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Cyrano4747 posted:Three is considered an important number in a lot of numerological traditions. I don't know specifically about what was going on in ancient Judea with regards to that, but that would be my guess. Yeah that occurred to me, I also wondered if maybe three days relates to something in Jewish funeral customs?
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Jan 2, 2020 17:28
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Fritz the Horse posted:Yeah that occurred to me, I also wondered if maybe three days relates to something in Jewish funeral customs? I don't think so. You bury the dead ASAP and shiva lasts for seven days.
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Jan 2, 2020 17:31
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40 days just implies a long time. 3 means something like that but I have to crack a book to remember what it was.
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Jan 2, 2020 17:37
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40 also has significance in Jewish numerology...its a number that signifies change and transformation to a new spiritual state. So, during the flood, it rained for 40 days. Moses was on Sinai for 40 days. The exodus took 40 years. A mikva has to co train 40 se'ah of water. An embryo takes 49 days to form in the womb. A person se tended to corporal punishment cant get more than 39 lashes, because 40 would degrade him. And so on. So generally, in Judaism, when you hear about 40 something, it's about something or someone changing their spiritual state.
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Jan 2, 2020 17:37
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Fritz the Horse posted:Lots of politics and economics chat in this here religion thread 40 was used by ancient jews the same way we use the numbers 100 or 1000 or 1 million. It's an actual number but its also a number you use when you just want to signify A LOT of something. That;s why its also 40 days Noah spent in the ark, 40 years the Jews spent in the desert, 40 curses upon Adam etc
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Jan 2, 2020 17:38
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HEY GUNS posted:my first question would be why don't you want sticks? the idea of a charcoal fire in my house scares me--I like breathing O2 Because it isn't as ~~~special~~~ You do raise a good point. HopperUK posted:You don't have to use charcoal! I have a little burner that uses a tea light candle under a little brass disk where the incense sits. I don't like sticks because there is always, to me, an under scent of like-- bacon. Thanks for both tips.
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Jan 2, 2020 17:41
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HEY GUNS posted:to the people who want secular public ethics: Hume, Kant, Locke, Mill, Rawls, the Federalist Papers. Avoid Macintyre, he's a Catholic trying to smuggle Catholicism in through the back door while the reader isn't looking. Definitely avoid Spinoza. I would like to recommend Kant here. "Act only according to that maxim whereby you can, at the same time, will that it should become a universal law." (i.e., act in such a way that you would be willing to accept everyone else acting the same way in that position). and "Act in such a way that you treat humanity, whether in your own person or in the person of any other, never merely as a means to an end, but always at the same time as an end." (i.e., never treat people as objects). I think that sums up a reasonable secular public ethics quite well, although obviously others disagree.
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Jan 2, 2020 18:35
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HEY GUNS posted:this is absolutely not healthy Nothing is ever finished, and we have to change things often. Why is that so weird/unhealthy? Also, why ignore Spinoza? I don't really understand a lot of his work, but I'd always heard good things about him.
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Jan 2, 2020 18:44
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ThePopeOfFun posted:Incense chat. I'll suggest Three Kings or Monastery, both of which I feel are superior to Prinknash. The blend commonly sold as Three Kings is actually #3 Petrus and it's lovely and bright but won't go sour on the charcoal after a long burn time, which will often happen with frankincense-based blends. Monastery makes Damascus Rose which is the only incense I have ever found that actually smells of roses while burning. Their Sweet Balsam and Queen of Heaven are also sublime. I will freely admit that I usually use this stuff when doing weird pagan things, but I bought Queen of Heaven on a lark a few years ago to try out as a regular offering for Isis (Queen of Heaven is one of Her epithets) and it's amazing stuff. Monastery won't melt onto the charcoal and can be easily scraped off to make room for fresh incense. Monastery makes a sample pack with all their fragrances so you can experiment and see what you like. Three Kings won't smoke your house out as quickly, but Monastery's stuff will leave a good haze of smoke and the fragrance will last for days. You can also experiment with making your own, but this can get pricey and you might make some literal stinkers before you come up with something agreeable. My opinion has always been that if your ritual space doesn't look like the inside of a car from a Cheech and Chong movie when the ritual is finished then you didn't use enough incense. But as it says in the Book of the Prophet Jeremiah, it is good to burn incense to the Queen of Heaven and to make drink offerings to Her.
