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Liquid Communism posted:Lol. JRPG's didn't 'find' an audience of women. They had one from the start. Square has made no bones about that for decades. In Japan, yes. They were marketed towards boys in the US, since that was the way all games were at the time. If we're having a discussion where people are talking about how WRPGs and flight sims have been displaced by other AAA genres, I have to assume we're talking about the US domestic market and not overseas. The US didn't have this audience early on, because they were pushed out of games marketing after the 80s crash. They've gained it more recently because games are marketed towards everyone now.
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Sep 7, 2019 13:16
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rkajdi posted:In Japan, yes. They were marketed towards boys in the US, since that was the way all games were at the time. If we're having a discussion where people are talking about how WRPGs and flight sims have been displaced by other AAA genres, I have to assume we're talking about the US domestic market and not overseas. The US didn't have this audience early on, because they were pushed out of games marketing after the 80s crash. They've gained it more recently because games are marketed towards everyone now. And you would still be wrong. JRPGs have always had an audience of women in the US and they've been aware of it. You can probably find an image for X-TREME 90s TEENAGE WOO advertisment that was everywhere in the 90s but if you actually look at the advertisement for the bulk of JRPGs in the 90s a lot of it is gender neutral. Like here is a Lufia II ad:  It even uses the dreaded L-L-LOVE word that advertisers thought would be too girly. This was pretty common. Indeed the bulk of JRPG advertising at the time tended to focus on the fact it was huge/had an actual story/was like a 'computer RPG" That was indeed part of their selling point that they were the 'smart' and 'long' games and they tried to make people want to think they were more intellectual for buying them instead of something else. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 14:06 on Sep 7, 2019 |
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Sep 7, 2019 13:56
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rkajdi posted:In Japan, yes. They were marketed towards boys in the US, since that was the way all games were at the time. If we're having a discussion where people are talking about how WRPGs and flight sims have been displaced by other AAA genres, I have to assume we're talking about the US domestic market and not overseas. The US didn't have this audience early on, because they were pushed out of games marketing after the 80s crash. They've gained it more recently because games are marketed towards everyone now. And like ImpAtom said, even in the 90s JRPG advertising was the most gender neutral of video game advertising. Look at the marketing campaign for FF7. 'So big it couldn't fit on a single disc!' 'A gripping plot with hundreds of characters!' "You'll laugh, you'll cry, you'll fall in love!" JRPGs were marketed like high drama and epic storytelling. There were outliers that tried to act like hardcore, difficult games, but they were in the minority. Endorph fucked around with this message at 15:04 on Sep 7, 2019 |
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Sep 7, 2019 15:01
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Woozy posted:sub-cultural colonists who pretend to like Gone Home lmbo
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Sep 7, 2019 15:12
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"sub-cultural colonists" must be my favorite part of the whole woozy event. thanks for reminding me
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Sep 7, 2019 15:49
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Endorph posted:JRPGs were marketed like high drama and epic storytelling. There were outliers that tried to act like hardcore, difficult games, but they were in the minority. They don't have to be for the point to be valid, though.
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Sep 7, 2019 15:55
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Black Griffon posted:"sub-cultural colonists" must be my favorite part of the whole woozy event. thanks for reminding me I skipped over that part of the thread so thanks for bringing it up
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Sep 7, 2019 15:57
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JRPGs have been about cute morally ambiguous boys and the tension they have with other cute boys since at least final fantasy 2 and in my experience that stuff is like catnip for girls also i'm not sure amano artwork appeals to the stereotypical dude at all. when i was a more uncultured and close minded boy it was actually something that deterred me from the franchise.
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Sep 7, 2019 16:03
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Cardiovorax posted:I wouldn't call the Shin Megami Tensei series an outlier, per se. It certainly has the sales to compete with any of the other big-name series. Did... you mean to reply to someone else? The SMT games didn't get US releases until Persona 1/2 on the PS1 which certainly didn't have dude-focused advertising (as little as it had.)
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Sep 7, 2019 16:06
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Charlie Bobson posted:JRPGs have been about cute morally ambiguous boys and the tension they have with other cute boys since at least final fantasy 2 and in my experience that stuff is like catnip for girls I had a FF3(6) guidebook back in the day; one of my best friends at the time wrote "what are you, gay?" next to an Amano drawing of... either Edgar or Cyan, I forget which one it was... when he borrowed it I'm not making any points here, just relating to the statement (I had no opinion on the art that I can remember, besides "these outlines are messy" anyway, and I still think that damnit. Amano's aesthetic and fashion choices are a separate topic  )
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Sep 7, 2019 16:12
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I got into gaming way, way late. Does anybody have guesses as to why game magazines went full-on "Boys rule, girls drool" in the '80s-'90s?
