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Gaz-L posted:Super interesting, Bix, and I'm sorry your friend is being a dipshit. I think that’s what Bix is referring to when he references Bill Maher. It’s this Centrist/Libertarian-leaning subset of Democrats that has been railing against “PC Culture” since at least the 90s. Even Obama touched on this with his recent comments about getting upset on the Internet. But that side fully embracing Trumpian-language like “snowflake”, “triggered”, “SJW” etc is a relatively more recent and terrifying phenomenon, and Cornette seems to have positioned himself right in that camp. I don’t think Cornette actually wants to burn trans people at the stake (Christ, it’s hosed that I have to even say that). He’s using the language of traditional Internet hyperbole that places like this forum pioneered twenty years ago. I’ve never liked that rhetoric in any form, even when he uses it against Vince Russo. But I can be reasonably confident no one is going to tie Vince Russo at the stake and kill him. But when he couples that rhetoric with intensely homophobic/transphobic language, it becomes a much more serious loving problem because as a country we’re few decades out from Gay Panic being an acceptable legal defense. Cornette’s language in the clip Bix posted reminded me a lot of what actually happened to Matthew Shephard. That was only 21 years ago. davidbix posted:” There is a large, large portion of liberals who even as they support trans rights still think of being trans, and especially being MtF, as something inherently ridiculous and pathetic. And Jim’s in a business with a fifty year tradition of heels in drag getting the poo poo beat out of them, which only just ended, some of which he booked himself (how much of Goldust’s first run was he on the booking committee for?). He’s probably internalized a ton of that poo poo. Pinstripe Hourglass fucked around with this message at 23:32 on Nov 7, 2019 |
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Nov 7, 2019 23:24
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DoctorGonzo posted:cornette is a fake motherfucker. any normal sane person with so much hate would have died long ago reminder that kissinger is still alive, being a hateful old poo poo makes people live forever Pinstripe Hourglass posted:There is a large, large portion of liberals who even as they support trans rights still think of being trans, and especially being MtF, as something inherently ridiculous and pathetic. yeah the sane person's position on trans people existing is "ok cool whatever" the liberal position on trans(or any kind of minority) is "we have to accept them even though they're So Different from Normals" Yinlock fucked around with this message at 09:29 on Nov 8, 2019 |
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Nov 8, 2019 09:26
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I haven't even listened to JCE yet, but Brian is having a normal one on Twitter, now accusing Janela of injuring Marko in the AEW Dark main event finish from last week/the show that dropped this week. Even though the claim last was was that Joey injured him some other way in the middle of the match and people heard him in distress as he laid on the floor. (On the show, there's an obvious edit after Marko bumps to the floor, and it doesn't even look bad/like it was anyone's fault, just A Thing That Happened.) Said finish was an avalanche package piledriver which, while I'd rather they don't do it in a YouTube B-show match, clearly went fine, with Marko tucking and rolling at the right moments. When I pointed this out, Brian accused me of stanning for any wrestler that's nice to me (like...Cody Hall?!?!) and owing him money (I had not yet sent him the $2.17 from the old 6:05 referral link that went into my bank account at the end of the month) while refusing to acknowledge anything I said about how the finish clearly went off safely. Joey and Marko have since joined in on the thread. Yeah. If he's literally decided to end a 15 year friendship with someone whose family he's known on and off since he was in 2nd grade over this poo poo then it will be the stupidest thing I've ever experienced on the internet. But I also don't really care anymore past not wanting the worst elements of the JCE fanbase to brigade me, and it's not like it came out of nowhere.
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Nov 9, 2019 00:37
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...If Marko's confirmed he's OK, why is it even an argument? Is Last claiming he's lying?
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Nov 9, 2019 00:39
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i will be your friend. me, drew and cavauro
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Nov 9, 2019 00:42
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davidbix posted:I haven't even listened to JCE yet, but Brian is having a normal one on Twitter, now accusing Janela of injuring Marko in the AEW Dark main event finish from last week/the show that dropped this week. Even though the claim last was was that Joey injured him some other way in the middle of the match and people heard him in distress as he laid on the floor. (On the show, there's an obvious edit after Marko bumps to the floor, and it doesn't even look bad/like it was anyone's fault, just A Thing That Happened.) Said finish was an avalanche package piledriver which, while I'd rather they don't do it in a YouTube B-show match, clearly went fine, with Marko tucking and rolling at the right moments. Man, that's a real bummer. I haven't really said much on Brian Last's behavior because I figured its part of the act, but that's sad he's willing to starfuck you over Jim Cornette. Sorry but I got a real low opinion of recording industry flacks.
