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Krispy Wafer posted:That's part of the problem. South Park can be funny and not cruel, but then they double down on the cruel anyway. Yeah, they are actually capable of good commentary sometimes, like the episode about South Park getting a Whole Foods and gentrifying. But it’s rare. Also important to remember that Matt Stone is Jewish and Kyle is sort of his avatar.
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Nov 15, 2019 04:34
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The recent episode conveying trans people as dangerous and unhinged should discount a poo poo-ton of goodwill they've developed. Or that it's not an uncommon thing for somebody to pretend to be trans, which leads to the kind of mentality where doctors and governments gatekeep treatment and create legal barriers.
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Nov 15, 2019 07:33
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sassassin posted:People seem to like it in Woody Allen's movies. i've honestly never seen a single Woody Allen movie but i think you know that minorities making humour about their own stereotypes usually is viewed a bit differently. maybe you think that's a bad double standard though.
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Nov 15, 2019 14:47
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umalt posted:The recent episode conveying trans people as dangerous and unhinged should discount a poo poo-ton of goodwill they've developed. the TV IV thread has a depressing amount of posts chin stroking about how it's actually a good point that we should be keeping trans weirdos from dominating women sports
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Nov 15, 2019 14:49
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The brilliant and fearless truth tellers at South Park (who don't care what anyone thinks) know they have to disavow some of their more obviously awful opinions if they want to maintain any cultural relevance at all. But they're not actually changing their opinions on things. So you end up with them making a transphobic episode that's essentially identical in spirit to their transphobic episode from over 10 years ago where Kyle wants to play basketball. Because "butwhatabout the trans people in sports!" is now as far as they can publicly go with their transphobia.
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Nov 15, 2019 15:05
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I haven't watched the episode and have no plans to, but it's highly unlikely the even added anything new to the "conversation" about transpeople in sports. It's been going on since at least 1975, with Renée Richards.
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Nov 15, 2019 15:25
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South Park did an episode rebuking the Alt Right and then the next week went straight back to espousing Alt Right views. It's a show by bigots for bigots, but somehow manages to occasionally trick people into thinking it has anything worthwhile to say.
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Nov 15, 2019 15:36
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Crowetron posted:South Park did an episode rebuking the Alt Right and then the next week went straight back to espousing Alt Right views. It's a show by bigots for bigots, but somehow manages to occasionally trick people into thinking it has anything worthwhile to say. this last episode was really dumb but south park can be all over the place when it comes to what it's mocking, taken individually any episode can be 'good' or 'bad' and it doesn't really have a coherent philosophy, there's lots of funny south park episodes and lots of bad ones. at least they walked back their stance on climate change being an imaginary thing.
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Nov 15, 2019 15:52
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ulex minor posted:this last episode was really dumb but south park can be all over the place when it comes to what it's mocking, taken individually any episode can be 'good' or 'bad' and it doesn't really have a coherent philosophy, there's lots of funny south park episodes and lots of bad ones. at least they walked back their stance on climate change being an imaginary thing. Any given shithead probably has some decent views about a number of topics 
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Nov 15, 2019 16:05
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The Moon Monster posted:Any given shithead probably has some decent views about a number of topics well, yes? my point was more that the show 'south park' isn't just for bigots because there's plenty of episodes you can enjoy without being a bigot and it *does* have interesting things to say sometimes
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Nov 15, 2019 16:14
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ulex minor posted:well, yes? my point was more that the show 'south park' isn't just for bigots because there's plenty of episodes you can enjoy without being a bigot and it *does* have interesting things to say sometimes Are we really so hard up for entertainment that we should be happy to settle for a show that's merely mostly for bigots though
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Nov 15, 2019 16:18
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It’s not for bigots, it’s for nihilists. The show’s ideology is that nothing matters and it’s bad to care about stuff one way or the other.
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Nov 15, 2019 16:25
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purple death ray posted:Are we really so hard up for entertainment that we should be happy to settle for a show that's merely mostly for bigots though the episodes that are good are entertaining and can have good points, i don't think you're 'settling' by enjoying them. if your point is that you shouldn't watch the good episodes because they also make bad episodes then i suppose that's a fair personal choice! i hated the last episode but it doesn't make the episodes i liked worse in retrospect, i watch everything on putlocker anyway so it's not like i'm paying for it.
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Nov 15, 2019 16:27
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Henchman of Santa posted:It’s not for bigots, it’s for nihilists. The show’s ideology is that nothing matters and it’s bad to care about stuff one way or the other. people say this, but i think they *do* care about certain things and had a whole storyline about Stan (I think?) dealing with that nihilist mindset. but episodes like the one making fun of world of warcraft or the pokemon satire aren't really nihilistic in any way
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Nov 15, 2019 16:29
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Henchman of Santa posted:It’s not for bigots, it’s for nihilists. The show’s ideology is that nothing matters and it’s bad to care about stuff one way or the other. I think they do care about stuff but disinterested nihilism is a good escape hatch for when people call them on their poo poo.
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Nov 15, 2019 16:37
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They're nihilists about everything except rap and country.
