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Endorph posted:lol at calling women accusing a guy of sexually assaulting them Have these accusers been tested to ensure their uteri haven’t wandered out of place? Perhaps that is the cause of these histrionics.
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Sep 16, 2019 21:46
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I really do not get this tortured metaphor involving a company going under because of a whistleblower. Yes, it sucks that there would be collateral to the people who supported the dude and they deserve sympathy (albiet on a case by case basis, depending on how much they knew). But to say that people should 'find a better way' because other people than the abuser would get hurt feels like a half step away from victim blaming and silencing. It just feels gross to me.
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Sep 16, 2019 21:53
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Unlucky7 posted:I really do not get this tortured metaphor involving a company going under because of a whistleblower. Yes, it sucks that there would be collateral to the people who supported the dude and they deserve sympathy (albiet on a case by case basis, depending on how much they knew). But to say that people should 'find a better way' because other people than the abuser would get hurt feels like a half step away from victim blaming and silencing. It just feels gross to me. I don't see a problem in recognising that it's an issue, it's definitely something the victims will have wrestled with and it's absolutely one of the levers abusers use to keep them quiet. But yeah, coming to the conclusion that "oh well they got us there I guess" isn't healthy or helpful, you need to find ways to support the people affected while you dismantle that power
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Sep 16, 2019 22:05
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It’s not really something worth considering. Every action you do has an effect on many people, that’s just how actions work. Weirdly it’s only applied here
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Sep 16, 2019 22:06
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john k showed nude pictures of his 14-year old girlfriends at pool parties to other ren & stimpy crew members and no one did anything because they didn't want to lose their jobs or get blacklisted. and it was 100% the wrong thing to do so yes, innocent people CAN act in their own best interest to protect an abuser but i'm just so tired of bullshit collateral damage arguments. it's brought up all the time whenever a head of a company is garbage, like with Doug TenNapel or Brad Wardell. 'but if you boycott their games, innocent co-workers get hurt!' yeah, so does not having the money to buy a game at all. but i'm not going to point and shout at a bunch of people in poverty "HOW DARE YOU BE POOR, CANT YOU SEE HOW YOURE HURTING THE INDUSTRY!" I would think that our generation would be above this, being the generation that is constantly blamed for every failing old industry. millenials are killing the Faberge egg industry! millenials are killing luxury cars! millenials are killing the prizes in cereal box industry! we can't then turn around and say 'rape and sexual assault victims are killing game studios', which is even more ridiculous than the previous sentences i typed, two of which i'm pretty sure were actual headlines
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Sep 16, 2019 22:08
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There’s also the factor that not outing abusers also causes innocent people to get hurt by enabling the abusers to find new victims.
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Sep 16, 2019 23:23
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I am unclear what these women get out of banding together and accusing Alexis Kennedy on Twitter if he didn't do this poo poo. Like if it was one woman who he publicly fired/humiliated and literally no one else, maybe, but multiple women is something even the police will take seriously, so I'm more inclined to believe them over tales of a vagina illuminati.
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Sep 16, 2019 23:56
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TheGreatEvilKing posted:I am unclear what these women get out of banding together and accusing Alexis Kennedy on Twitter if he didn't do this poo poo. The inveterate abusers, of course, want to make it so everyone's first assumption is that someone making accusations must be ~crazy dames~ who ~just changed their mind later~. So there's a convergence here!
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Sep 17, 2019 00:06
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Alexandra Petri goes in hotquote:I have noticed you are not laughing.
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Sep 17, 2019 01:42
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Ariong posted:Have these accusers been tested to ensure their uteri haven’t wandered out of place? Perhaps that is the cause of these histrionics. That's hysterical. Histrionic has an entirely different, non-gendered etymology.
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Sep 17, 2019 01:45
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I was just making fun of how hilariously old-fashioned it sounds.