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Sep 7, 2019 16:13
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Black Griffon posted:"sub-cultural colonists" must be my favorite part of the whole woozy event. thanks for reminding me I missed it initially because my eyes glaze over when presented with a fuckin essay on poo poo nobody but the most unhinged internet idiots cares about but I am deeply thankful for having that wordsmithing pointed out to me
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Sep 7, 2019 16:14
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ImpAtom posted:Did... you mean to reply to someone else?
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Sep 7, 2019 16:17
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I think this article might be relevant to the conversation.
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Sep 7, 2019 16:20
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Wow, thank you for that link!
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Sep 7, 2019 16:30
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Grapplejack posted:rkajdi is weird and lovely, yes. He's in the moviebob territory of not wanting poors to vote because they're too dumb to understand anything eugenicsbob is STILL going on about the filthy rural poors? you'd think the manchild would get bored sooner or later
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Sep 7, 2019 16:30
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YggiDee posted:I think this article might be relevant to the conversation. This is a super good article and what it says about the failure of video game marketing to display the diversity of games is particularly on point I feel I talk to my mom about video games a lot because I like video games and I like my mom and I like talking to her about things I like. I have always been a big game nerd but I also always had a bunch of nerd shame (self inflicted) so I never talked to my parents/family about games and definitely never the weird offbeat ones like harvest moon or dragon quest. Once I entered the therapy zone and started opening up about it more, my mom was shocked at how nice and fun a lot of the games I played were. She had always figured that the only type of games that existed were the ones with commercials on TV, and that the intense/violent action that those commercials showed were all those games were. It is very validating for me to see her laugh at a dumb Dragon Quest pun or listen to her tell me how cute she thinks something like the support system in Fire Emblem is. I can even tell her about stuff like Doom and the new God of War and she'll enjoy it because I'm telling her about how God of War is really just a very stern father and his rambunctious child going on a road trip and learning life lessons (and brutally killing 7000 zombies in the process). Those things about her not knowing what kinds of video games exist is all stuff she has explicitly brought up and told me or else I never would have realized this. I am very blessed to have cool and supportive parents.
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Sep 7, 2019 17:07
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A huge contributor to the western perspective on RPGs is also where a lot of the people who were making these games were coming from. Back in the 80's, tabletop gaming was pretty much exclusively seen as a virgin basement-dweller hobby, but that's the primary influence for a huge portion of the early PC RPGs like Might and Magic, Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale, Arcanum, Avernum, Ultima, you get the idea. A lot of the console games were more marketable to women simply because they didn't stem from this niche. Using PCs was already a nerdy hobby, but then playing PC games about Elves and Orcs was basically the ultimate social suicide. It wasn't that these games were just struggling to attract women, they were struggling to attract any diversity among men as well. This is why pretty much every one of these studios went under as soon as making games required a sizeable team and investment - the money wasn't there
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Sep 7, 2019 18:35
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Just to get back to the Vic Mignogna thing for a moment, how does someone telling the judge "no, I'm just not actually listening to what you say" not get you instantly held in contempt of court, anyway? Seems like the most straightforward example of it that I've seen in, well, ever.
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Sep 7, 2019 19:27
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RazzleDazzleHour posted:A huge contributor to the western perspective on RPGs is also where a lot of the people who were making these games were coming from. Back in the 80's, tabletop gaming was pretty much exclusively seen as a virgin basement-dweller hobby, but that's the primary influence for a huge portion of the early PC RPGs like Might and Magic, Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale, Arcanum, Avernum, Ultima, you get the idea. A lot of the console games were more marketable to women simply because they didn't stem from this niche. Using PCs was already a nerdy hobby, but then playing PC games about Elves and Orcs was basically the ultimate social suicide. It wasn't that these games were just struggling to attract women, they were struggling to attract any diversity among men as well. This is why pretty much every one of these studios went under as soon as making games required a sizeable team and investment - the money wasn't there it didn't help that back in the 80s the media didn't paint people with nerdy interests in that positive a light. i mean these were they days when people legit thought D&D was satanic and every comedy had nerds as either weird gently caress up rear end in a top hat pervs or punching bags. i mean i have seen people say "well yeah because its true" but i kinda wonder if its a chicken and the egg type deal. idk. i am just glad audience for the most part are more diverse.
