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HEY GUNS posted:this was one of three wars they had going on at the time, how well could you have done in their place Let me just check my Spain WC map in EU...
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Jan 15, 2020 15:39
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SlothfulCobra posted:I don't know, I think anyone who was anyone in Mexico knew that Mexico didn't have a ghost of a chance in an invasion of the US. This thread has gone over how much industrial power America had compared to the whole of Europe, well Mexico had experienced that firsthand. Not just with the Mexican American war, but the fact that everybody in Mexico would go to America for guns when they wanted to get something military done. Unless Germany was willing to fund and supply the bulk of the invasion force while they were busy with the rest of the war. To me, the Zimmerman telegram serves mostly to highlight how poorly the US/Mexico relationship particularly, and North America generally was understood by European diplomats at the time. It seems to me that they assumed that the realities of European power politics probably existed everywhere, and tried to apply the exact same strategies that had gotten everyone into WWI in the first place.
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Jan 15, 2020 15:41
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To be fair to the Germans it seems to me more like a Hail Mary - the unrestricted submarine warfare campaign and the huge amounts of arms and money going from the US to the allied powers meant US entry into the war seemed inevitable. Given that you might as well try and get the Mexicans to do something stupid on your behalf since the situation probably isn't getting better any time soon. Like the Pearl Harbor attacks though there was probably an overestimation of how willing the US was to actually go to war, and the direct provocation of the Telegram sealed the deal when otherwise convincing the American public wasn't a sure thing.
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Jan 15, 2020 16:06
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MrYenko posted:To me, the Zimmerman telegram serves mostly to highlight how poorly the US/Mexico relationship particularly, and North America generally was understood by European diplomats at the time. It seems to me that they assumed that the realities of European power politics probably existed everywhere, and tried to apply the exact same strategies that had gotten everyone into WWI in the first place. It wasn’t that bad. The US imported a ton of labor with the Bracero program.
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Jan 15, 2020 16:32
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How much did the Monroe Doctrine actually matter?MikeCrotch posted:To be fair to the Germans it seems to me more like a Hail Mary - the unrestricted submarine warfare campaign and the huge amounts of arms and money going from the US to the allied powers meant US entry into the war seemed inevitable. Given that you might as well try and get the Mexicans to do something stupid on your behalf since the situation probably isn't getting better any time soon. It makes so much tactical sense to pre-empt what looks like an "inevitable" attack, and yet just like with Japan, history looks unkindly upon the idiot who moves first and turns a possibility of war into a certainty. Thus, the ancient and ridiculous art of fishing for a casus beli. The current US government is pulling that kind of supposedly preemptive attack bullshit, and it's still a horrible awful thing to do, with nebulous justification at best.
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Jan 15, 2020 16:49
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SlothfulCobra posted:How much did the Monroe Doctrine actually matter? It mattered at least in that it prompted USA to occupy Haiti for almost 20 years.
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Jan 15, 2020 17:01
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I think the Monroe Doctrine is basically formalising a natural inclination of big powerful states to be assholes to small states in their vicinity. I don't think it as a specific doctrine is that big of a deal.
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Jan 15, 2020 17:42
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I don't see any goddamn Englishmen around so I guess it worked pretty good
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Jan 15, 2020 17:48
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Fangz posted:I think the Monroe Doctrine is basically formalising a natural inclination of big powerful states to be assholes to small states in their vicinity. I don't think it as a specific doctrine is that big of a deal. Yeah, I think it was pretty well understood to be America proclaiming itself to be a colonial empire with its range of satellite states.
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Jan 15, 2020 18:20
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zoux posted:I don't see any goddamn Soviet subs around so I guess it worked pretty good
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Jan 15, 2020 18:25
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Well here's the thing about submarines Diabolical!
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Jan 15, 2020 18:31
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zoux posted:Well here's the thing about submarines huge if true
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Jan 15, 2020 20:59
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HEY GUNS posted:huge if true The sea is indeed large, yes.
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Jan 15, 2020 21:09
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wouldn't it be easier to hide the subs in a cave in Tibet or in the Gob desert, where nobody is looking for them
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Jan 15, 2020 21:14
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Nenonen posted:wouldn't it be easier to hide the subs in a cave in Tibet or in the Gob desert, where nobody is looking for them I think I read that in a Clive Cussler novel.
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Jan 15, 2020 21:19
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Nenonen posted:Gob desert C'MON
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Jan 15, 2020 21:23
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Jan 15, 2020 21:31
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gobs_program2.exe posted:newk newk newk newk newk newk newk newk newk newk newk newk newk newk newk newk newk newk newk newk newk newk newk newk newk newk newk newk newk newk newk newk newk newk newk newk newk newk newk newk newk newk newk newk newk newk newk newk newk newk newk newk newk newk newk newk newk newk newk newk newk newk newk newk newk newk newk newk newk newk newk newk newk newk newk newk newk newk newk newk newk newk newk newk newk newk newk newk newk newk newk newk newk newk newk newk newk newk newk newk newk newk newk newk newk newk
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Jan 15, 2020 21:53
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zoux posted:I don't see any goddamn Englishmen around so I guess it worked pretty good Check out Belize's history and location.