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Sep 17, 2019 01:51
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-Blackadder- posted:I haven't really been following this but I just had to laugh at the idea that investigative journalism is just a journalist hitting "fwd: to publisher" on all the emails they get from prospective sources. Like, I dont agree with the other side, but this arguement was just cartoonishly, trump-level stupid. It's videogames, you're lucky if they even spellcheck it before forwarding it. Also the idea that we should rely on random journos to maybe, if they feel like it, possibly see their way to investigating sexual misconduct as our bulwark against its evident institutional enshrinement in every aspect of the industry is, well, so laughable I don't feel I need to make a particularly insightful rebuttal. It's so stupid I can't actually make it sound stupider. Journalism won't protect you from anything and videogame journalism moreso than possibly any other, it's just a mouthpiece for companies and always has been. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 02:22 on Sep 17, 2019 |
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Sep 17, 2019 02:18
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As has been stated at length elsewhere in the thread already, "cancel culture" is the end result of systemic failures of society to adequately address chronic abuse in any meaningful way. Telling abuse victims "ugh you should have handled this in a different way, more palatable to my sensibilities" is disingenuous horseshit.
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Sep 17, 2019 20:17
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https://twitter.com/NBedera/status/1174340842267512833?s=17 Also to everyone saying 'this poo poo ruins the accused's lives' It really, really doesnt.
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Sep 18, 2019 17:36
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Endorph posted:https://twitter.com/NBedera/status/1174340842267512833?s=17  to like all of this. Rapist gets his bad grades wiped and free tuition, they "lose" paperwork for an additional allegation.https://twitter.com/NBedera/status/1174340852459560960?s=20
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Sep 18, 2019 18:56
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if you've ever seen how college campuses handle this stuff, even second-hand, none of this is a surprise or hard to believe tbh. just illustrates how hosed the conventional narrative is on this.
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Sep 18, 2019 19:02
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Endorph posted:if you've ever seen how college campuses handle this stuff, even second-hand, none of this is a surprise or hard to believe tbh. just illustrates how hosed the conventional narrative is on this. Speaking of which; https://futurism.com/the-byte/mit-scientist-stallman-pedophilia “Many years ago I posted that I could not see anything wrong about sex between an adult and a child, if the child accepted it,” Stallman wrote. “Through personal conversations in recent years, I’ve learned to understand how sex with a child can harm per psychologically. This changed my mind about the matter: I think adults should not do that. I am grateful for the conversations that enabled me to understand why.” Presumably he's never been a child or empathized with a parent.
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Sep 18, 2019 21:33
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Stallman has a severe case of something similar to Asberger's and has a history of extremely awkward social interaction. He really could be considered a sociopath.
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Sep 19, 2019 09:45
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Mokinokaro posted:Stallman has a severe case of something similar to Asberger's and has a history of extremely awkward social interaction. Those aren’t necessarily inclusive sets, but it takes way, way too long for the external inhibition cycles (other people yelling at him) to make a dent in the projected psyche of someone with that large a voice. I just think he’s an rear end in a top hat, and everything else in an excuse for being an rear end in a top hat.
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Sep 19, 2019 14:27
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Lost the link, sorry, but women CS students were warned he was a creeper, and told (quite seriously) to say they were vi users in order to make him lose interest. e: Found it. He was a known harasser. Arsenic Lupin fucked around with this message at 15:41 on Sep 19, 2019 |
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Sep 19, 2019 15:29
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Endorph posted:if you've ever seen how college campuses handle this stuff, even second-hand, none of this is a surprise or hard to believe tbh. just illustrates how hosed the conventional narrative is on this. Yep, which is baffling, given that the conventional narrative has arisen in a culture where two accused assailants - Bill Clinton and Donald Trump - have both gone on to be elected President. Could there possibly be a stronger indictment of the "ruined lives" argument? Nobody gives a poo poo.
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Sep 19, 2019 15:53
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You know whose life was severely damaged? Monica Lewinsky.
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Sep 19, 2019 16:03
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monica lewinsky is so drat supportive of folks getting harassed online. bless her.
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Sep 19, 2019 16:09
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precious
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Neil deGrasse Tyson is still untouched despite accusations against him. In a shocking development, the internal investigation held by National Geographic found nothing and didn't drop his show.
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Sep 19, 2019 16:12
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I feel like gaming is a little more respondent to this stuff than other industries at the moment, but I think thats because games are much more dependent on internet word of mouth, where just about every other industry can go "ha ha not going to do a thing about it" and barring excessively vile acts, most of their customer base wont even hear about it
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Sep 19, 2019 16:18
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I think the one of the only major takedowns that could be considered life-ruining at all is when people blew the whistle on Garrison Keillor. NPR went practically damnatio memoriae on him - cut him from everything, and renamed and reformatted the radio show he founded to sever his legacy. And even then he's still a rich white dude, just now without his former career. IMO the proper reaction.
