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NikkolasKing posted:Why didn't Ken Shamrock take off more in WWF? Everybody knows him and he certainly had presence as a character and in the ring He wouldn't have been top guy with Rock and Austin there but he wasn't even a main eventer or a sort of main eventer. I've heard two strikes against him HBK didn't like him, supposedly He could be stiff sometimes Vader had the same issues
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Dec 4, 2019 19:38
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He also got lost in the shuffle after they went with the Corporate Champion storyline with the Rock at Survivor Series '98. And being part of that awful UPYORS union stable didn't help at all in '99.
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Dec 4, 2019 19:41
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NikkolasKing posted:Why didn't Ken Shamrock take off more in WWF? Everybody knows him and he certainly had presence as a character and in the ring He wouldn't have been top guy with Rock and Austin there but he wasn't even a main eventer or a sort of main eventer. There's a reason why people don't really recall any memorable Shamrock promos.
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Dec 4, 2019 19:42
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What about when he was IN THE ZONE?!
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Dec 4, 2019 19:45
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Yeah randomly turning him heel in the back half of 98 killed him dead
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Dec 4, 2019 19:48
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Shamrock in 97 is really pushed as being a star, certainty Vince had plans for him above Rocky Maivia at this point. By early 98 Rock had began to catch on and Shamrock was the perfect baby-face to go up against him. The two are almost complete opposites as far as wrestlers go. The feud kinda petered out with Rock constantly getting the upper hand on Shamrock but I don't think he ever pinned him. When KOTR 98 came round, Shamrock finally got the clean win in the tournament finals and put their feud to bed but it was clear by this point who the bigger star would be in WWF. Then came Shamrock's heel turn which was quite bizarre as he was still somewhat over, and then he joined the corporation in a role that could have been utilised by literally anybody else. By the time he turned face again and paired up with the Union, his stock had really dropped. After a feud with Steve Blackman (check out their iron circle match) WWF tried to recreate the magic of the Rock feud by pairing Ken with Chris Jericho but Shamrock quit not long after to return to MMA. Had he stayed, he might have gotten lost in the shuffle of incoming talent (Tazz, Kurt Angle, Radicalz) but I think he could have worked a decent program with Angle.
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Dec 4, 2019 20:35
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NikkolasKing posted:Why didn't Ken Shamrock take off more in WWF? Everybody knows him and he certainly had presence as a character and in the ring He wouldn't have been top guy with Rock and Austin there but he wasn't even a main eventer or a sort of main eventer. They wouldn't push him as special. He was just kind of a guy for most of his run instead of a killer.
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Dec 4, 2019 20:36
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anakha posted:There's a reason why people don't really recall any memorable Shamrock promos.
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Dec 4, 2019 20:37
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Shamrock was in that "Ahmed Johnson zone" of guys who get pushed pretty hard and remain very protected but never really go anywhere. It's that awkward spot of being too over for the midcard but too green or unproven to build the show around. Typically they end up getting booked in one token title match, and then comes an ill-advised heel turn as WWE can't come up with anything else to do with them. I think timing also killed him as he came in while Undertaker was champion, and the title then went from Bret to Shawn to Austin. That's a pretty airtight title scene (although Bret claims he would have dropped the title to Shamrock before the Montreal Survivor Series) and once Austin is in the picture it's drat hard to introduce another relatively new face to the top.
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Dec 4, 2019 21:16
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anakha posted:There's a reason why people don't really recall any memorable Shamrock promos. There's a in ring segment where the Union defeated the Corporation so were given anything they wished for. Big Show challenged for the WWF title, Test requested a date with Stephanie and Shamrock demanded a lion's den match with Vince. Shamrock angrily shouting into the camera while it cuts to bug eyed fearful Vince is legitimate one of my favourite wrestling moments.
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Dec 4, 2019 21:26
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Breitbart Is Rightbart posted:Shamrock demanded a lion's den match with Vince. Between the roided billionaire and the legit MMA fighter, guess who booked himself to win this match.
