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I will never forgive WotC for nerfing Brass Man so that you couldn't use him as a Quicksilver Dagger machinegun during upkeep.
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Oct 29, 2019 18:18
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Arivia posted:And Flash. And Lion's Eye Diamond.
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Oct 29, 2019 18:19
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Out of curiosity, how many bans were administered per expansion in, say, the last 6 years of Mtg? And no, I also don't think anyone wants to get rid of the food mechanic, only of the card that abuses it.
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Oct 29, 2019 18:28
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From standard it was 5 cards in 2017 (in 3 separate bannings... lol), 4 cards in early 2018... last rotation was honestly surprising in how there were no bans. Before 2017 there were very few bans but they also let crap dominate the metagame for longer so its not as fair an evaluation as it sounds.
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Oct 29, 2019 18:32
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Propaganda Hour posted:This isn't true. Power Level Errata was standard practice along until Wizards changed their policy in 2006. The best example of this is the card Time Vault. The card's mechanics were fundamentally changed multiple times because lol Wizards. That's sort of in a gray area between actually trying to change the power level vs. fixing an unintended interaction. I do tend to put it in the "power level errata" box (and the title of Forsythe's article suggests he agrees), but I don't think it's automatically nonsensical for people to think of it as an unintended interactions thing rather than power level, either. You're Richard Garfield or whoever else helped with Alpha. You make a card whose purpose is to let players skip a turn now in order to get another turn later. As far as you are concerned, that's all you intend it to be able to do. Then later players figure out you can Twiddle it or do that Animate Artifact thing. This clearly increases Time Vault's power level, but it's also something that the card just wasn't supposed to do, in your mind, just like you just didn't intend Hostage Taker to be able to exile itself. (We are obviously applying two different sets of standards for templating diligence here, since once card was printed in 1993 and the other in 2018, but the principle is the same.) If, hypothetically, all they had wanted was to change the power level of Time Vault while still letting it interact organically with untap effects, one can easily imagine them putting a rider on so that it deals damage to you whenever you tap it. That would obviously chop the power level way back down. It would also be a significant departure from the intention of the card as printed. To bring this back to Oko, we're not dealing here with a case where Oko does something they had no idea he would do. They didn't ship Eldraine and then go "goddamn it, we didn't mean for him to be able to change your food tokens into Elk!" He does everything he's supposed to, in the ways he's supposed to; it's just that the numbers are too big. So pretty much any change to him would be unambiguously power-level errata. Which is why they won't do it.
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Oct 29, 2019 18:36
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I remember the Jace/Stoneforge ban, it was a huge deal because it had been an internal source of pride that they'd gone so many years without having to touch standard.
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Oct 29, 2019 18:37
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I know L5R was a thing because I have a friend who was really deep into it who has a favorite rant he loves to pull out when the topic comes up, about how the game's metaplot was steered by tournament results and how a metagame dominated by the "chaos" non-faction royally hosed the plot. Back on topic, Nizzahon on YouTube has a series on the history of the Banned & Restricted list if you enjoy watching someone go into pedantic detail about that kind of thing.
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Oct 29, 2019 18:37
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I don't think they intended oko to dominate the metagame. They don't errata cards for having interactions that they didn't envision. If they did, no card would be safe. When they errata cards to forbid interactions that they deem to be too powerful, that's a power level errata.
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Oct 29, 2019 18:55
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Kawabata posted:Out of curiosity, how many bans were administered per expansion in, say, the last 6 years of Mtg? No Wave covered it for standard, here's the list of all bans historically: https://mtg.gamepedia.com/Banned_and_restricted_cards/Timeline
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Oct 29, 2019 19:30
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Dr. Stab posted:I don't think they intended oko to dominate the metagame. they either released Oko knowing he would dominate the metagame and single-handedly drive sales, or they didn't and they continue to be one of the most incompetent CCG companies on the planet.
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Oct 29, 2019 19:39
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it should really only take one game dropping a turn 2 oko on the play to go "hm there may be issues here."
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Oct 29, 2019 19:44
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Turn 2 Oko Or Turn 3 Nissa / Turn 4 8/8 Krasis. Standard!  It also doesn't help that green has a 0 mana draw spell and 1 mana cryptic command. salt shakeup fucked around with this message at 20:14 on Oct 29, 2019 |
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Oct 29, 2019 20:07
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salt shakeup posted:Turn 2 Oko. turn 2 oko and turn 3 nissa is literally impossible
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Oct 29, 2019 20:09
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Paul Zuvella posted:turn 2 oko and turn 3 nissa is literally impossible I think you can technically do it with leyline of abundance but if someone ever pulled that off I would be less mad than I would be flabbergasted.