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Sep 19, 2019 16:20
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It probably also helps that the videogame industry's main customers are young adults. I suspect they're much more conscientious about this topic than elderly people in the US, given their relative politics.
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Sep 19, 2019 16:24
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Smaller studios too, it remains to be seen whether the big studios will ever actually do anything substantial about it.
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Sep 19, 2019 16:28
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Part of me says the proper reaction is their winding up in prison, then another part of me is all 'but AC(and cop adjacents)AB and the prison system is an abomination', and then another part of me is all 'why stop at nazis with the axe', and then I need to go take some more pills and sit down for a bit.
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Sep 19, 2019 16:29
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EimiYoshikawa posted:Part of me says the proper reaction is their winding up in prison, then another part of me is all 'but AC(and cop adjacents)AB and the prison system is an abomination', and then another part of me is all 'why stop at nazis with the axe', and then I need to go take some more pills and sit down for a bit. Nazis get the axe because that is what they intend for others. And the prison system definitely needs huge reforms, but the idea of incarcerating people doesn't need to be thrown out wholesale, just retooled so it is actually about trying to rehabilitate people and contain others who cannot be rehabilitated along with having compassionate standards for length of sentences and conditions of imprisonment.
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Sep 19, 2019 16:49
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Ariong posted:
you’ve confused hysteria and histrionics
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Sep 19, 2019 16:54
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The Super-Id posted:Nazis get the axe because that is what they intend for others. And the prison system definitely needs huge reforms, but the idea of incarcerating people doesn't need to be thrown out wholesale, just retooled so it is actually about trying to rehabilitate people and contain others who cannot be rehabilitated along with having compassionate standards for length of sentences and conditions of imprisonment. I know, I know...it's just, it feels like a lot of Nazi-adjacent types are going to have to get the axe, too, before any substantial sort of prison reform away from a retributive and toward a rehabilitative model will ever happen. It's just too easy a 'tough on crime' free space on the lovely person bingo card for them to give it up without some serious goddamn overhauling. I mean, that's pretty much my stance on the idea of incarceration in general, that there will simply always need to be a way to keep some actually dangerous people away from the public for safety's sake, ideally always paired with rehabilitative efforts, even as someone fitting certain mental health and minority profiles that have tended to wind up being sent away to dark holes to be kept out of sight and out of mind. Even so...ergh. I just find myself crossing more and more over the 'harrassment and assault can be just as significantly dangerous as the sort of things the nazis want to do, so you know what...?' line the older I get. Even my most radical position, of 'pedos that never ever ever actually act on their urges in any way, including any form of CP consumption, for their entire lives, are to be pitied as broken people, not sought out and destroyed (but still ideally identified for safety's sake (but without preemptively destroying their lives in the process somehow))' is starting to slip away, these days.
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Sep 19, 2019 17:10
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Jesus
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Sep 19, 2019 17:13
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EimiYoshikawa posted:I know, I know...it's just, it feels like a lot of Nazi-adjacent types are going to have to get the axe, too, before any substantial sort of prison reform away from a retributive and toward a rehabilitative model will ever happen. It's just too easy a 'tough on crime' free space on the lovely person bingo card for them to give it up without some serious goddamn overhauling. Prison abolition doesn't really work on an a la carte model.
