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The biggest problem with Roguelike Celebration is that my current project has very little room for procgen so I can't apply any of the talks to it.  That discount-over-time thing sounds like a mechanic I've seen in several board games, where the longer you wait to claim something, the cheaper it gets. After all, when you don't take it you're implicitly paying the opportunity cost that someone else might take it instead / that you don't get to use it immediately. Sometimes this eventually means that you get paid to claim something. I'm contemplating doing something similar with the tech tree in the game I'm working on: every time you complete a mission, all not-newly-unlocked techs get slightly cheaper. My thinking is that the discounts should mean that even if you don't unlock new techs to research, and even if you can't afford anything currently available, you still make progress towards those unlocks. It should also introduce some interesting routing decisions for players who try to do the "no replaying missions" conduct. In more roguelike-adjacent news, big shout-outs to Noita for, in my first run of the game ever, handing me progressively stronger wands with which to get myself into trouble, ultimately culminating in "here, have a nuke". Protip: the minimum safe distance from a nuke's explosion is more than five meters.
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Oct 8, 2019 17:37
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I've had exactly 1 win in Noita and it required personal shield, explosion immunity, and fire immunity. There's just waaaaay too many enemies with guns towards the end of the game.
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Oct 8, 2019 18:18
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poemdexter posted:I've had exactly 1 win in Noita and it required personal shield, explosion immunity, and fire immunity. There's just waaaaay too many enemies with guns towards the end of the game. Honestly I'm more peeved at the acid enemies. It feels like if a single pixel of acid touches you then you start taking 2 damage per second for the next 30 seconds at least. Sometimes there isn't any liquid around for miles and you haven't found any flasks. And the acid enemies are universally aggressive and spammy. I'd rather deal with firefly nests than acid spitters. That said, having a troop of flying gun-wielding enemies camp the temple exit isn't a barrel of laughs either.
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Oct 9, 2019 00:47
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:Honestly I'm more peeved at the acid enemies. It feels like if a single pixel of acid touches you then you start taking 2 damage per second for the next 30 seconds at least. Sometimes there isn't any liquid around for miles and you haven't found any flasks. And the acid enemies are universally aggressive and spammy. I'd rather deal with firefly nests than acid spitters. The opt-in beta branch starts you with a water flask and made harmful liquids need to be more than 1px deep to stain.
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Oct 9, 2019 01:29
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Was just about to ask why they dont just start you with a water/empty flask, thats cool they added it.
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Oct 9, 2019 01:35
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That's why it's EA, I guess. No point in getting frustrated about that kind of thing when you're still playing a beta, after all.
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Oct 9, 2019 05:01
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Cardiovorax posted:That's why it's EA, I guess. No point in getting frustrated about that kind of thing when you're still playing a beta, after all. Yeah Noita updates have been loving rapid out the gate. That water flask update came within 24 hours of a bunch of people in the Noita SA thread saying "hey you should start with a flask" and one of the devs (Hempuli) popping in and saying "your suggestions have been noted!". There are a LOT of balance/structural things I think need refining but the actual game engine is so much fun to dick around in that I'm convinced it's in the running to be a masterpiece. While it could use some UI adjustments to make the process a little less obtuse, the spell/wand customization alone is something I've played with for hours and I'm still not sick of
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Oct 9, 2019 06:03
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goferchan posted:Yeah Noita updates have been loving rapid out the gate. That water flask update came within 24 hours of a bunch of people in the Noita SA thread saying "hey you should start with a flask" and one of the devs (Hempuli) popping in and saying "your suggestions have been noted!". There are a LOT of balance/structural things I think need refining but the actual game engine is so much fun to dick around in that I'm convinced it's in the running to be a masterpiece. While it could use some UI adjustments to make the process a little less obtuse, the spell/wand customization alone is something I've played with for hours and I'm still not sick of That’s some impressive turnaround time. So, outside of the usual EA issues, is there any good reason not to pick up Noita?
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Oct 10, 2019 01:05
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IMO it's already a fun/interesting game so no
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Oct 10, 2019 01:30
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ecavalli posted:That’s some impressive turnaround time. So, outside of the usual EA issues, is there any good reason not to pick up Noita? Everyone seems super happy unless you will only play if it is easy.