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Jan 15, 2020 21:59
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feedmegin posted:Check out Belize's history and location.
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Jan 15, 2020 22:21
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Nessus posted:the Englishman's malign power cannot cross salt water, so he seeks other ways These would be famous last words, if they were in English.
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Jan 15, 2020 22:26
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aphid_licker posted:That would indeed be hard on the phalanges Really a domesticated cat is a much better source of food than a feral one. Think of how silly you'd look trying to chase down a wild cat.
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Jan 15, 2020 22:44
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Cythereal posted:Yeah, I think it was pretty well understood to be America proclaiming itself to be a colonial empire with its range of satellite states. This was made abundantly clear when Bolton was using it as a justification for meddling in Venezuela during the last coup attempt.
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Jan 15, 2020 23:09
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Wait, Bolton invoked the Monroe Doctrine in 2019
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Jan 15, 2020 23:10
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Starting to think the Bolton fella might be a cock
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Jan 15, 2020 23:17
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Nenonen posted:wouldn't it be easier to hide the subs in a cave in Tibet or in the Gob desert, where nobody is looking for them Elon told me submarines are best used in Thai caves
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Jan 15, 2020 23:30
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Nessus posted:There is salt water and Mexico between us and them; the Englishman's malign power cannot cross salt water, so he seeks other ways
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Jan 16, 2020 00:18
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HEY GUNS posted:sabotage can be done without talking to anyone, at which point they tell you they're a german spy Could this be where "if you ask an undercover cop if he's a cop, he has to say yes or everything else he does is illegal" comes from???
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Jan 16, 2020 00:34
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zoux posted:Wait, Bolton invoked the Monroe Doctrine in 2019 Yeah, it ruled (from a historian's perspective.)
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Jan 16, 2020 00:41
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Trin Tragula posted:Could this be where "if you ask an undercover cop if he's a cop, he has to say yes or everything else he does is illegal" comes from???
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Jan 16, 2020 00:43
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Trin Tragula posted:Could this be where "if you ask an undercover cop if he's a cop, he has to say yes or everything else he does is illegal" comes from??? Sounds like a reference to the German saboteurs during WW2? A group of elite and highly trained saboteurs secretly landed on the East coast, whereupon they immediately ditched their weapons and went to New York to party away their operational budget. And they would've have gotten away with it except for their leader decided to turn them in to the FBI! It took a few attempts and a field trip to the cached explosives before the FBI believed him, though.
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Jan 16, 2020 01:50
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The executed everybody but the guy who turned them in. They gave him life in prison. They may have been Nazi saboteurs, but I always thought that was a bit of a dick move.
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Jan 16, 2020 01:58
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Captain von Trapp posted:The executed everybody but the guy who turned them in. They gave him life in prison. They may have been Nazi saboteurs, but I always thought that was a bit of a dick move. Super dick move! But that's war for you, I suppose.
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Jan 16, 2020 02:25
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"should have just followed the mission god drat"
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Jan 16, 2020 02:31
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Captain von Trapp posted:The executed everybody but the guy who turned them in. They gave him life in prison. They may have been Nazi saboteurs, but I always thought that was a bit of a dick move. The best part is that the FBI trumpeted it as a triumph of anti-espionage work, when in reality they didn't pay any attention until the guy literally walked into the FBI building in DC and dumped $83,000 in cash on a desk to show that he was telling the truth.
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Jan 16, 2020 03:49
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Hoover bought himself another dress for a job well done
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Jan 16, 2020 04:15
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FMguru posted:The Tuchman book is a really good, short read. It's honestly one of the top ten history books of all time. Most of her stuff is pure gold, you should read more Tuchman than you have.
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Jan 16, 2020 04:35
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mllaneza posted:It's honestly one of the top ten history books of all time. Most of her stuff is pure gold, you should read more Tuchman than you have. Her one about the gilded age (A proud tower?) is really good as well.
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Jan 16, 2020 04:39
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sullat posted:Super dick move! But that's war for you, I suppose. We made up for it with all the fun we let the German POWs have in Phoenix. https://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/news/flight-from-phoenix-6418278
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Jan 16, 2020 04:44
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IIRC, someone asked one of the WW1 regulars what they thought of Guns of August a few threads ago. The answer was something like "it's decent history, but be aware that a lot of scholarship has been done in the 50+ years since its publication so it shouldn't be taken as authoritative".
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Jan 16, 2020 04:45
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