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FlamingLiberal posted:Holdo is like Hillary in that she had no plan and lots of people died, and the bad guys won more 👏 women 👏 in 👏 charge 👏 of 👏 being 👏decimated 👏 by 👏 nazis sponges posted:I wonder if it was deliberate. Like see how TFA is received and just go from there? Maybe? If there's any answer to this, I think it's ultimately that good things take time and the disney star wars machine started in a big loving hurry. The suits wanted the star wars investment to start printing money as soon as humanly possible and waiting for a good and polished script with a thought out plan for future films was not on the table. There was probably also a (perhaps justified) belief that the IP would carry them through a period of rushed material while things spun up to a point of producing "quality". If you ever listen to JJ talk about TFA (don't recommend it though) he basically just says the movie was rushed over and over in different ways No Mods No Masters fucked around with this message at 03:39 on Nov 19, 2019 |
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Nov 19, 2019 03:34
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Holdo had a plan. Her plan was that no one in the first order would look out the window
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Nov 19, 2019 03:36
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I hope Boba Fett’s Corvette finally gets paid off in Episode IX.
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Nov 19, 2019 04:01
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No Mods No Masters posted:more 👏 women 👏 in 👏 charge 👏 of 👏 being 👏decimated 👏 by 👏 nazis What’s insane is that THIS is the franchise that’s rushed. They could’ve tapped dozens of people or metres of EE stories but instead it’s slap shot and rough shod. How is this franchise only slightly more organised than loving x-men?
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Nov 19, 2019 04:04
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I legitimately find the the relatively benign assertion that Holdo should have explained her plan to Poe like has some entitlement to know kind of icky. A lot of Last Jedi is about deconstructing the unhealthy notion of a chosen one: Luke's depression because he can't reconcile a moment of weakness with his reputation as the savior of the galaxy or Kylo trying to shove his anger and abusiveness into a hero's journey. Poe's story is one of humility, one where he learns that he's not necessarily the hero of the story and that there are bigger things than him.
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Nov 19, 2019 04:14
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He deserves an explanation because he's a commanding officer on board the ship that's currently under attack. And the movie itself kind of forgets that if he hadn't ordered the bombers to attack the dreadnaught, it would have followed them and killed them all.
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Nov 19, 2019 04:22
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Holdo on her own isn't necessarily the problem, the problem is in the context that The Force Awakens is a movie that exists purely in the liminal headspace of post-obama, pre-trump liberals, and The Last Jedi is in many ways an angry response to that headspace getting absolutely loving curbstomped by the ugly boot of reality. Hux, Ren, and Snoke were supposed to be these useless, impotent clowns that couldn't pose a threat to real people, just the extras, but then their real-world counterparts took control of the American government and destroyed the status quo. So you have to show that you're loyal to the leadership, refuse to admit the failure of your ideology, and we world be at brunch right now if all these loving hot headed E: the game is really given away by the fact that of the four named antagonists in The Force Awakens, the only one with actual teeth is Kylo. Hux, Phasma, and Snoke are respectively a white supremacist, a cop, and a businessman, and all three of those are forces accepted as normal parts of societal functioning in American liberal democracy, so they all ultimately either amount to nothing (snoke) or are revealed as a paper tiger of no real threat to the heroes (Hux, phasma). But Kylo? TFA Kylo is an ersatz school shooter, the evil that comes home, the 21st century boogeyman who's gonna kill your precious children. He's the only one of the four that doesn't "fit" in liberal America, and he's the only one who is seen as approaching a real threat by the narrative. Babysitter Super Sleuth fucked around with this message at 04:35 on Nov 19, 2019 |
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Nov 19, 2019 04:26
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SolarFire2 posted:He deserves an explanation because he's a commanding officer on board the ship that's currently under attack.
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Nov 19, 2019 04:46
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Does he mention anything about her appearance at any point?