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Oct 10, 2019 01:37
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ecavalli posted:That’s some impressive turnaround time. So, outside of the usual EA issues, is there any good reason not to pick up Noita? Sure, go ahead if you don't mind supporting a known ~~~Finn~~~
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Oct 10, 2019 01:41
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ToME4 1.6 is weird. Not sure what to think of it so far. Mostly feels the same, not really noticing any difference on saves. Still get hosed by stuns/confusion on the regular even with high saves and moderate resistance (~60%).
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Oct 10, 2019 01:49
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Call Your Grandma posted:Sure, go ahead if you don't mind supporting a known ~~~Finn~~~ i feel personally attacked (Noita is a rad as hell game, I love the secrets and mysteries)
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Oct 10, 2019 01:50
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Oct 10, 2019 01:53
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Voxx posted:ToME4 1.6 is weird. Not sure what to think of it so far. Mostly feels the same, not really noticing any difference on saves. Still get hosed by stuns/confusion on the regular even with high saves and moderate resistance (~60%). Saves aren’t totally worthless anymore, but they’re still quite random and not something you can rely upon. You always want multiple buttons on hand to either remove debilitating effects like that and/or consistently escape if they’re stuck to you. Never count on resists or saves unless they’re ludicrously high. Incidentally, Spine of the World is the best overall prodigy in the game and nothing will convince me otherwise.
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Oct 10, 2019 03:18
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I can't think of a single class I would take Spine of the World on instead of Draconic Will and Draconic Will is a shadow of what it used to be.
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Oct 10, 2019 03:19
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Dinky little damage-over-time effects like flame and poison will activate it and produce massive uptime. Most DoTs themselves are only dangerous if they stack repeatedly (which Spine prevents) in addition to the Stun, Root, Disarm, Blind, etc immunity that is its primary purpose. Draconic Will isn’t bad, but the low uptime and stringent requirements are serious drawbacks. Magitek fucked around with this message at 06:03 on Oct 10, 2019 |
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Oct 10, 2019 03:33
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ecavalli posted:That’s some impressive turnaround time. So, outside of the usual EA issues, is there any good reason not to pick up Noita? It probably depends on the kind of gamer you are? I think I posted this before in the Noita thread but the way it's balanced currently Noita is super fun to play but a little tedious to play to win. There are a few big difficulty spikes in the game and as it stands there's no "hunger clock" or timer equivalent like the ghost in Spelunky, and levels are pretty big. Right now its like 100% optimal to comb the first 2 (relatively easy) zones in search of every upgrade available and kill every monster you see for their gold, before the game gets much harder in the 3rd level. Doing this every run can be pretty boring, and I mostly avoid it in favor of just descending towards the exit while doing a little bit of horizontal exploration and rolling with whatever the game throws me. But there's always that min-maxer urge in the back of my mind to set myself up for the best run possible even though the prep is tedious, and if you're the kind of player who can't resist that (which I completely respect) then it kind of kills the pacing. Based on dev responsiveness and the general common-sense changes they've made so far I 100% expect this to be addressed at some point though -- personally I'm more in favor of a bonus tied to running through the level quickly ala Dead Cells as opposed to a penalty for spending too much time, but either one would probably solve it. But yeah as it is you're looking at a very fun and unique roguelike experience in it's EA state -- a lot of the secret (and some of them are REALLY secret) mechanics and alternate ending paths and stuff are pretty clearly unfinished but I've logged like 40 hours just trying to dive straight to the bottom and I know I'm gonna log many many more. It feels like a very special game
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Oct 10, 2019 06:33
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goferchan posted:a penalty for spending too much time This would seriously kill it for me. I'm one of those people who likes finding all the things, so hopefully that won't happen in favor of the Dead Cells approach.