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Nov 9, 2019 00:49
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i am willing to be the friend of anyone who stops being friends with brian last
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Nov 9, 2019 01:07
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Jesus, sorry to hear that Cornette's bullshit might have bubbled over into ending a friendship. I've never liked Brian and he always comes off as a disingenuous snot to me, but still, losing friends sucks.
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Nov 9, 2019 03:33
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Yinlock posted:reminder that kissinger is still alive, being a hateful old poo poo makes people live forever kissinger is a sadist, he got joy of what he did
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Nov 9, 2019 03:37
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Pinstripe Hourglass posted:That was a really good post, Bix, and I appreciate how you’re willing to be critical of someone you have some degree of affinity for. I listen to pretty much every podcast Jim Cornette puts out (except for the AEW ones recently) and I’ve never heard him say anything violently lovely about people who are actually gay. I always get the idea that he’s against actual homophobia but was never able to dump the 90s-and-before method of insulting people with stereotypically homophobic insults because he’s stupidly blind to the connection. I’m gay and am pretty sensitive to what people are saying when it comes to that kind of stuff and I’ve never paused and had a “Jim is being hateful towards lgbtq people” moment as much as I’ve had a “dude please stop you don’t know enough about this to comment on it” reaction to stuff like the Nyla Rose thing Jim says enough dumb and gross poo poo that I’ve been cutting back from listening to him but the idea that the stuff he’s saying is somehow going to inflame violent acts against gay or trans people makes me think people have a completely different reading of the situation than I do
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Nov 9, 2019 06:03
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DoctorGonzo posted:kissinger is a sadist, he got joy of what he did that sadism is driven by pure hate though e: hell for another example just look at the president, who never sleeps more than 5 hours, eats only fast food, and thinks that exercise will use up his life's finite energy supply dude's still alive Yinlock fucked around with this message at 08:36 on Nov 9, 2019 |
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Nov 9, 2019 08:17
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Jerusalem posted:I wish I could remember which old wrestler it was who told a story on an old podcast about showing up to some territory on the day of a show as a complete nobody, being big and imposing looking enough that everybody assumed he was just a wrestler. He managed to walk his way into a creative meeting where Bruiser Brody was ready to throw down in a fight with him until one of the bookers bullshitted a,"Oh we were supposed to meet 30 minutes from now!" and escorted him out of the room, told him not to make a fuss and he'd get him on the show that night, and it basically launched his entire career. It might be a different guy, but that sounds a lot like the story Vader told of how he got into the business, which if I recall did involve showing up at an event and barging into the locker room to demand a job - at which point someone there was quick-witted enough to pretend that he had a pre-existing appointment with the 450lb man who just showed up before punches were exchanged.
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Nov 9, 2019 11:25
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Aesop Poprock posted:I listen to pretty much every podcast Jim Cornette puts out (except for the AEW ones recently) and I’ve never heard him say anything violently lovely about people who are actually gay. I always get the idea that he’s against actual homophobia but was never able to dump the 90s-and-before method of insulting people with stereotypically homophobic insults because he’s stupidly blind to the connection. I’m gay and am pretty sensitive to what people are saying when it comes to that kind of stuff and I’ve never paused and had a “Jim is being hateful towards lgbtq people” moment as much as I’ve had a “dude please stop you don’t know enough about this to comment on it” reaction to stuff like the Nyla Rose thing
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Nov 9, 2019 21:00
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LividLiquid posted:Did you listen to the Double or Nothing show? I did, could you refresh my memory about what Cornette said on it? I know the Sonny Kiss thing but if that’s it honesty I saw where he was coming from because wrestling has a history of presenting characters like Sonny negatively as jokes and they didn’t introduce or explain him (or most other people) at all when they came out in those weird groups for the battle royal. I knew who Sonny Kiss was prior to that but I totally would have thought he was an offensive stereotype character if I didn’t because I have zero reason to give wrestling the benefit of the doubt in that regard That said I only listened to it once because Cornette talking about AEW is extremely irritating and I avoid most of his schtick about modern wrestling entirely
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Nov 10, 2019 00:34
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Tangential, but I've been thinking about how AEW could fix the battle royal gimmick if they're married to the card suit/casino thing: Have each person in the suit groups enter according to the number of the card they pulled. So when it's Spades, the 7 of Spades comes out before the deuce, but with like 10-20 second delays. That way you can keep the 'group' idea but still give individual entrances. Of course the real answer is just do Aztec Warfare instead.