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Jan 2, 2020 18:48
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Josef bugman posted:Also, why ignore Spinoza? I don't really understand a lot of his work, but I'd always heard good things about him. Spinoza owns. It's kind of the first universalist theology to stick with me, iirc HEY GUNS posted:my first question would be why don't you want sticks? the idea of a charcoal fire in my house scares me--I like breathing O2 Didn't you and a bunch of other posters poke fun at me for thinking rooms should be aired out?
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Jan 2, 2020 19:29
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I'm sure there are good sources available online but from the top of my head some imperfect numerological basics for the Bible: 6 is the number of man (as in human) 7 is the number of God/perfection (see for example the question for Jesus about how many times you should forgive) 1 and 3 are both numbers related to the divine/God 40 is as explained above Jewish letters also have numerical values so reading the scripture in Hebrew probably had lots of intended and unintended meanings that are lost on today's readers and/or feed today's conspiracy theories. Edit: number 12 does some really heavy lifting because it's the number of the Israeli tribes and thus often means the entirety of God's own people. (read about the 12 apostles with that in mind, for example) Valiantman fucked around with this message at 19:59 on Jan 2, 2020 |
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Jan 2, 2020 19:55
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Valiantman posted:I'm sure there are good sources available online but from the top of my head some imperfect numerological basics for the Bible: 4 is the horizontal number (four compass directions), while 3 is the vertical number (above, below, and surface). 7 is then horizontal + vertical, or everything.
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Jan 2, 2020 19:58
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Deteriorata posted:4 is the horizontal number (four compass directions), while 3 is the vertical number (above, below, and surface). 7 is then horizontal + vertical, or everything. That is new to me, thanks! (Not that I'd researched much at all)
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Jan 2, 2020 20:00
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HEY GUNS posted:when do you think the quality of life was better? do you have a specific year/ballpark estimate? Similarly, if the us "has always been a dystopia," then...compared to what? which country do you have in mind that isn't? and when? Most claims like these, when examined, seem to me to rest less on actual data and more on some vague "feeling" that there must be another time or another place when things were better and since then there has been "decline."* So give a time and place. Our lifetimes? When. Material conditions are not the be-all end-all of life, but they are a very major factor, and it is also difficult to organically experience the benefits of improvements in other nations, particularly when they're distant or have linguistic or cultural barriers. The US "always being a dystopia" would primarily be about how a huge amount of this country's bedrock foundations includes slavery and the expropriation of native Americans. e: at least in my view, you mighta been talking to Bugman
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Jan 2, 2020 21:34
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Josef bugman posted:Nothing is ever finished, and we have to change things often. Why is that so weird/unhealthy? I'm not speaking for our dear cousin-in-faith Hey Guns, of course. I believe there is the imperative to transform the present situation. On that you and I agree. I also think that there is a healthy way to approach this imperative, which is to struggle with a happy heart. Yes, there is suffering, and there's ignorance and bad choices about suffering which only lead to more suffering. At the same time, there is also an uncountable number of things to be grateful for, like the air in your lungs, good company, and the opportunity to respond to what is wrong in the world. I believe you may know this, so I am not saying you don't have gratitude or joy in the struggle. Just in general, we are advised to not lose our freshness and morale in the struggle. One who is in the midst of despair needs help; it is not appropriate to expect them to be at their max helpfulness. So if we can keep ourselves girded for the long, good fight, we may be more effective than if we become easily defeated and sour. It reminds me of MLK Jr, who said on the night before he was murdered that he had no fear of any enemy because he has supreme confidence in the ultimate victory of the struggle for love and justice. At the same time, had he lived, it's reported that his next sermon would have been titled, "Why America May Go To Hell." The combination of his unconquered hope and his clear-sightedness about the dangers, misery, and malfeasance of the world is why