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Dec 4, 2019 22:17
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I don’t really understand the hype behind Kenny Omega. I get that he’s a good technical wrestler, and I liked his match with Okada (also I know about his whole thing with Ibushi), but most of my exposure to him is via AEW, where he seems very much on par with other wrestlers and isn’t like wow amazing or anything. Can I get an explanation of why he’s so significant?
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Dec 4, 2019 22:31
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Pollyanna posted:I don’t really understand the hype behind Kenny Omega. I get that he’s a good technical wrestler, and I liked his match with Okada (also I know about his whole thing with Ibushi), but most of my exposure to him is via AEW, where he seems very much on par with other wrestlers and isn’t like wow amazing or anything. Can I get an explanation of why he’s so significant? that's because in AEW he's one of the higher ups and they(the elite) aren't trying to put themselves over at the expense of others. if you wanna see why everyone loves him and thinks so highly of him you have to look at the pre-AEW stuff.
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Dec 4, 2019 22:46
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It's not entirely a product of his wrestling skill (which is very good even if I don't really like him, don't get me wrong) but also the fact that he was the leader of NJPW's Bullet Club faction at a time when NJPW was gaining a bunch of overseas followers and Bullet Club in particular was becoming massively popular. Combine that timing with the fact that he also went and had a ton of great matches while at the top of this stable that had a lot of eyes on it and you get a huge star. The timing and position he was in are almost as important as the matches themselves.
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Dec 4, 2019 22:55
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Pollyanna posted:I don’t really understand the hype behind Kenny Omega. I get that he’s a good technical wrestler, and I liked his match with Okada (also I know about his whole thing with Ibushi), but most of my exposure to him is via AEW, where he seems very much on par with other wrestlers and isn’t like wow amazing or anything. Can I get an explanation of why he’s so significant? When it comes to talks of people being the best or better than others a lot of it is consistency and longevity. Jericho is considered great because of how long he's been a top player and can keep himself relevant. Okada is considered by many THE best in the world for his ability to carry an entire promotion on his back with 5+ star classics with a gambit of opponents for years. And Omega is much the same in his ability to have great match after great match. I also like how snappy he is and fast.
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Dec 4, 2019 23:15
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Pollyanna posted:I don’t really understand the hype behind Kenny Omega. Well, right, and IMO he hasn’t done much with his AEW run yet. Most of the “Kenny Omega the best bout machine” legacy is from 2015-18 in New Japan, including his G1 win in 2016 and title matches in 2017. If you can, go check out his G1 Climax Final match (both his win and, honestly, the 2017 final he lost against Naito) and the trilogy against Okada. Watch the pacing, watch for callbacks and how the earliest match is built upon in the following matches.
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Dec 4, 2019 23:36
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His stuff from DDT is worth a watch as well if you can find it: lots of it show a very different side to Kenny which I like. Probably the big one though is the Kenny Omega/Kota Ibushi singles match from 2012 in Budokan Hall; which I think is better than their New Japan match and is a big battle of two partners with Kenny trying (and failing) to prove that he had surpassed Ibushi. Another great one is a Golden Lovers tag against Konosuke Takeshita and Tetsuya Endo: at the time it was a battle of the then-present of DDT (although this was when Ibushi was on the way out to work for New Japan more regularly) with its future; the people that would become the top two stars of the future. And indeed Kenny went back to DDT for Ultimate Party this year to wrestle a very very good Mixed Tag match teaming with Riho against Antonio Honda and Miyu Yamashita which is a mix of everything I like about the guy: there are comedy spots but they aren't all of the match and for most of it its just a very fast-paced fun mixed tag match with some creative double team spots - DDT do these intergender tag matches better than anyone else on the planet in the first place and this match had Kenny clearly being much more motivated than he is in AEW teaming with Riho who always works hard against Miyu Yamashita, the best woman DDT have in the biggest match of her career to this point and Antonio Honda, the best comedy wrestler in the world who can and does regularly switch into Big Match mode when he needs to and he did that here. Minor pet peeve though to your point: I'd not say Omega is a "good technical wrestler". He's a good wrestler sure; at his peak one of the best around but when I think "good technical wrestler" I don't think of people like him; I think of the Hideki Suzuki's of the world: the people that are so good at the grappling side of wrestling where it looks like they can tie their opponents in knots and that isn't really what Kenny does.