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Oct 29, 2019 20:12
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We played L5R a lot at school with my friend who said honour was too complicated to use, then beat us with the clan whose only weakness was being dishonourable. Also I made my own cards based on my friend’s brothers, then it turned out they weren’t actually her brothers and she got annoyed
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Oct 29, 2019 20:12
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Paul Zuvella posted:turn 2 oko and turn 3 nissa is literally impossible Sorry two different lines of play, should have separated them.
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Oct 29, 2019 20:14
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No Wave posted:Before 2017 there were very few bans but they also let crap dominate the metagame for longer so its not as fair an evaluation as it sounds. It's actually interesting wondering how much the 15 games a day at least pace of arena impacts development of broken decks. It really changes the pressure R&D is under. They need to add an additional team and clear up the process as well as cut back on the bullshit $7 a set draft testing to fix poo poo up but I doubt they will.
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Oct 29, 2019 20:31
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Spiderdrake posted:It's actually interesting wondering how much the 15 games a day at least pace of arena impacts development of broken decks. It really changes the pressure R&D is under. My guess is Arena makes things a lot worse, or at least makes it happen a lot faster, and like someone else said before paper is becoming a downside for Arena because errata isn't a simple process like it is for other digital ccgs. I wonder if they'll ever decide to errata cards for Arena while leaving them alone in paper--we already have different formats in Arena vs paper.
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Oct 29, 2019 20:36
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I personally don't see why they couldn't just have arena and paper be different and have errata digitally but not physically. It would make a lot more sense and mean the agile format could be agile. But then, I am consistently mystified by the choices professional tabletop game designers routinely make when it comes to rule writing, so (And yeah, making the buy-in for limited formats lower would be very helpful, my limited rank is miles behind my constructed just because I do my best to avoid shelling out, so I get maybe one draft per week.)
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Oct 29, 2019 20:38
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thespaceinvader posted:I personally don't see why they couldn't just have arena and paper be different and have errata digitally but not physically. It would make a lot more sense and mean the agile format could be agile. One of the biggest selling points for arena is that it is magic. Not an approximation. They tried "magic but optimized for digital" and people didn't want to play it because it wasn't "real magic"
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Oct 29, 2019 20:46
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When our kids came, we sold out of paper and tried nearly every "It's like Magic, but ...!" game on the market, and let me tell you: Only Magic is Magic.
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Oct 29, 2019 20:48
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Sinteres posted:I wonder if they'll ever decide to errata cards for Arena while leaving them alone in paper--we already have different formats in Arena vs paper. The solution is to hire more for R&D and streamline the process. Start firing people and cleaning up the department. No one ever gets punished for loving up in WoTC. Isn't play design a third team piggy backing onto a broken process or something? poo poo is hosed. Not add infinite time sinks that will eat even more of the existing team's time.
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Oct 29, 2019 20:49
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I thought the prevailing theory was that the play test group had to know this was going to happen but Hasbro/whatever-evil-C-suite-dude wanted a chase mythic to push box sales and here we are
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Oct 29, 2019 20:51
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zoux posted:I thought the prevailing theory was that the play test group had to know this was going to happen but Hasbro/whatever-evil-C-suite-dude wanted a chase mythic to push box sales and here we are I take Melissa's explanation at face value, honestly. They wanted Oko to be good, but hosed up and made it too good.
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Oct 29, 2019 20:53
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Spiderdrake posted:Errata is an incredibly bad idea, and sharding formats is worse. All of this is R&D time in action. Yep exactly this is a R&D/Greed problem. I think they either didn't know about Oko which is bad or knew about Oko but wanted the chase mythic anyway which is also bad. The solution is to try to prevent this from happening more in the future than to hand out errata and bans.
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Oct 29, 2019 20:53
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Oko feels more frustrating to play against than cawblade did back in the day
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Oct 29, 2019 20:54
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My LGS just dropped Standard FNM for Pioneer. So every Friday is now Pioneer, Modern, and draft, then Legacy every other week.
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Oct 29, 2019 20:55
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long-rear end nips Diane posted:I take Melissa's explanation at face value, honestly. They wanted Oko to be good, but hosed up and made it too good. can I get I source on this?
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Oct 29, 2019 20:56
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It's not a "Teferi can tuck himself" oversight that's the kind of thing that you can believe made it through testing because nobody wanted to deck an opponent for 40 turns. They had to know Elking artifacts and any creature as a +1 was overpowered immediately in the same set they printed Questing Beast and a cycle of Mythic Artifact build-arounds. Something changed from play design clearly.
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Oct 29, 2019 20:57
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Paul Zuvella posted:can I get I source on this?