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Nov 15, 2019 16:39
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The Daria ep with the teacher's strike has both aged well and is still pretty funny. Every teacher's union needs a Mr Demartino.
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Nov 15, 2019 16:41
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The Moon Monster posted:I think they do care about stuff but disinterested nihilism is a good escape hatch for when people call them on their poo poo. Like centrists being far righters who are too coward to own it up, nihilists feel like centrists who don't want to pick a side but also avoid that flak. In the end its all just hateful people using different denominations.
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Nov 15, 2019 16:47
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Also that Daria is right on time with her mom on picking up the phone when a substitute teacher is an obvious paedophile.
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Nov 15, 2019 16:48
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Samuringa posted:Like centrists being far righters who are too coward to own it up, nihilists feel like centrists who don't want to pick a side but also avoid that flak. It rings very hollow. They're such cool nihilists that they can be openly racist, but you can't call them out on being racist, because if you care about anything, you suck. Also, they're gonna pop a loving blood vessel over people driving hybrid cars.
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Nov 15, 2019 16:52
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Maybe I should have studied to be a teacher, I'd be able to come up with better bullshit about Shakespeare. It's basically the Hollywood movies of the 17th century and all.
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Nov 15, 2019 17:09
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Casey Finnigan posted:Also, they're gonna pop a loving blood vessel over people driving hybrid cars. The end of episode “I learned something today” bit says that hybrid cars are important and might save the planet someday. It was making fun of people’s attitudes about driving them more than anything else. You could probably change it over to Tesla’s from hybrids and make the same episode today (actually, you could probably make it funnier because Tesla is such a disaster).
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Nov 15, 2019 17:20
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ulex minor posted:the episodes that are good are entertaining and can have good points, i don't think you're 'settling' by enjoying them. if your point is that you shouldn't watch the good episodes because they also make bad episodes then i suppose that's a fair personal choice! i hated the last episode but it doesn't make the episodes i liked worse in retrospect, i watch everything on putlocker anyway so it's not like i'm paying for it. I guess, but like personally I'm not going to go back to a show after I see a nasty enough example of bigotry to see if maybe this one is better. That's kind of my point about Seth McFarlane's shows too, it's 2019 and everything you could want to watch, read, or play is at your fingertips and a diverse array of people are putting an insane amount of new entertainment out there for free every second. It's not like we're lacking in non bigoted entertainment so I don't understand this drive to stick it out with these fossils who were edgy and shocking two full decades ago just in case they do a decent one a few times a year.
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Nov 15, 2019 17:40
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One of South Park's frequent failings is that they should actually take their mindset one or two steps farther. To continue using the example of the hybrid episode, the overall point of that one was, "hybrid cars are good, but if hybrid owners are too smug about it, average joes won't want them, so please stop being smug." But really, why not take it a step further and also say "holy crap guys, you're really refusing to support this obviously beneficial new technology because some people are smug about it? What the hell is wrong with you? Get over it."
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Nov 15, 2019 17:45
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Ugly In The Morning posted:The end of episode “I learned something today” bit says that hybrid cars are important and might save the planet someday. It was making fun of people’s attitudes about driving them more than anything else. You could probably change it over to Tesla’s from hybrids and make the same episode today (actually, you could probably make it funnier because Tesla is such a disaster). Either way, the South Park guys have this take: the attitudes of certain kinds of car-drivers are annoying enough that it merits producing an entire episode of a TV show about it, but people who are upset at our racism are just oversensitive fools. Another example would be the time they were so incensed by Family Guy's existence that they had to make a whole episode about how it sucks (it does suck, but South Park is not really much better). Or when they named an episode "Roger Ebert needs to lay off the fatty foods" after he gave a bad review to their dogshit movie BASEketball, which they admit is a lovely movie. Sure, they're nihilists, about things that don't impact them at all, but seriously - most of their show is Parker and Stone being given an enormous platform to air petty grievances. Sir Lemming posted:One of South Park's frequent failings is that they should actually take their mindset one or two steps farther. To continue using the example of the hybrid episode, the overall point of that one was, "hybrid cars are good, but if hybrid owners are too smug about it, average joes won't want them, so please stop being smug." But really, why not take it a step further and also say "holy crap guys, you're really refusing to support this obviously beneficial new technology because some people are smug about it? What the hell is wrong with you? Get over it." I think the problem is that Parker and Stone most likely really were bothered by smug hybrid drivers, enough to make an episode about it. I know that after that episode came out, I knew a hell of a lot more anti-hybrid people who made jokes about "smug pollution" than pro-hybrid people who said "well look, the preachy kid at the end of the episode says they're good, so they're good." Kyle is always right, sure, but it's not like he's the fan favorite.
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Nov 15, 2019 17:57
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Casey Finnigan posted:I'm pretty sure Rolf was made by Danny Antonucci as a reference to how he saw the Italian members of his family growing up. As someone else who has an Italian immigrant parent I'd say he's pretty accurate as far as "this is what second-generation immigrant kids think their foreign family is like."