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Nov 19, 2019 04:55
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John Wick of Dogs posted:Does he mention anything about her appearance at any point?
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Nov 19, 2019 04:59
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The funny thing about the "Holdo's Secret Plan" debate is that Holdo eventually tells Poe half of her plan. Holdo's full plan is that they can cloak the shuttles for a little bit and hide out in the mine while the First Order flies right on by. Holdo, though, only tells Poe the part of the plan where they fly out into space in undefended shuttles. That's actually what prompts the coup. We can fight all day about whether Holdo was right to keep Poe out of the loop after his demotion, but it's undebatable that if she was going to fill Poe in she should have told him the whole plan and not just the part that was stupid and didn't make any sense. I'm willing to be corrected on this, but I don't think there was ever a reason given for Holdo just leaving the main part of the plan out. Also, I think the "lesson of humility" that Poe is supposed to learn is really insidious. It's not humility that Poe is meant to learn, but submission. Poe's not supposed to question authority, even when the people in charge don't respect you and say things that don't make sense. TLJ creates a scenario where Poe's disobedience leads to disaster, but in reality it's those with authority that should hold accountable, not just some grunts. pospysyl fucked around with this message at 06:20 on Nov 19, 2019 |
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Nov 19, 2019 06:14
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pospysyl posted:The funny thing about the "Holdo's Secret Plan" debate is that Holdo eventually tells Poe half of her plan. Holdo's full plan is that they can cloak the shuttles for a little bit and hide out in the mine while the First Order flies right on by. Holdo, though, only tells Poe the part of the plan where they fly out into space in undefended shuttles. That's actually what prompts the coup. We can fight all day about whether Holdo was right to keep Poe out of the loop after his demotion, but it's undebatable that if she was going to fill Poe in she should have told him the whole plan and not just the part that was stupid and didn't make any sense. I'm willing to be corrected on this, but I don't think there was ever a reason given for Holdo just leaving the main part of the plan out. He could have actually helped her or made the plan more successful but he wasn’t told everything
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Nov 19, 2019 06:17
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Holdo is coded like the Rebels in Rogue One who were down with surrendering to the Empire and stuff, which no one ever really mentions, either.Timeless Appeal posted:Yes. His first reaction to her is implicit respect for her reputation followed by "Not what I expected." This is so dumb, dude. Holdo is wearing what amounts to an evening gown on the bridge of a starship where virtually everyone else is wearing military uniforms. In fact, I feel pretty safe in saying that she's the only character except Leia, who is a political leader and figurehead, to do so. Even Leia, with her overcoat-esque cloak and dark colors brings to mind a revolutionary leader (in-exile or otherwise). Is Lieutenant Connix suffering from internalized misogyny, too? People draw comparisons to Mon Mothma, but she was also a political leader giving a high-level strategic briefing to a massive organization at its height. I doubt she was wearing that during the Battle of Endor. I doubt she was even at the battle. Princess Leia doesn't go around in her white robes during battle situations. Holdo showing up in that clothing during a crisis situation is flat out weird and bizarre. You've got all these dusty, dirty grunts who're shocked and mourning after a devastating engagement... and here comes Admiral Holdo, who looks like she's just come back from an evening ball. "Not what I expected" is positively benign. It's weird that Poe wouldn't have any idea what Admiral Holdo would look like anyway - the Resistance is not a big organization, and there can't be too many flag officers within it! SolarFire2 posted:He deserves an explanation because he's a commanding officer on board the ship that's currently under attack. Pretty much. Poe is seemingly the ranking pilot and presumed CAG of all remaining fighter pilots in the Resistance. People acting like he has no right to know are just absurd. You'd think he'd be the person to involve given her plan involves shuttles, people to fly them, and so on. It's funny, too, if you look at the novel. When the First Order fleet shows up, Poe goes to detail his plan of attack to Leia, who actively tells him not to bother her with it and do what he thinks is best. But then I guess she gets cold feet and demotes him when people start to die? Even in the film, Poe had to surely get some level of clearance to launch all those bombers and fighters. And it's ignoring that by the time Leia tells him to retreat, the enemy TIEs are already out and the bombers are slow as poo poo and vulnerable. It also ignores that the cruiser could just jump away and the Rebel fighters could jump away, too, given how they've always had hyperdrives. The need for the fighters to come back before they could jump is just another thing Johnson lifted wholesale from Battlestar Galactica without trying to make it work in Star Wars. Horizon Burning fucked around with this message at 06:30 on Nov 19, 2019 |