he is such an enduring role model of mine. Nessus posted:I don't really know the skill set we need in order to navigate all of this. Most 'media literacy' things I have seen have boiled down to 'Is this article blatantly lying to you or otherwise right wing propaganda?' and doesn't seem to address meta issues like "after you've spent three hours reading these articles, did you learn anything?" or "what is your goal in this online argument?" One thing that's been suggested by Plum Village monastics as a start is to read an article and identify the feelings in it. It should cover the feelings of the subjects, perhaps the feelings of the writer as best it can be discerned , and of course your feelings as the reader. This exercise does not directly tackle the matter of veracity, but it is meant to shed light on the drivers of these stories. Hopefully, no one is bored or offended that I keep referencing the Plum Village Tradition. It's relatively new, which may always invite skepticism, but I find it very helpful, especially as an Asian-American immigrant but western-educated and without a familial background in Buddhism. I think it's also suitable for folks with all levels of intellectual capacity (including high, which I think is average for this thread) who have a sensitivity or curiosity about spiritual needs and malnutrition. edit: I know nothing bout nobody. Caufman fucked around with this message at 22:53 on Jan 2, 2020 |
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Jan 2, 2020 22:01
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I'm not offended by the Plum Village tradition at all, but Hey Guns is a fella so you ought to update that.
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Jan 2, 2020 22:10
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everyone, use the AIM field in your profile page to list your pronouns.
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Jan 3, 2020 00:31
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PHIZ KALIFA posted:everyone, use the AIM field in your profile page to list your pronouns. Do you have any good introductory resources on Plum Village, caufman? I've heard of Thich Nhat Hanh of course. (This might also be good content for the Buddhism thread, which presently exercises noble silence)
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Jan 3, 2020 00:58
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Mad Hamish posted:I'll suggest Three Kings or Monastery, both of which I feel are superior to Prinknash. The blend commonly sold as Three Kings is actually #3 Petrus and it's lovely and bright but won't go sour on the charcoal after a long burn time, which will often happen with frankincense-based blends. Ooo a good tip! I'll be honest, the only reason I use Prinknash is that the one blend smells *exactly* like I remember church smelling like when I was a kid so it's a whole sense-memory bit that makes me feel extremely safe and comfortable. I'm gonna get some of what you suggest though and experiment around a bit. e: This is the burner I have, if anyone wanted to see. After burning the incense grains stick to the disk and I have to scrape em off with a spoon handle, and there is a certain amount of soot under the disk which gets everywhere if you are mega-clumsy like me. But I love it anyways. https://www.amazon.co.uk/Aromafume-Diffuser-Incense-Tealight-Coaster/dp/B01BIQM5PC/ HopperUK fucked around with this message at 02:49 on Jan 3, 2020 |
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Jan 3, 2020 02:46
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Also docbeard got probated for posting auguries in CSPAM, shun him
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Jan 3, 2020 02:51
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Valiantman posted:I'm sure there are good sources available online but from the top of my head some imperfect numerological basics for the Bible: Hey uh you know Jews still exist and read the Torah in Hebrew, right? And study it in light of thousands of years of commentary? Don't confuse "today's readers" with "Christian readers".
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Jan 3, 2020 03:13
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HopperUK posted:Also docbeard got probated for posting auguries in CSPAM, shun him Look, sometimes you just gotta know when the harvest is gonna be ready.
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Jan 3, 2020 03:35
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Augury's for the birds if you ask me
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Jan 3, 2020 05:52
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Organza Quiz posted:Hey uh you know Jews still exist and read the Torah in Hebrew, right? And study it in light of thousands of years of commentary? Don't confuse "today's readers" with "Christian readers". My bad, poor choice of words! I don't actually know how much ancient Hebrew differs from today's and was kind of assuming without thinking that it's totally different. Which is a stupid assumption to make, had I thought about it at all. Thanks for catching that.