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Oct 11, 2019 05:04
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ecavalli posted:That’s some impressive turnaround time. So, outside of the usual EA issues, is there any good reason not to pick up Noita? I watched CobaltStreak playing it for a bit last night. He spent five minutes walking from left to right, found a power-up which started killing him unless he jumped in rhythm, then got wrecked by the one and only enemy he saw. Maybe I came in at a bad time, but it honestly looks like one of the worst games I've ever seen.
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Oct 11, 2019 08:34
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It was absolutely a poo poo time to watch, yes, dude went to an unfinished area.
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Oct 11, 2019 09:21
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Jedit posted:Maybe I came in at a bad time, but it honestly looks like one of the worst games I've ever seen. lmao even ignoring you were watching a stream of someone in an unfinished area that is off the games main path right now, this is some dumbass hyperbole
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Oct 11, 2019 10:01
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Jedit posted:I watched CobaltStreak playing it for a bit last night. He spent five minutes walking from left to right, found a power-up which started killing him unless he jumped in rhythm, then got wrecked by the one and only enemy he saw. Maybe I came in at a bad time, but it honestly looks like one of the worst games I've ever seen.
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Oct 11, 2019 11:11
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oi4Me9kiirM&t=53s Just watch 5 minutes from here and that gives you the first level of Noita.
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Oct 11, 2019 12:23
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Beta2 on ToME now---DG being DG, if he at all can at this rate, I'd half expect the proper v1.6 to drop on Halloween.
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Oct 11, 2019 13:30
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IronicDongz posted:basically the entire actual game takes place in underground levels full of enemies and shenanigans. you can go leave and explore the overworld but there's almost nothing in it besides a few unfinished secrets. you essentially did not actually see any noita gameplay at all That's fair enough.
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Oct 11, 2019 14:05
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aas Bandit posted:This would seriously kill it for me. To be fair, the bonus for speeding through in Dead Cells is meant as a counter to the fact that rushing, as some people want to do, naturally won't give you all the XP and powerups that you get if you go everywhere. It's not intended as "get more stuff if you go real real fast," it's "oh, you went real real fast, you must be underpowered, have some stuff to catch up." It's tuned so that you have to be really speeding to get it, too, at least in the earlier areas.
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Oct 11, 2019 14:29
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John Lee posted:To be fair, the bonus for speeding through in Dead Cells is meant as a counter to the fact that rushing, as some people want to do, naturally won't give you all the XP and powerups that you get if you go everywhere. It's not intended as "get more stuff if you go real real fast," it's "oh, you went real real fast, you must be underpowered, have some stuff to catch up." It's tuned so that you have to be really speeding to get it, too, at least in the earlier areas. Once you get really absurdly good, you can sometimes score both the speedrun bonus and the killstreak bonus in the first level, but yeah, the speedrun stuff is intended more as a catch-up mechanism for people who don't want to scour every corner of every level, every time they play. It's definitely a good design element. Synthbuttrange posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oi4Me9kiirM&t=53s Two minutes in and I'm sold on this game. Thirty seconds later, I'm loving sold on this game. e: this is like Spelunky and IVAN were fused into something new and gloriously violent
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Oct 11, 2019 14:55
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Timed doors in dead cells are an extremely good idea that support the most fun way to play the game, and then got obsoleted in favor of the opposite most boring playstyle where you carefully clear every single level as safely as possible and make sure you don’t miss a single scroll, because the margin for error is so small on the higher difficulties and the scroll upgrades are multiplicative that gliding through levels at high speed and just moving fast becomes way less viable. They also removed/changed some perks that heavily cut down on grenade or trap cooldowns and let you use them often while rushing through levels, but now you have to stand around waiting for cooldowns if you want to use them on anything that looks concerning. there’s also the issue that only a few specific levels have timed doors after them, while they added new no-hit doors to every single level (and boss). I’m waffling on whether I want to stick with the game and try to get through 5 boss cells like this since it’s so much more time consuming and less fun than riding the speed buff and blendering your way through levels without fretting over all the details, but just jumping from 0 to 1 boss cell instantly makes you far weaker if you try to do that. Owl Inspector fucked around with this message at 15:54 on Oct 11, 2019 |
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Oct 11, 2019 15:43
