaries on this, but there are definitely papers about that effect. I got primed on this when I was working on my outdoor kitchen by a bunch of masonry people on some pizza oven forum I was attending. This saved my rear end when I was trying to get a concrete patio formed. Not only did the crew doing it want to just kind of lay that rebar against the ground, but the person who fixed up the pool recommended grounding the pool to the drat rebar and creating a circuit there too. Grand Fromage posted:Because it doesn't need to be. You could use titanium rebar or something if you wanted. I wonder what the designs are things like the Yucca Mountain vault for storing nuclear waste, they might have some interesting design features for lasting. More mundane things: There are fiber meshes for concrete countertops that are actually stronger than standard rebar. One reason though is something of a technicality. There's a ratio of rebar thickness to concrete thickness that you want to maintain, and you actually get a weaker result if the rebar is too thick. These meshes are flatter than the thin rolls that you'd normally find. It sounds kind of silly to talk about the strength of a concrete countertop, but concrete hates being spanned across stuff. Reinforcement is there to make that even possible. A countertop is both thin and suspended, and you can jump around on one no problem. Somebody might counter about Roman aqueducts, but I believe they are 1. supported by arches and 2. are actually stonework.
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Sep 5, 2019 06:27
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Kangxi posted:Any good stories? Forget if this was hey guns or not but I don’t think so and it’s a foggy memory from possibly many milhist threads ago or maybe this thread, idk But! Some of it’s always stuck with me: a fresh classics(maybe) grad student wanted to impress his cohort, and advisor, while in Greece, and approached a ferry captain with the equivalent of “Ho! May I ride your fair maiden across this sea of calamities?” definitely misremembering most of this and possibly inventing it; but, if someone remembers the original, would love to see it again Pontius Pilate fucked around with this message at 06:54 on Sep 5, 2019 |
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Sep 5, 2019 06:36
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If you're going to try that you better make sure to pronounce the words as a Modern Greek would. A lot of them hate the "Erasmic" pronunciation. I once picked up a course on Modern Greek in a library and the author (a medical doctor iirc) spent most of the foreword complaining about foreigners' horrible mangling of Ancient Greek.
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Sep 5, 2019 06:41
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Grevling posted:If you're going to try that you better make sure to pronounce the words as a Modern Greek would. A lot of them hate the "Erasmic" pronunciation.
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Sep 5, 2019 07:49
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It Came From the Paradox Interactive Forums: "Difference between feudal kingsdom and Eastern Roman empire More specifically, the inheritance wars and incessant infighting. Why was it such a problem for the Byzantines (and Western Rome alike) and was it much less a problem in the feudal kingdoms?" lemme stop you right there friend
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Sep 5, 2019 07:55
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HEY GUNS posted:isn't it a political thing? like each pronunciation/vocabulary is a shibboleth for one side in their civil war/ post-civil war conflict? From what I can tell it has a lot to do with education, griping about the so-called Erasmian or reconstructed pronunciation seems to arise from being taught to pronounce Ancient Greek a certain way in school and never hearing of anything different. Often objections are raised in good faith and just assume that foreigners pronounce Greek wrong because it's hard. Among Greek scholars you won't find this attitude, at least outside of marginal cases from what I hear. Wouldn't be surprised if there is a political dimension to it though like with a lot of ancient history there. There's also an aesthetic dimension to it as the way foreigners speak Ancient Greek is often perceived as ugly compared to the Greek way. Can't say I disagree entirely although I think some reconstructions sound great (one example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UdyXlUmD3v4). Reading poetry is also awkward if you follow the modern pronunciation because the meter is based on long and short syllables and Modern Greek doesn't differentiate between long and short vowels among other problems.
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Sep 5, 2019 08:10
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HEY GUNS posted:isn't it a political thing? like each pronunciation/vocabulary is a shibboleth for one side in their civil war/ post-civil war conflict? I would have thought the winning side in the Greek civil war would have used the old fashioned pronunciation if that were a thing. I do recall reading about someone using ancient Greek in modern Greece and being like basically 'can I have a dagger and fork?' at a restaurant. Also, doesn't modern Greek turn half the vowels into 'e'? I seem to recall something about how there's some ancient Greek talking about sheep going 'baa baa baa' and in modern Greek it would be 'vee vee vee'...
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Sep 5, 2019 10:01
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feedmegin posted:I would have thought the winning side in the Greek civil war would have used the old fashioned pronunciation if that were a thing. There is no old-fashioned pronunciation, the alternatives are 1) the Greek one which has actually been pretty stable since the Roman period; a lot of the changes began happening quite early on. 2) Various ways of pronouncing Ancient Greek for the purposes of education in the mould of the one worked out by Erasmus of Rotterdam in the 16th century, usually just mapping one's native language's phonology on to Greek more or less. 3) Reconstructions which try to emulate how Greeks spoke around the 6th-4th century BC. If any one of them deserves to be called old-fashioned it's the first one. It's true that many vowels and diphtongs in Ancient Greek are now pronounced ee. That's called iotacism and began pretty early. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iotacism
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Sep 5, 2019 10:19
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:It Came From the Paradox Interactive Forums: Inheritance wars and infighting wasn't a huge problem for feudal kingdoms??? Have all my history books been written by brazen liars???
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Sep 5, 2019 10:26
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Grevling posted:There is no old-fashioned pronunciation, the alternatives are 1) the Greek one which has actually been pretty stable since the Roman period; a lot of the changes began happening quite early on. 2) Various ways of pronouncing Ancient Greek for the purposes of education in the mould of the one worked out by Erasmus of Rotterdam in the 16th century, usually just mapping one's native language's phonology on to Greek more or less. 3) Reconstructions which try to emulate how Greeks spoke around the 6th-4th century BC. If any one of them deserves to be called old-fashioned it's the first one. I meant more that if picking a pronunciation were a political thing I would have expected them to pick option 3, alongside trying to archaise the written language. I guess that would have been a step too far though.
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Sep 5, 2019 10:46
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i think that was what the person who told me was talking about
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Sep 5, 2019 11:02
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feedmegin posted:I meant more that if picking a pronunciation were a political thing I would have expected them to pick option 3, alongside trying to archaise the written language. I guess that would have been a step too far though. Yeah that probably never would have caught on since on the one hand the reconstructions are foreign and on the other there is a clear model to base katharevousa on, we have all the texts and we have no recordings of ancient Greeks. Ee do have an uninterrupted tradition of speaking Koine-era Greek aloud in church.
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Sep 5, 2019 11:12
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Roman Legionnaires with Rommel's Infantry Tactics. End of discussion.
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Sep 5, 2019 11:23
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:Roman Legionnaires with Rommel's Infantry Tactics. End of discussion.
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Sep 5, 2019 11:30
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HEY GUNS posted:they run out of supplies and they goddamn die He said “tactics”, not “strategy”. 
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Sep 5, 2019 11:32
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