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Oct 29, 2019 20:57
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zoux posted:I thought the prevailing theory was that the play test group had to know this was going to happen but Hasbro/whatever-evil-C-suite-dude wanted a chase mythic to push box sales and here we are I think people get a bit too  about their motivations sometimes and a combination of greed (I do think it was obviously meant to be pushed, just not this pushed) and incompetence is usually a better explanation than just greed alone. High profile bans after prolonged periods of bad play are very obviously not good for the health of the game, so I don't think they would have printed this if they'd known how bad it was.
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Oct 29, 2019 20:58
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The idea that R&D is like incapable of making mistakes seems really short sighted and not everything comes down to corporate meddling. If anything, corporate has an increased incentive to *not* print things like Oko, because a healthy standard is now imperative to the continued health of Arena, which is a major product. When you work with a small group of people in a closed environment it is easy to just gently caress up sometimes and overlook something. People are not perfect, yo.
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Oct 29, 2019 21:04
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The idea of some executive having the mastery of Magic necessary and the desire to go into the branch company's design pits to be like "Make Oko's loyalty higher. No! Make that a +1, not a -1!" is just... Like, it's really not a sane line of reasoning. I've talked to Hasbro employees through that other fandom I hang out in, we even have one in the thread, and executive meddling does not seem like a thing they do. Not on that loving level. A bunch of them got fired somewhat recently anyway. R&D has always hosed up and always will gently caress up and sometimes their gently caress ups are hilarious like Zvi screaming about Damnation and some of them are Oko style overpushed nonsense. Designing a game that millions of people will tear apart is loving hard. I think one of the biggest things is they need to cap changes past a certain stage. Nothing should get buffed late in design. Oko just looks like another skullclamp with the exact opposite number problem.
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Oct 29, 2019 21:11
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If this was a super calculated move to drive sales by making standard not fun, it failed spectacularly, because people don't want to play a game that isn't fun.
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Oct 29, 2019 21:12
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Paul Zuvella posted:The idea that R&D is like incapable of making mistakes seems really short sighted and not everything comes down to corporate meddling. If anything, corporate has an increased incentive to *not* print things like Oko, because a healthy standard is now imperative to the continued health of Arena, which is a major product. There's been too heavy of a trend towards powerful planeswalkers which finally resulted in Oko. That looks like an ongoing issue with the R&D team. That explanation just linked makes me feel like they don't understand the issue that makes planewalkers overpowered. She said they underestimated the +1's defensive capabilities by shutting down opponent's answers. That ignores the high health, two powerful plus abilities, low mana cost, and instant pay off before even touching the -2. Teferi and Narset were already ridiculous and they pretty much triple downed with Oko. That looks bad.
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Oct 29, 2019 21:22
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The problem i guess is that when walkers or lands are broken they're really broken. Probably not the classes of permanent you want to push.
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Oct 29, 2019 21:26
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Doltos posted:There's been too heavy of a trend towards powerful planeswalkers which finally resulted in Oko. That looks like an ongoing issue with the R&D team. That explanation just linked makes me feel like they don't understand the issue that makes planewalkers overpowered. She said they underestimated the +1's defensive capabilities by shutting down opponent's answers. That ignores the high health, two powerful plus abilities, low mana cost, and instant pay off before even touching the -2. I mean that much is obvious, they want to push the powerlevel of planeswalkers in general. We just had an entire set built around them. That does not mean that they printed oko knowing they just printed the best planeswalker ever made and said "Good job team"
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Oct 29, 2019 21:27
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Doltos posted:There's been too heavy of a trend towards powerful planeswalkers which finally resulted in Oko. That looks like an ongoing issue with the R&D team. That explanation just linked makes me feel like they don't understand the issue that makes planewalkers overpowered. She said they underestimated the +1's defensive capabilities by shutting down opponent's answers. That ignores the high health, two powerful plus abilities, low mana cost, and instant pay off before even touching the -2. I mean that much is obvious, they want to push the powerlevel of planeswalkers in general. We just had an entire set built around them. That does not mean that they printed oko knowing they just printed the best planeswalker ever made and said "Good job team"
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Oct 29, 2019 21:27
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It's kind of amazing when you contrast with the OG 3 cmc walker and this thing saw tons of play! Imagine what he'd look like now. +4 on the front end, +1 instead of -1? No Wave posted:The problem i guess is that when walkers or lands are broken they're really broken. Probably not the classes of permanent you want to push. But I mean also walkers are supposed to be interacted with in combat and Oko just dominates the battlefield so yeah maybe they should also not do that.
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Oct 29, 2019 21:28
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People used to play that Jace so their Opponents wouldn't be able to play Jace the Mind Sculptor lol
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Oct 29, 2019 21:33
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