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Nov 10, 2019 01:15
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Aesop Poprock posted:I did, could you refresh my memory about what Cornette said on it? I know the Sonny Kiss thing but if that’s it honesty I saw where he was coming from because wrestling has a history of presenting characters like Sonny negatively as jokes and they didn’t introduce or explain him (or most other people) at all when they came out in those weird groups for the battle royal. I knew who Sonny Kiss was prior to that but I totally would have thought he was an offensive stereotype character if I didn’t because I have zero reason to give wrestling the benefit of the doubt in that regard But. He really should know better why something like his Nyla Rose storyline idea was not a good one. And that "cosplay rasslers should be set on fire" rant a few weeks ago that somehow turned into what could only be understood as throwing trans people in with them...that was was incredibly concerning/disturbing. And I have no idea what other explanation anyone could even come up with. Even if it was a failed riff that ended up in an unintended place, that's what editing in post is for, because it totally sounded like he was saying something truly horrific. davidbix fucked around with this message at 02:46 on Nov 10, 2019 |
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Nov 10, 2019 02:42
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FullLeatherJacket posted:It might be a different guy, but that sounds a lot like the story Vader told of how he got into the business, which if I recall did involve showing up at an event and barging into the locker room to demand a job - at which point someone there was quick-witted enough to pretend that he had a pre-existing appointment with the 450lb man who just showed up before punches were exchanged. That sounds similar enough that I'm sure it was Vader, and I probably heard it on either the Austin podcast or the Jericho one.
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Nov 10, 2019 02:48
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davidbix posted:The initial Sonny Kiss thing can be written off as Corny thinking he was a straight dude doing a flamboyant gay stereotype gimmick. I don't think he consciously looks at LGBT people as lesser or not deserving of rights, and I do think that he has that disconnect, not unique to him, of realizing that a lot of his pet insults are at least borderline homophobic. Was that part of one of the links you posted before? If he did something like that then yeah gently caress him.
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Nov 10, 2019 03:50
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Aesop Poprock posted:Was that part of one of the links you posted before? If he did something like that then yeah gently caress him. Gun to my head, if I had to give an answer: Do I think this was a horrifically failed riff off of a Joey Ryan reference more than anything else, much less a genuine desire to see trans people slowly burnt alive? ...probably...I guess? I mean, I kind of think he genuinely feels that way about the "cosplay rasslers," which is troubling in and of itself, but he doesn't strike me as the kind of virulent transphobe who would say what came out. But it came out in such a way that I don't understand why he and/or Brian didn't stop for a second and say "Yknow, that didn't come out as intended." Because it really was an inarguably awful thing to say and not recognizing it and going in a different direction/editing the show really sends a terrible message. (Whether or not it seems like he—or others that present as "live and let live" types—has the "I don't care either way as long as you're happy, but I find it inherently silly and dumb that this is what you want" thing going, I dunno. That's a different branch of the same conversation, but the dismissiveness, the Nyla Rose storyline pitch, etc. are concerning even if he hadn't somehow blurted out that trans people should slowly burn to death.)
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Nov 10, 2019 06:10
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What's a "cosplay rassler"? Like someone dressing up for big matches or doing over the top gimmicks or is that Cornette's insult for wrestlers he doesn't think are "real" and are just "playing dress up" as wrestlers?
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Nov 10, 2019 06:59
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STAC Goat posted:What's a "cosplay rassler"? Like someone dressing up for big matches or doing over the top gimmicks or is that Cornette's insult for wrestlers he doesn't think are "real" and are just "playing dress up" as wrestlers? Both, I think.
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Nov 10, 2019 07:01
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Cornette doesn't deserve any benefit of the doubt after his cave people rant about Muslims. He loving sucks and if he says something that sounds bigoted the most logical answer is it is.
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Nov 10, 2019 07:07
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STAC Goat posted:What's a "cosplay rassler"? Like someone dressing up for big matches or doing over the top gimmicks or is that Cornette's insult for wrestlers he doesn't think are "real" and are just "playing dress up" as wrestlers? But it's coming from the same guy who thinks that the Bucks look like "grade school children," that there are too many "girls' matches," that Janela with the same exact body type as Bobby Eaton is fat, that, that Orange Cassidy with his visible abs and uncanny body control is un-athletic, who may think Marko Stunt is an actual child, etc. Who the hell even knows what he's talking about sometimes?