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I agree that in practice timed doors in dead cells are terribly implemented and they're not useful for anything beyond cell grinding. But in a game without scrolls and malaise they might work out better. As for your question, 1 boss cell is still rather fair, upgrade your forge if you're stuck and stack all your stats into your primary attribute. If you get bored of the game start save scumming. (Your criticism is totally accurate.) No Wave fucked around with this message at 16:00 on Oct 11, 2019 |
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Oct 11, 2019 15:51
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Gay Rat Wedding posted:Timed doors in dead cells are an extremely good idea that support the most fun way to play the game, and then got obsoleted in favor of the opposite most boring playstyle where you carefully clear every single level as safely as possible and make sure you don’t miss a single scroll, because the margin for error is so small on the higher difficulties and the scroll upgrades are multiplicative that gliding through levels at high speed and just moving fast becomes way less viable. They also removed/changed some perks that heavily cut down on grenade or trap cooldowns and let you use them often while rushing through levels, but now you have to stand around waiting for cooldowns if you want to use them on anything that looks concerning. I've only done a 3-cell win and stopped at that, as I recognized it as the best of my abilities. I've also found that for doing a run through the 'easy' stages, I never have to worry about the time needed to find all the scrolls except on the first level (easy to restart if pendantic). By the Ramparts there's usually a huge window to grab everything, not to mention that Ramparts/Misty Village are very easy to find everything while moving at speed. So to me, the 'Kill-without-taking-a-hit' doors are either a compliment to those who run archer builds (in a mutually exclusive sense), or a extra bonus to those who can both murder quickly and not take hits. It's good design imo.
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Oct 11, 2019 23:42
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https://twitter.com/an_gremlin/status/1180630175089737728
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Oct 11, 2019 23:57
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normal wizard normal walk
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Oct 12, 2019 14:10
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So Biskup deciding to pull out 8-directional movement in Ultimate ADOM got me wondering. What roguelikes exist that use hexes? There's Armoured Commander (I and II) and Hoplite, which runs on a phone, but those are literally the only two I can think of. There's good reasons for that, of course. Square tiles map a lot better to the text console, hexes require you to do some janky drawing or actually build a UI, keyboard movement is going to be extremely tricky to figure out, and buildings look real weird. Are there any games that have tried to make this work that I'm just not aware of, though?
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Oct 13, 2019 06:22
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NEO Scavenger, but the only movement there is on an overworld map.
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Oct 13, 2019 06:29
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Hyperogue uses hexes sometimes
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Oct 13, 2019 06:39
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Wait he took 8-way movement out? Why?
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Oct 13, 2019 08:18
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andrew smash posted:Wait he took 8-way movement out? Why? When he playtested UADOM with people who aren't into roguelikes, everybody just went straight for the arrow keys and never actually figured out diagonal movement was possible. Which is kind of bad if you balance and design the game around 8-way movement. So he tried taking it out and apparently even the playtesters who liked ADOM just sort of stopped noticing the lack after a while. Or maybe they just stopped complaining at him, who knows. Also you can't use 8-way on a laptop without using yubn, and hjklyubn is legit the devil's control scheme, not fit for decent men and women. I played a sort of proto-game he whipped up with similar 4-way movement at the Celebration and...it was...fine. Maybe it turns out worse after a while but it's not, like, horrible. You run into some weird cases with when you're out of sync with a monster and have to wait for it to move and it could probably have some real wackiness with multiple enemies at a time. It does change the design space a bit, like, ranged weapons are stronger, you don't have to back as far into corridors. It seems like it's not an insane decision but time'll tell.
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Oct 13, 2019 09:14
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MORE TAXES WHEN posted:Also you can't use 8-way on a laptop without using yubn, and hjklyubn is legit the devil's control scheme, not fit for decent men and women. Lies! hjkl is the one true control scheme. It offers minimal distance between movement controls and menu shortcuts.
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Oct 13, 2019 09:25
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I will forever champion using QWE ASD ZXC for 8 way movement. it's intuitive, your hand is in roughly the same place on the keyboard as WASD, and your right hand is free to use the mouse/other keys.
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Oct 13, 2019 09:32
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