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Jan 3, 2020 06:21
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HopperUK posted:Also docbeard got probated for posting auguries in CSPAM, shun him What did he augur? Also, did you get around to watching Two Popes? BIG FLUFFY DOG posted:Augury's from the birds if you ask me ftfy!
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Jan 3, 2020 14:36
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United Methodist Church is expected to split over gay marriage disagreement, fracturing the nation’s third-largest denominationquote:The United Methodist Church is expected to split into more than one denomination in an attempt to bring to a close a years-long and contentious fight over gay marriage. Well, here we go. 
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Jan 3, 2020 17:19
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hey, is it just a New England thing to serve the communion hot? I know a few worship leaders who wheel a crock pot up to the front and give everyone a ladel of mulled and watered wine or grape juice. Someone mentioned the Eucharist containing raisin, so I wonder just how local this is.BIG FLUFFY DOG posted:Augury's for the birds if you ask me lmaaaaoooooo
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Jan 3, 2020 17:42
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Deteriorata posted:Well, here we go. Church leaders: "We're losing members at amazing rates!"[1] Also church leaders: "We'd rather split the church than accept any icky gay people!"[2] [1] https://churchleaders.com/pastors/p...YoI4SHh9ZkkyKzQ [2] https://www.washingtonpost.com/reli...-tBXw-pE1OeLets
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Jan 3, 2020 17:58
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Deteriorata posted:United Methodist Church is expected to split over gay marriage disagreement, fracturing the nation’s third-largest denomination Yeah this sucks, unfortunately it seems to be almost inevitable for mainstream Protestant groups in the US, the UMC is the last sizable denomination I'm aware of that hasn't schismed over LGBTQ stuff and ordaining women (but mostly LGBTQ marriage and ordination). The Anglicans, Lutherans, Presbyterians etc have all had "traditionalist" groups splinter off. I really hope my parents' UMC church doesn't join the "traditionalist" faction, I suspect they would stop attending if it does. Either way it's likely to tear apart the congregation since there are strong feelings on both sides and I'm assuming it will eventually come to a vote. Last summer one of our deacons gave a sermon (pastor was ill) about how LGBTQ people were possessed by demons and anyone who recognized LGBTQ identities or supported their rights was following a false God. My dad's a longtime friend of his and approached him after church and said "thanks for giving the sermon, I disagree about your conclusions from Scripture and would like to discuss it sometime." The guy replied "well if you disagree then you're worshipping Satan" and my dad came pretty close to decking the guy in the fellowship hall. They don't talk anymore. Anyway I'll be praying for as peaceful and amiable a transition as possible for the UMC, though it's going to divide communities and cause a lot of strife no matter what. It might be idealistic of me but I hope for a future where the various mainstream American Protestant denominations become more unified, maybe even loosely joined. There's already a lot of agreements of full communion between them, and I think they'd be stronger together than as a bunch of smaller denominations. PHIZ KALIFA posted:hey, is it just a New England thing to serve the communion hot? I know a few worship leaders who wheel a crock pot up to the front and give everyone a ladel of mulled and watered wine or grape juice. Someone mentioned the Eucharist containing raisin, so I wonder just how local this is. I've never heard of this but tbh mulled wine sounds pretty nice for winter time. edit: ulmont posted:Also church leaders: "We'd rather split the church than accept any icky gay people!"[2] It really is about icky gay people. If the conversation were about sexual morality broadly, okay, that's more palatable. But the traditionalists aren't talking about pornography, masturbation, fornication, adultery, etc (just as examples), it's all about LGBTQ stuff. I also think many of these traditionalists approach the conversation in the wrong way. It shouldn't be "are LGBTQ people bad and should we reject them?" but rather "how do we as Christians show love and acceptance to this marginalized group while maintaining our beliefs on gender and sexuality?" I mean, I'm a gay dude. I have strong opinions on this issue. I'd be more sympathetic toward "traditionalist" arguments if they didn't seem to mostly be in bad faith and actively exclusionary. Fritz the Horse fucked around with this message at 18:28 on Jan 3, 2020 |
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Jan 3, 2020 18:16
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Deteriorata, have you heard anything about how the UMC splintering will be handled internationally, particularly in Africa? My understanding was a lot of the anti-LGBTQ marriage/ordination pressure was from Africa which is where the growth in the UMC is coming from. This article https://www.christianitytoday.com/news/2020/january/united-methodist-church-umc-plan-protocol-split-plan.html talks about the Wesleyan Covenant Association forming a traditionalist denomination in the US but says nothing about international changes. Do you know if international conferences of the UMC will be able to vote to join the WCA too?