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Nov 10, 2019 07:07
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MassRafTer posted:Cornette doesn't deserve any benefit of the doubt after his cave people rant about Muslims. This was when I gave up on him. That episode was absolutely revolting.
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Nov 10, 2019 07:10
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Yeah, I know Cornette has his totally arbitrary definitions of which wrestlers "belong" and which ones shouldn't be allowed in the ring for some reason or another. I just had never heard that phrase so I wasn't sure it was that or some insult for like gimmicks/characters he doesn't like. Then again I suppose that's a distinction without a difference.
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Nov 10, 2019 07:11
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MassRafTer posted:Cornette doesn't deserve any benefit of the doubt after his cave people rant about Muslims. He loving sucks and if he says something that sounds bigoted the most logical answer is it is. I'll say this until I'm blue in the face, but bigotry isn't a disease you have. It's not "whoops! You have bigotry!" It's things you do and choices you make. It's ways you act and things you say. Every single one of us still has bigotry in us, internal or external, and we need to spend the rest of our lives constantly examining our behavior to find it within ourselves and work to stop it. We need to tell our friends that their joke was bad, and also be receptive when people tell us the thing we said or did was bad. We'll never be done, but we have to keep trying.
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Nov 10, 2019 07:25
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I like to believe that I'm embarrassed by the person I was 5 or 10 years ago and that I should be embarrassed by the person I am today in 5 or 10 years. Anyone who doesn't think they have room to grow and improve is either completely deluded about themselves or a perfect person. Cornette I think is good about some stuff, and probably even better about some stuff than he once was. But he's got that fundamental character flaw that he doesn't like being called out or told he's wrong and when he is he gets angry and mean.
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Nov 10, 2019 07:30
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We teach people, especially young men, that the response to "you hosed up" should be "gently caress you." The response to being told you hosed up is "oh, poo poo." Now maybe you examine that, and it turns out the person telling you that you hosed up is being disingenuous and taking advantage of the fact that you want to be a good person, but you need to arrive at that conclusion after a thorough examination. Don't say gently caress you. Say oh, poo poo.
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Nov 10, 2019 07:33
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Cornette lives a gimmick where he can’t ever apologize for anything, because it kills the gimmick. Regardless of politics, it’s Trump-like on a mechanical level. Vitriol drives up his numbers. I don’t know how close this is to his real personality. Maybe Bix would. I know he has anger problems.
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Nov 10, 2019 07:48
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Pinstripe Hourglass posted:Cornette lives a gimmick where he can’t ever apologize for anything, because it kills the gimmick. Regardless of politics, it’s Trump-like on a mechanical level. Vitriol drives up his numbers. I have never heard Jim Cornette meaningfully apologize for anything the entire time he's been on my radar and had he ever done so, I might have stockholmed my way right past his problematic bullshit in the hopes that he'd come around.
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Nov 10, 2019 07:57
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Pinstripe Hourglass posted:Cornette lives a gimmick where he can’t ever apologize for anything, because it kills the gimmick. Regardless of politics, it’s Trump-like on a mechanical level. Vitriol drives up his numbers. LividLiquid posted:I disagree completely. If Cornette ever apologized for something, it'd be clear that he could be reached, which would make people like me much more likely to stick around. When somebody realizes they're wrong, says they're sorry, and explains why they were wrong and why they won't be repeating the mistake, I know they're actually trying. Never in my life have I ever encountered anybody who did that performatively. But for example, while it's not like I've ever talked to him personally about this type of thing, I have no doubt that he's telling the truth when he tells, say, the story about overturning his couch in rage when he watched a Heyman-booked episode of OVW for the first time. I've long thought that the "untreated PTSD from fans trying to kill him" theory from earlier in the thread had merit—I knew I forgetting something the other day—if just because it makes too much sense. Not to diagnose the guy, of course, but you think about how young he was, how new to the business he was without having built up a tolerance for it before rising to the level of doing a "rich mama's boy/implied gay dude" gimmick as the top heel manager in freaking 1984 Louisiana...that's gotta affect you. He did give a somewhat legitimate apology for using the N-word while arguing with a security guard during the Wise, VA riot in SMW in 1993. "Somewhat" meaning that while it was couched as "I'm sorry if you were offended," he still clearly regretted it and gave a clear accounting of how he understood that his logic of "use the word that will most hurt the person you were arguably with" was no defense/mitigation of the lovely thing he did. But yeah, a big part of what's been going on for the last 6 months or so is that he doesn't like being called out for poo poo and he immediately ascribes the motives of the person criticizing him to be solely because he doesn't like the fan's favorite wrestler.