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Dec 4, 2019 23:59
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Pollyanna posted:I don’t really understand the hype behind Kenny Omega. I get that he’s a good technical wrestler, and I liked his match with Okada (also I know about his whole thing with Ibushi), but most of my exposure to him is via AEW, where he seems very much on par with other wrestlers and isn’t like wow amazing or anything. Can I get an explanation of why he’s so significant? In NJPW he was working against some of the very best wrestlers in the world and regularly getting to out on great matches with the likes of Okada, Naito, Ishii, Yano etc. He doesn't really have opponents on that level in AEW. The best wrestler that they have for his type of match is Shida and I'm pretty sure that isn't happening.
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Dec 5, 2019 00:00
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Omega’s a big deal because, essentially, Wrestle Kingdom 11 happened and people reacted with “that might be the best match ever performed”, and then he and Okada topped that six months later. Meanwhile, Omega also had great matches with all the other heavyweights in New Japan and got a nice, slow, nearly two year build from winning the G1 in August 2016 to June 2018 to getting the belt off of Okada, while also being pushed as the face of American expansion. In AEW he doesn’t have the roster to work against he had in New Japan, his story is currently “man lost behind the legend that preceded him”, and he doesn’t necessarily get the ring time that he got back in Japan, working for TV and being more tightly timed - has he had an over thirty minute match in AEW yet beyond like, the Mox match and maybe Alpha/Omega II?
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Dec 5, 2019 01:46
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They're definitely trying to put in reminders of how good he is with the recent subplot of him finding weird angry intensity, even if it's in matches that don't really matter. They've been extremely heavy on Kenny Omega offense if just to keep him simmering on the back burner. Dynamite is still trying to introduce more of its characters and build some storylines, but Kenny isn't going to be booked in a slump forever.
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Dec 5, 2019 22:22
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Nehru the Damaja posted:They're definitely trying to put in reminders of how good he is with the recent subplot of him finding weird angry intensity, even if it's in matches that don't really matter. They've been extremely heavy on Kenny Omega offense if just to keep him simmering on the back burner. Dynamite is still trying to introduce more of its characters and build some storylines, but Kenny isn't going to be booked in a slump forever. Kenny also has an interest in AEW doing good well after his retirement since he is one of the main people behind the company. Frankly it's really unselfish of him to not be the top star right away. This company is built around unselfish people.
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Dec 5, 2019 22:29
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Spikegal posted:Kenny also has an interest in AEW doing good well after his retirement since he is one of the main people behind the company. Frankly it's really unselfish of him to not be the top star right away. This company is built around unselfish people. Yeah, Kenny and the Bucks do a lot to neutralize my distant concern that Cody and Brandi will put themselves front and center too much. It already bugs me a little that Cody does his full PPV entrance whenever he comes out to do anything.
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Dec 5, 2019 22:41
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Cody reminds me of 90s Ric Flair. He was never the cornerstone of the show like Hogan or Sting but he was a big drat deal and he had these amazing promos with an announcer in the ring. That's how I feel about Cody and frankly since he's been killing it in that roll I don't even have a problem with it.