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Nov 15, 2019 18:50
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ulex minor posted:i've honestly never seen a single Woody Allen movie but i think you know that minorities making humour about their own stereotypes usually is viewed a bit differently. maybe you think that's a bad double standard though. What % Jewish makes those stereotypes okay, as "their own" humour? Family Guy was co-developed by David Zuckerman and Seth McFarlane only has a few episodes to his name as lead writer. Neil Goldman the character is a bad stereotype, how does Neil Goldman the Family Guy writer feel about it? It's a bad standard. Content doesn't get better or worse based on the identity of the author. Hateful or bigoted writing is just that.
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Nov 15, 2019 19:03
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Nov 15, 2019 19:09
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sassassin posted:What % Jewish makes those stereotypes okay, as "their own" humour? Family Guy was co-developed by David Zuckerman and Seth McFarlane only has a few episodes to his name as lead writer. Neil Goldman the character is a bad stereotype, how does Neil Goldman the Family Guy writer feel about it? You know that Jewish people make use our stereotypes for humor because those stereotypes are ridiculous, they were imposed upon us by people who aren't Jews, and we want to sap their power by mocking them, right? When a non-Jew uses those stereotypes for humor, all they're doing is perpetuating the stereotypes. Sometimes gentiles can make fun of Jewish stereotypes in ways that are funny and non-lovely, but they almost always fail at it because they lack the context to actually understand what they're trying to do - that's why people get annoyed with it. Similarly, sometimes Jews can write poo poo with decent intentions that ends up hurting other Jews. The Wish Upon a Weinstein special is loving garbage at mocking stereotypes to uplift Jewish people, and it would be even if everyone who worked on it was Jewish. And either way, you're probably gonna find at least one Jewish writer in most writers' rooms on most television shows. Matt Stone is Jewish, and South Park was largely the loving reason I couldn't go more than two feet in school growing up without someone yelling "you stupid loving Jew!" at me. Shockingly, Jewish people can work on and contribute to things that end up being bad for other Jewish people. Casey Finnigan has a new favorite as of 19:22 on Nov 15, 2019 |
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Nov 15, 2019 19:14
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This isn't even the old crazy canon either where the guy who trained the Rancor Luke killed is like a week away from saving up enough money to take the Rancor and just make a break from Jabba so it can live the rest of it's days in peace without being abused, this is the Disney stuff.
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Nov 15, 2019 20:05
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Casey Finnigan posted:And either way, you're probably gonna find at least one Jewish writer in most writers' rooms on most television shows. Matt Stone is Jewish, and South Park was largely the loving reason I couldn't go more than two feet in school growing up without someone yelling "you stupid loving Jew!" at me. Shockingly, Jewish people can work on and contribute to things that end up being bad for other Jewish people. So you agree with me that sassassin posted:It's a bad standard. Content doesn't get better or worse based on the identity of the author. Hateful or bigoted writing is just that.
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Nov 15, 2019 20:18
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sassassin posted:So you agree with me that: I mean yeah, but you're ignoring uh, this entire part of my post: quote:When a non-Jew uses those stereotypes for humor, all they're doing is perpetuating the stereotypes. Sometimes gentiles can make fun of Jewish stereotypes in ways that are funny and non-lovely, but they almost always fail at it because they lack the context to actually understand what they're trying to do - that's why people get annoyed with it. And, also, you're the person who is taking an openly offensive-to-Jews TV special and saying "there's a Jew in the writer's room!" as if it's a defense, which is pretty hosed, and also undermines your point. The special would suck if everyone who wrote it was a Jew. People don't feel that way about Mel Brooks movies because they're better written and funnier. Casey Finnigan has a new favorite as of 20:28 on Nov 15, 2019 |
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Nov 15, 2019 20:24
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Perhaps the truth is....somewhere in the middle?
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Nov 15, 2019 20:35
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It’s like one of the people arguing is a douche and the other is some kind of... I don’t know, a turd or something.
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Nov 15, 2019 20:54
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oldpainless posted:Perhaps the truth is....somewhere in the middle? more like oldsideless
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Nov 15, 2019 20:55
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If South Park was truly so centrist, they would two versions of each episode: one where they're pro-X and one where they're anti-X.
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Nov 15, 2019 20:58
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PubicMice posted:If South Park was truly so centrist, they would two versions of each episode: one where they're pro-X and one where they're anti-X. In a way, I'm pretty sure they do. I mean, they've had episodes where the moral was "Big Business = Good", and then later have one that's "Big Business = Bad", for example. Parker and Stone are so utterly against the idea of people thinking that they've ever taken a side on anything and thereby losing their Liberterian street cred that they've taken drat near every position on any given topic at some point so they can keep saying they're too cool to pick sides and unironically say that the truth is in the middle.
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Nov 16, 2019 06:33
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Ghost Leviathan posted:Also that Daria is right on time with her mom on picking up the phone when a substitute teacher is an obvious paedophile. Which episode is that?
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Nov 16, 2019 10:17
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Tiggum posted:Which episode is that? The one where the teachers go on strike, and she has to teach Quinn's English class.
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Nov 16, 2019 12:07
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Lucky Strike, a 5th season episode.
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Nov 16, 2019 12:13
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