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Sep 19, 2019 17:21
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EimiYoshikawa posted:Even my most radical position, of 'pedos that never ever ever actually act on their urges in any way, including any form of CP consumption, for their entire lives, are to be pitied as broken people, not sought out and destroyed (but still ideally identified for safety's sake (but without preemptively destroying their lives in the process somehow))' That's not even that radical of a position, that's a sensible position around something that mostly gets radical violent positions, that's always been my same thought though, like hating nazis for being piece of poo poo nazis getting called "thought crime" seeking is almost always a bad faith tactic because you knowingly choose to be a nazi and implicitly support horrible things therein, but the way people get super crazy over the mere thought of even completely clean record no weirdness pedos feels really warped and gross to me, like it's the socially acceptable topic to voice all your super whack sadism around, people get into actual for real "Torture them to death for thought crimes" territory when it's not like it's something they chose, they don't need to be pitied because they're not broken lost causes, they need to be given therapy because they have their wires crossed and have the road to therapy made to feel available and safe, because the instantaneous frothing at the mouth people get into does way more harm than good, cause no surprise, that's not gonna get anyone to admit they have a problem and seek out help. Yardbomb fucked around with this message at 17:35 on Sep 19, 2019 |
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Sep 19, 2019 17:31
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The thing about pedophilia is that psychiatrists are mostly convinced it's orientational. While it's hosed up to hold that against someone, it also means it's virtually impossible to "change" through talk therapy and medication; if that's true, you can't "cure" pedophilia any more than you can "cure" homosexuality. And if that's true, pedophiles are going to spend their entire lives being threats to the children around them. Asking anyone to restrain themselves from sexual activity their entire life is an enormous ask - plenty of people who voluntarily take those oaths, like those in religious orders, violate them, and they could walk away from the oath any time they want - while a pedophile's version of "normal" sexual activity is rape. Does your sympathy for their real condition outweigh your sympathy for their potential victims? Because if we accept the above as true - it's orientational, and sexuality is an extremely powerful driver of human behavior - it is inevitable that some of them are going to molest children. You can't produce a society that allows pedophiles to live freely without accepting that some amount of child rape is worth that trade-off, if those premises are correct. Sadism is pointless and dehumanizing to both parties, but I don't think there's a "right" or "wrong" answer to the underlying question of how many rights and freedoms someone whose fundamental sexual orientation is a form of rape should have, only a matter of which values you're willing to compromise to protect other values.
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Sep 19, 2019 17:51
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No. 1 Apartheid Fan posted:The thing about pedophilia is that psychiatrists are mostly convinced it's orientational. While it's hosed up to hold that against someone, it also means it's virtually impossible to "change" through talk therapy and medication; if that's true, you can't "cure" pedophilia any more than you can "cure" homosexuality. And if that's true, pedophiles are going to spend their entire lives being threats to the children around them. Asking anyone to restrain themselves from sexual activity their entire life is an enormous ask - plenty of people who voluntarily take those oaths, like those in religious orders, violate them, and they could walk away from the oath any time they want - while a pedophile's version of "normal" sexual activity is rape. ...this is the position I'm basing my 'pity for broken (but not inherently bad as long as they never act on their orientation-level urges ever, but expecting that of people is pretty much impossible) people but also watch them closely, but maybe that just isn't enough' stance on, for the record.
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Sep 19, 2019 18:15
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just because we abolish prisons doesn't mean we abolish secured/locked settings 👌
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Sep 19, 2019 18:33
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On that thing, I figure it's more like, jails could very much continue to exist and rehabilitate or if it comes to it, be there to protect others, but prison, IE let's lock up all these poors, PoC and so on with disproportionate sentences for stupid bullshit "offenses" to be slave labor and otherwise victimized because we make piles of money off this, extremely does not deserve to.
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Sep 19, 2019 18:47
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No. 1 Apartheid Fan posted:The thing about pedophilia is that psychiatrists are mostly convinced it's orientational. While it's hosed up to hold that against someone, it also means it's virtually impossible to "change" through talk therapy and medication; if that's true, you can't "cure" pedophilia any more than you can "cure" homosexuality. And if that's true, pedophiles are going to spend their entire lives being threats to the children around them. Asking anyone to restrain themselves from sexual activity their entire life is an enormous ask - plenty of people who voluntarily take those oaths, like those in religious orders, violate them, and they could walk away from the oath any time they want - while a pedophile's version of "normal" sexual activity is rape. It's not really a question of how many freedoms they should have, it's how many are they willing to give up. The first person who knows someone is a pedophile is the person themselves and they need to see telling a psychologist or whatever as a valid path for them to take. The choice is between a society where pedophiles are willing to out themselves and don't have their freedom heavily restricted or a society where they aren't willing and do. A society where they both willingly out themselves and have their freedom heavily restricted isn't really an option. It's not even a question of either or it's a scale, the more you restrict their freedom the less people will out themselves and vice-versa. The point is to find the point on the scale where the least harm to children is caused because it can't be completely negated. Dire Lemming fucked around with this message at 20:20 on Sep 19, 2019 |
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Sep 19, 2019 20:16
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