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Jan 3, 2020 18:35
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Tias posted:What did he augur? Also, did you get around to watching Two Popes? I didn't! I'll take a stab at it this weekend though.
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Jan 3, 2020 18:38
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Fritz the Horse posted:Deteriorata, have you heard anything about how the UMC splintering will be handled internationally, particularly in Africa? My understanding was a lot of the anti-LGBTQ marriage/ordination pressure was from Africa which is where the growth in the UMC is coming from. This article https://www.christianitytoday.com/news/2020/january/united-methodist-church-umc-plan-protocol-split-plan.html talks about the Wesleyan Covenant Association forming a traditionalist denomination in the US but says nothing about international changes. Unfortunately, I don't really know anything about it. They've kept it all pretty close to the vest thus far and there hasn't been much discussion in our local congregation, either. We've all kind of been on tenterhooks wondering how it was going to shake out. My own congregation is pretty conservative overall, so I wouldn't be shocked if they voted to go with the WCA. If they do, I'll be looking for a new church. I hope they surprise me.
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Jan 3, 2020 18:40
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I've never heard of mulled wine being used for Communion, but I know that in some Greek churches they used to mix wine with hot water to make it resemble blood a bit more.
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Jan 3, 2020 18:40
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Paladinus posted:I've never heard of mulled wine being used for Communion, but I know that in some Greek churches they used to mix wine with hot water to make it resemble blood a bit more. They do this at my old OCA parish in Chicago
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Jan 3, 2020 18:41
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Slimy Hog posted:They do this at my old OCA parish in Chicago Oh, I didn't know it was still a thing. That's cool.
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Jan 3, 2020 18:45
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Paladinus posted:Oh, I didn't know it was still a thing. That's cool. Not sure if it's for the reason you said though, I THINK it's to better incorporate the bread with the wine to ensure that people don't just get one or the other.
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Jan 3, 2020 18:50
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Deteriorata posted:Unfortunately, I don't really know anything about it. They've kept it all pretty close to the vest thus far and there hasn't been much discussion in our local congregation, either. We've all kind of been on tenterhooks wondering how it was going to shake out. From that article it seems like the decision to stay/leave will be at the regional annual conference level and not by individual congregations? It's gonna be a painful mess either way, lots of members will be upset and there will inevitably be folks who leave for more progressive or traditional churches.
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Jan 3, 2020 18:51
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Deteriorata posted:United Methodist Church is expected to split over gay marriage disagreement, fracturing the nation’s third-largest denomination Been expecting this for a while. Some seriously unreconcilable differences going there. It's probably going to be uglier than the announcement presents, though, as IIRC the conservative parts of the denomination outside the US will possibly have enough votes to stop a clean break.
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Jan 3, 2020 19:09
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Paladinus posted:I've never heard of mulled wine being used for Communion, but I know that in some Greek churches they used to mix wine with hot water to make it resemble blood a bit more. The Catholic Church also puts water into the wine, but I don't know if it has to be warm.
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Jan 3, 2020 19:12
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Slimy Hog posted:They do this at my old OCA parish in Chicago We definitely do that at my OCA church too. I thought it was standard.
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Jan 3, 2020 19:16
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