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Nov 19, 2019 06:23
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The debate over Holdo’s Plan is a red herring because, even though the plan is objectively bad (she could have, at any point, instantly sent a team to activate the radio using the hyperspace pod(s)), it’s a distraction from the context that the Resistance are basically Contras. Arguing over who should lead them is pointless. Because of franchise thinking, everyone ignores that The Last Jedi opens with an assault on an isolated military base. A nonzero number of people in the audience are watching this as their first-ever Star Wars film. So: what is expressed here? Why are we to support this military base? (Why doesn’t the base have anti-aircraft shields when those were evidently standard issue 40 years earlier? Why don’t they have a radio?)
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Nov 19, 2019 06:31
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:The debate over Holdo’s Plan is a red herring because, even though the plan is objectively bad (she could have, at any point, instantly sent a team to activate the radio using the hyperspace pod(s)), it’s a distraction from the context that the Resistance are basically Contras. Arguing over who should lead them is pointless. Not that this hasn't been pointed out before, but it's really notable how grounded the first two trilogies are in political conflicts with extremely clear real world analogues (democracy falling into despotism and insurgency/civil war). What is the ST even depicting? The closest thing seems to be Weimar Germany but, like, really dumb.
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Nov 19, 2019 07:00
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It’s like Saturday morning GI Joe vs Cobra levels of bad jingoism, but in favor of the political machine that wages war in general rather than commenting on any specific ideology.
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Nov 19, 2019 09:47
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well why not posted:What’s insane is that THIS is the franchise that’s rushed. They could’ve tapped dozens of people or metres of EE stories but instead it’s slap shot and rough shod. How is this franchise only slightly more organised than loving x-men? Out of their 4 movies, only Solo was a mis step in terms of returns. I personally think their movies have been underwhelming in most measurable regards, but for what matters to Disney as a corporation and it's interests, half assing the franchise is a success.
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Nov 19, 2019 12:19
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ruddiger posted:It’s like Saturday morning GI Joe vs Cobra levels of bad jingoism, but in favor of the political machine that wages war in general rather than commenting on any specific ideology. Imagine the Gi Joe episode the weekend after an IRL Cobra Commander did 9/11 and you'd have a good analog to The Last Jedi. Babysitter Super Sleuth fucked around with this message at 12:25 on Nov 19, 2019 |
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Nov 19, 2019 12:20
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Horizon Burning posted:This is so dumb, dude. Holdo is wearing what amounts to an evening gown on the bridge of a starship where virtually everyone else is wearing military uniforms. In fact, I feel pretty safe in saying that she's the only character except Leia, who is a political leader and figurehead, to do so. Even Leia, with her overcoat-esque cloak and dark colors brings to mind a revolutionary leader (in-exile or otherwise). Is Lieutenant Connix suffering from internalized misogyny, too?
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Nov 19, 2019 12:40
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Horizon Burning posted:
Do you think Mon Mothma, who stays aboard the ship, put on some camo pants and a tactical vest during the space battle of Endor? Do you think that during the space battle above Yavin that Leia simply didnt have any extra fatigues to change into?
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Nov 19, 2019 13:11
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Timeless Appeal posted:It is sexist to judge lady in the workplace for wearing lady clothes. Its unprofessional as gently caress.