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Sep 7, 2019 19:31
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Cardiovorax posted:Just to get back to the Vic Mignogna thing for a moment, how does someone telling the judge "no, I'm just not actually listening to what you say" not get you instantly held in contempt of court, anyway? Seems like the most straightforward example of it that I've seen in, well, ever. As long as it isn’t holding up the court it really isn’t a big deal. If it was a criminal hearing this would make arguing for a retrial do to incompetent counsel insanely easy
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Sep 7, 2019 21:10
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Dapper_Swindler posted:it didn't help that back in the 80s the media didn't paint people with nerdy interests in that positive a light. i mean these were they days when people legit thought D&D was satanic and every comedy had nerds as either weird gently caress up rear end in a top hat pervs or punching bags. i mean i have seen people say "well yeah because its true" but i kinda wonder if its a chicken and the egg type deal. idk. i am just glad audience for the most part are more diverse. It's hard to bring new people into a hobby when they face social rejection for engaging in it, so it makes sense that the people who would gravitate toward tabletop and early PC RPGs would be the ones already on the outside. I will say though, the diversity issue involved in tabletop is a strange one to approach. I think literally everyone would agree that bringing more women into the tabletop scene both as designers and players is a good thing, but women were major propagators of the stigma people face from playing tabletop. I know that of course there was gatekeeping coming from male tabletop players just like in video games, but I think that the general consensus among women that tabletop is for losers and satanists was also a major barrier for other women who were interested but feared rejection from their friends. There was a reason that most people played the game in secret.
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Sep 7, 2019 21:14
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CharlestheHammer posted:As long as it isn’t holding up the court it really isn’t a big deal.
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Sep 7, 2019 21:24
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Cardiovorax posted:Huh, if you say so. I thought formality and respect to the judge was more important than that, but shows what I know. Most of the insane power trip stuff comes from criminal court judges, I think civil guys are fine with just tanking your case and slapping you with sanctions. Besides he did way worse when he admitted to notary fraud on the record in open court, this was Vic Mignogna's lawyer btw.
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Sep 7, 2019 21:31
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That is true it’s up to the judge so if he is feeling like being a prick he could do it easily. Most wont because that would just makes things take longer.
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Sep 7, 2019 21:34
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Alright, thank you.
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Sep 7, 2019 21:39
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About Alec Howolka, has there been any substantial evidence or a follow up that he committed sexual assault? or is this pretty much open and shut now that he's dead? There's alot of poo poo on the internet, just wanted to know.
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Sep 7, 2019 21:42
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CharlestheHammer posted:That is true it’s up to the judge so if he is feeling like being a prick he could do it easily. Most wont because that would just makes things take longer. Yeah like 90% of the notes people have posted from the hearing were about the judge trying to coax Vic's lawyer into doing his job and keep things moving along.
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Sep 7, 2019 21:45
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Fargin Icehole posted:About Alec Howolka, has there been any substantial evidence or a follow up that he committed sexual assault? or is this pretty much open and shut now that he's dead? There have been multiple sources including family and coworkers who have confirmed this was a thing. That is the best we are going to get.
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Sep 7, 2019 21:45
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ImpAtom posted:There have been multiple sources including family and coworkers who have confirmed this was a thing. That is the best we are going to get. i mean i trust benson so i believe him when he says he believes the victims and his stories make validate quinns and others stories. so yeah, i think he was a sex pest.
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Sep 7, 2019 21:47
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Fargin Icehole posted:About Alec Howolka, has there been any substantial evidence or a follow up that he committed sexual assault? or is this pretty much open and shut now that he's dead? scott benson wrote a lengthy Medium post that dispelled any lingering doubts about holowka's behavior for most people. while there's no way to directly prove that he basically held quinn hostage (as is usually the case with assault allegations), he had a long and demonstrated history of vindictive behavior towards his exes, he was an unholy terror around benson during NitW's development, and furthermore he apparently had a pattern of latching onto up-and-coming game devs and running their projects into the ground with his emotional drama. he allegedly "recovered" about a year before the game's release, but after quinn's story came out and other people started speaking up, benson found out he was still pulling this poo poo with other, unnamed devs sounds very much like borderline personality disorder - "i hate you, don't leave me" sort of behavior
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Sep 7, 2019 21:48
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RazzleDazzleHour posted:It's hard to bring new people into a hobby when they face social rejection for engaging in it, so it makes sense that the people who would gravitate toward tabletop and early PC RPGs would be the ones already on the outside. I will say though, the diversity issue involved in tabletop is a strange one to approach. I think literally everyone would agree that bringing more women into the tabletop scene both as designers and players is a good thing, but women were major propagators of the stigma people face from playing tabletop. I know that of course there was gatekeeping coming from male tabletop players just like in video games, but I think that the general consensus among women that tabletop is for losers and satanists was also a major barrier for other women who were interested but feared rejection from their friends. There was a reason that most people played the game in secret. semi related to this but i feel like the sense of "no what is happening this was my thing and i don't want it to be your thing too" is kind of understandable i dont think its completely unreasonable to feel uncomfortable when there is change and new people are getting into your hobby and the thing you really liked is becoming a very similar but still different thing i do think it's unreasonable to still feel uncomfortable after 9 years or however long it's been since gaming started becoming "mainstream"/game nerds realized it was becoming a part of popular culture in general my feelings on this (and like literally everything else i've posted in this thread) are super ill defined and are nowhere near being a fully formed opinion i hold dear to my heart, so if im spouting insanity please tell me Charlie Bobson fucked around with this message at 21:54 on Sep 7, 2019 |
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Sep 7, 2019 21:51
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Well, whatever the specifics, the guy clearly wasn't healthy and he clearly was behaving like that. It's corroborated by enough by people at this point for that to not be in question anymore.