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Nov 10, 2019 08:38
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LividLiquid posted:I disagree completely. If Cornette ever apologized for something, it'd be clear that he could be reached, which would make people like me much more likely to stick around. When somebody realizes they're wrong, says they're sorry, and explains why they were wrong and why they won't be repeating the mistake, I know they're actually trying. Never in my life have I ever encountered anybody who did that performatively. Livid, I hope you don’t misunderstand me here, I’m not defending Cornette at all. I’m with you, there’s a reason I never listen to him anymore. But there is a commercial logic to what he’s doing. The market for people like you who are socially conscious wrestling fans is already tapped into. The market he’s tapped into isn’t interested in watching men apologize, they’re interested in watching men tell prissy boys to gently caress themselves. Apologizing or showing any signs of self criticism only disappoints that market. Again, not a defense, I consider it more of an indictment. Just my analysis of the situation.
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Nov 10, 2019 08:46
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i had a great chat with a successful marketer on the last page about that. well worth poring over
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Nov 10, 2019 08:50
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I also don't really believe in "living the gimmick". It would be different if he was an actor playing a role on a show, but he's not. He's tweeting and podcasting as this "Jim Cornette." No actor is out there tweeting and conducting interviews as their TV character (and if they are it rarely goes well). "Kayfabe" isn't a real world concept. Whether its someone on the internet or someone on Fox News if you spend your days being a bigot and especially if you turn a profit off it then that's what you are. At the absolute best you have no qualms being one for pay or fun. At which point how are you not one? So like, Cornette is good about some things, but the things he's bad about he really is bad about. He doesn't get to use "gimmick" or "kayfabe" as an excuse because that's not how the world actually works. But i do actually think Cornette changes his views and grows. I can't name anything off the top of my head but I feel like I've heard him acknowledge his flaws and mistakes in the past a lot. I think the key is "the past." He strikes me as the kind of person who will never do it when confronted or pushed to, but once the fight has ended and time has passed he might change his mind when he can tell himself that he got there on his own and not because someone called him out.
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Nov 10, 2019 08:52
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davidbix posted:I've long thought that the "untreated PTSD from fans trying to kill him" theory from earlier in the thread had merit—I knew I forgetting something the other day—if just because it makes too much sense. Kept-getting-misdiagnosed-with-depression-for-fifteen-years PTSD. A degree of patience would be amazing, yes, and you giving that to Cornette? I get it. But people don't generally forgive me for getting triggered and acting out in response, and I also expect myself to not let my damage splash onto others while Jim and people like him have that courtesy extended to them all the time, all the while whining about how triggered people like me get.
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Nov 10, 2019 09:06
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davidbix posted:The latter, with the former brought up if convenient (like the Bucks and Omega at Fyter Fest, the Halloween show, etc). Think how some people used "Fire Pro offense" as a jab at the more cold and rote ROH guys about a dozen years ago. I know this is small potatoes to the larger issues being discussed, but he has to know OC has managed to work him, right? That that's part of the gimmick?
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Nov 10, 2019 15:23
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Gaz-L posted:I know this is small potatoes to the larger issues being discussed, but he has to know OC has managed to work him, right? That that's part of the gimmick? It's only a work when Jim is working, when it's someone he doesn't like it's totally real and killing the business.
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Nov 10, 2019 19:16
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WSAENOTSOCK posted:I get it, but I have PTSD. Like, on-actual-medications-I-got-because-of-my-diagnosis PTSD. But yeah, I'm not defending anything as much as saying "one does get the impression that some of his mood issues stem from that stuff."
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Nov 10, 2019 21:38
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He lives his entire life as a character. If there is a real Jim Cornette it's buried under 30 something years of the character Jim Cornette. He's obviously hosed in the head.
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Nov 10, 2019 22:16
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jim is a cautionary tale of what happens when you work yourself into a pretzel for 40 fuckin years like the unfortunately named fyad poster and his prodromal schizophrenia
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Nov 10, 2019 22:21
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