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Dec 5, 2019 22:50
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CombineThresher posted:Yeah, Kenny and the Bucks do a lot to neutralize my distant concern that Cody and Brandi will put themselves front and center too much. It already bugs me a little that Cody does his full PPV entrance whenever he comes out to do anything. I always hear "Kenny and the Bucks" to the tune of "Benny and the Jets"
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Dec 5, 2019 23:18
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Spikegal posted:Cody reminds me of 90s Ric Flair. He was never the cornerstone of the show like Hogan or Sting but he was a big drat deal and he had these amazing promos with an announcer in the ring. That's how I feel about Cody and frankly since he's been killing it in that roll I don't even have a problem with it. He was the cornerstone in my heart  It's always 6:05 in wrasslin' heaven
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Dec 5, 2019 23:22
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IceAgeComing posted:\ There's way more to technical wrestling than just "good at grapplefucking" and I hate how the term has become shoehorned that way. When you watch an Omega match and pay attention to his pacing, timing, execution of the moves, and overall fundamentals, it's very obvious that he's one of the best of his era at the technical side of wrestling.
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Dec 5, 2019 23:38
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the two biggest technical wrestling gods of the early 2000s were benoit and bryan danielson and it was because they were so crisp, consistent, and flowed everything together in a way that looked like there was little to no wasted movement. i'm not sure who came along and turned technical wrestling into the grapevine gang
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Dec 5, 2019 23:43
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Enzo Amore was technically a wrestler
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Dec 5, 2019 23:44
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Cavauro posted:grapevine gang hello this is my gang , its me, tim thatcher, hideki suzuki, and johnathan grisham. we all wear hideki's purple trunks.
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Dec 6, 2019 02:08
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Drew McIntyre posted:Enzo Amore was technically a wrestler A hot dog is technically a sandwich
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Dec 6, 2019 03:03
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Suplex Liberace posted:hello this is my gang , its me, tim thatcher, hideki suzuki, and johnathan grisham. we all wear hideki's purple trunks. What is updog.
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Dec 6, 2019 03:09
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Spikegal posted:Kenny also has an interest in AEW doing good well after his retirement since he is one of the main people behind the company. Frankly it's really unselfish of him to not be the top star right away. This company is built around unselfish people. Kenny actually said during an early interview that he actively doesn't want to be the company ace and is happy to step back and just participate in good matches with good wrestlers.
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Dec 6, 2019 07:01
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And now I'm remembering a mid 90s WCW promo where Jim Duggan called Hogan "a great technical wrestler", shattering kayfabe into a trillion pieces.
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Dec 6, 2019 07:01
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What wrestlers have amusing/consistent “weakness feuds”? I will name a few of what I’m talking about: 1) Randy Savage vs Royal Rumble match rules 2) Pentagon Jr vs Sight Gags (masks, dupes, the Gobbler) 3) Randy Orton vs tables
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Dec 6, 2019 07:18
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Prokhor Zakharov posted:Kenny actually said during an early interview that he actively doesn't want to be the company ace and is happy to step back and just participate in good matches with good wrestlers. I find that really weird to be honest. If I were AEW (or even anyone with a vested interested in their success) and debuting, I'd be pushing the biggest star Pre AEW at the start of the show as the biggest star in the company. He can lose later but now he should be absolutely murdering people so there's no doubt that he's a big deal. Like Moxley and he should be the top stars, and everything should be able getting them as hot as possible so whoever paid a ticket to see AEW on the strength of the names involved gets to see them be what they paid to see. Then a year later or whenever they can be unseated and someone else can come up maybe. I dunno. Unless he doesn't want the pressure or something.
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Dec 6, 2019 09:03
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Wise Fwom Yo Gwave posted:What wrestlers have amusing/consistent “weakness feuds”? I will name a few of what I’m talking about : Kane and Inferno matches?
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Dec 6, 2019 09:03
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Von Linus posted:Kane and Inferno matches? Undertaker and Buried Alive matches, too
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Dec 6, 2019 09:06
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Wise Fwom Yo Gwave posted:What wrestlers have amusing/consistent “weakness feuds”? I will name a few of what I’m talking about : Seth Rollins vs. Logging Off Twitter
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Dec 6, 2019 09:08
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Benne posted:Seth Rollins vs. Logging Off Twitter lol
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Dec 6, 2019 09:18
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Drew McIntyre posted:Enzo Amore was technically a wrestler *Sports Entertainer
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Dec 6, 2019 09:22
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