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Nov 19, 2019 13:45
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It's actually loving insane just how good Respawn takes all of the dreck from the Prequels like Order 66 and turns it into an actually engaging plot tool by cutting out all the bullshit and focusing on a limited range of characters you might actually care about, instead of a lovely montage including sexy midriff Twilek Jedi-lady. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7oFeDJpUaI It's not amazing or perfect per se, but base competency is like a breath of fresh air after all these years.
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Nov 19, 2019 13:50
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So is Fallen Order's story actually good? I get bored so fast thinking that I have to play as a generic white guy Jedi.
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Nov 19, 2019 13:56
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Taintrunner posted:
He forgot to make a joke Classic CAD problem
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Nov 19, 2019 14:19
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banned from Starbucks posted:Do you think Mon Mothma, who stays aboard the ship, put on some camo pants and a tactical vest during the space battle of Endor? I'd assume Mon Mothma, being purely a civilian leader, didn't give any orders during the battle.
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Nov 19, 2019 14:26
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Leia wasn't a military member until Empire after which she wore military clothing. They put Holdo in a flowing dress because they were trying to evoke something from the previous films they failed to understand. She could very well be a civilian leader in charge of the fleet though, that could have been more interesting.
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Nov 19, 2019 14:36
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Timeless Appeal posted:It is sexist to judge lady in the workplace for wearing lady clothes. Do women in the military wear 'lady clothes?' No? banned from Starbucks posted:Do you think Mon Mothma, who stays aboard the ship, put on some camo pants and a tactical vest during the space battle of Endor? Was Leia participating in the battle and giving orders? No?
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Nov 19, 2019 15:23
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Timeless Appeal posted:It is sexist to judge lady in the workplace for wearing lady clothes. She's a military officer. She's supposed to be wearing a uniform unless the Resistance has Casual Fridays. 
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Nov 19, 2019 15:24
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SimonCat posted:She's a military officer. She's supposed to be wearing a uniform unless the Resistance has Casual Fridays. TLJ is a fictional movie.
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Nov 19, 2019 15:26
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General solo wore an army uniform in ROTJ (He didn’t)
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Nov 19, 2019 15:27
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euphronius posted:TLJ is a fictional movie. Oh, so it doesn't have to have consistent internal logic?
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Nov 19, 2019 15:27
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euphronius posted:General solo wore an army uniform in ROTJ Solo is a "captain" in the sense that Jack Sparrow is.
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Nov 19, 2019 15:29
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SimonCat posted:Oh, so it doesn't have to have consistent internal logic? The picture you posted isn’t from a Star Wars movie Not sure what this point is you are making
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Nov 19, 2019 15:29
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SimonCat posted:Solo is a "captain" in the sense that Jack Sparrow is. No he was a General like Holdo is an Admiral Also Jedi generals don’t wear uniforms. General Kenobi didn’t wear a uniform Also maybe Holdos outfit is a uniform in her culture?
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Nov 19, 2019 15:30
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euphronius posted:The picture you posted isn’t from a Star Wars movie It's a picture of a woman who is an officer in the Navy. She looks professional and that she belongs on the bridge of a ship. If she was wearing an evening dress no one would assume she was in the command structure. I used a picture of an actual uniform as it was easier to find. Have you even been following the conversation?
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Nov 19, 2019 15:31
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euphronius posted:Also maybe Holdos outfit is a uniform in her culture? What culture is she from?
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Nov 19, 2019 15:32
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Holdo doesn’t look professional now ?
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Nov 19, 2019 15:32
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euphronius posted:Holdo doesn’t look professional now ? No, she doesn't.
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Nov 19, 2019 15:33
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SimonCat posted:No, she doesn't. Lmao. That’s what I thought.
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Nov 19, 2019 15:33
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euphronius posted:Also Jedi generals don’t wear uniforms. General Kenobi didn’t wear a uniform Yes they do. It's their robes. Because they are warrior monks. Sequel defenders are so dumb lmfao
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Nov 19, 2019 15:34
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