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Sep 7, 2019 21:51
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RazzleDazzleHour posted:but women were major propagators of the stigma people face from playing tabletop. I know that of course there was gatekeeping coming from male tabletop players just like in video games, but I think that the general consensus among women that tabletop is for losers and satanists was also a major barrier for other women who were interested but feared rejection from their friends. There was a reason that most people played the game in secret. What the hell? Which women are you speaking for here? A certain generation and type of mother thought tabletop was for Satanists, but that was never mainstream even in its day. I did play tabletop in the '80s (still have the D&D set of pamphlets, with matching box, as well as Kingmaker and a couple of others) and my experience was that anti-nerd gatekeeping applied both to women and men, but that anti-girl-nerd gatekeeping mostly (but not always) came from men. Women weren't keeping women from playing D&D. Non-nerd women weren't keeping nerd women from playing D&D. Nerd guys? Yeah. Charlie Bobson posted:i dont think its completely unreasonable to feel uncomfortable when there is change and new people are getting into your hobby and the thing you really liked is becoming a very similar but still different thing Feeling uncomfortable? Maybe. Telling the new people they aren't welcome? Definitely assholic. Arsenic Lupin fucked around with this message at 22:15 on Sep 7, 2019 |
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Sep 7, 2019 22:11
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the average not nerd high schooler now still finds tabletop gaming and dungeons of dragons to be weird, I've foundArsenic Lupin posted:Feeling uncomfortable? Maybe. Telling the new people they aren't welcome? Definitely assholic. But the distinction between those two things is very rarely acknowledged, and I think that that can cause a binary to be formed where awkward nerd dudes who are feeling uncomfortable feel like if they're not completely cool and socially on point and good with it from the word go that they are considered lovely rear end in a top hat manchildren neckbeards with micropenises, which only strengthens their negative reaction.
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Sep 7, 2019 22:26
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If you aren't cool with new people getting into a hobby you like just because they are different from what you are used to, then you usually are kind of a lovely person. There would have to be some kind of extenuating circumstances that go far beyond just "but they're girls" for that not to apply.
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Sep 7, 2019 22:29
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Cardiovorax posted:If you aren't cool with new people getting into a hobby you like just because they are different from what you are used to, then you usually are kind of a lovely person. There would have to be some kind of extenuating circumstances that go far beyond just "but they're girls" for that not to apply. Yes many people are immature and not very emotionally aware I agree I'd argue that for many of these "lovely people" there are extenuating circumstances that cause this kind of reaction, but we never see or learn about them because we're talking to them on the internet anonymously.
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Sep 7, 2019 22:39
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I'm sure every last one of them has reasons that they consider extenuating circumstances. I'm just not sure I'd agree with them.
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Sep 7, 2019 22:42
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Charlie Bobson posted:... awkward nerd dudes who are feeling uncomfortable feel like if they're not completely cool and socially on point and good with it from the word go that they are considered lovely rear end in a top hat manchildren neckbeards with micropenises, which only strengthens their negative reaction. Charlie Bobson, I think you're implying that "polite to people who don't share your gender identity/race/..." is equivalent to "socially on point". It honestly isn't that hard. This is not "walk into a bar full of strangers and make smalltalk". This is "sit in a room full of gamers and talk about the subject you all care about. And possibly play games with them."
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Sep 7, 2019 22:44
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Charlie Bobson posted:the average not nerd high schooler now still finds tabletop gaming and dungeons of dragons to be weird, I've found Sure a lot of people may have found it weird but it being 'understandable' to exclude people because of that is bullshit. I grew up in the (deep) south surrounded by crazy rear end bigots and racists and yet the group I played D&D and games with in high school had women in it just fine - though this may have more to do that 5 of the 6 of us ended up lgb and one trans so we had that extra layer of fear and pointed hatred directed at us. Being an exclusionary prick still makes (the excluder) an rear end in a top hat manchild. And while personal experiences aren't the norm the myth that it's just how it is, or that these groups aren't responsible for their actions should be regularly quashed for the bullshit it is. Racism, bigotry, and sexism are always the primary motivators to exclusion and not how others view you. E: I will add it's always painfully easy to tell when someone has never had to deal with exclusion or the existential fear of harm just for existing. Rynoto fucked around with this message at 22:53 on Sep 7, 2019 |
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Sep 7, 2019 22:45
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