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HEY GUNS
Oct 11, 2012

In the 17th century, the Holy Roman Empire was ravaged by the Thirty Years' War. In the middle of this chaos appeared a Japanese mercenary named Isaak. His fierce battle begins!


Milhist posts go here.

Siivola's discord is here: https://discord.gg/sT375kR

Don't be a dick, and especially don't post about non-milhist-related politics in order to be a dick.

Thread turns over every 500 pages.

admin note: Ensign Expendable has agreed to be an IK for this thread. Listen to him.

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Xiahou Dun
Jul 16, 2009
DESPITE CLAIMING TO KNOW A LOT ABOUT LANGUAGES I CAN'T COMMUNICATE WORTH A DAMN

HEY GUNS posted:

Milhist posts go here.

Siivola's discord is here: https://discord.gg/sT375kR

Don't be a dick, and especially don't post about non-milhist-related politics in order to be a dick.

Making me actually find the thread like some kind of Medieval serf.

Do I want to know about how you train war elephants, or will it just make me very, very sad? I'm assuming step one is "abuse the gently caress out of an elephant".

Koramei
Nov 11, 2011

I just pretend to be nice.


Lipstick Apathy

previous threads:

https://forums.somethingawful.com/s...hreadid=3297799
https://forums.somethingawful.com/s...hreadid=3585027
https://forums.somethingawful.com/s...hreadid=3785167
https://forums.somethingawful.com/s...hreadid=3872282

Kangxi
Nov 12, 2016

The hat is mandatory.


To quote Lord Fisher, O.M.G.

Grand Fromage
Jan 30, 2006

L-l-look at you bar-bartender, a-a pa-pathetic creature of meat and bone, un-underestimating my l-l-liver's ability to metab-meTABolize t-toxins. How can you p-poison a perfect, immortal alcohOLIC?




HEY GUNS posted:

and especially don't post about non-milhist-related politics in order to be a dick.

This rule remains in force, indeed.

FAUXTON
Jun 2, 2005

daef





Xiahou Dun posted:

Making me actually find the thread like some kind of Medieval serf.

Do I want to know about how you train war elephants, or will it just make me very, very sad? I'm assuming step one is "abuse the gently caress out of an elephant".

Iirc they didn't train them so much as coax them to the front, get them drunk as poo poo, and then get the gently caress out of the way.

HEY GUNS
Oct 11, 2012

In the 17th century, the Holy Roman Empire was ravaged by the Thirty Years' War. In the middle of this chaos appeared a Japanese mercenary named Isaak. His fierce battle begins!


FAUXTON posted:

Iirc they didn't train them so much as coax them to the front, get them drunk as poo poo, and then get the gently caress out of the way.
don't get them drunk! mr enderby says this kills them

Nessus
Dec 22, 2003

I still can't believe they cast Spock as me. Spock! Can you imagine?

Of course, he was missing a few things.



Xiahou Dun posted:

Making me actually find the thread like some kind of Medieval serf.

Do I want to know about how you train war elephants, or will it just make me very, very sad? I'm assuming step one is "abuse the gently caress out of an elephant".
I believe it was pretty much the same training used in typical taming of labor elephants along with being able to handle being around fire and shouting people and Romans. It seems that in some cases the elephants were taught to use flails attached to their tusks to great effect, in addition to being willing to trample Romans. They still train elephants for labor in southeast Asia, and I imagine the methods have not changed drastically.

Xiahou Dun
Jul 16, 2009
DESPITE CLAIMING TO KNOW A LOT ABOUT LANGUAGES I CAN'T COMMUNICATE WORTH A DAMN

Nessus posted:

I believe it was pretty much the same training used in typical taming of labor elephants along with being able to handle being around fire and shouting people and Romans. It seems that in some cases the elephants were taught to use flails attached to their tusks to great effect, in addition to being willing to trample Romans. They still train elephants for labor in southeast Asia, and I imagine the methods have not changed drastically.

Yeah step one of that is to basically break the elephant's will and abuse the poo poo out of it. Which is not cool cause, you know, elephants are super smart.

I retract the question.

Nessus
Dec 22, 2003

I still can't believe they cast Spock as me. Spock! Can you imagine?

Of course, he was missing a few things.



The question is if elephantry could have broken through the pike wall.

LLSix
Jan 20, 2010

The real power behind countless overlords

What were Qin era armies like? I am familiar with Greek phalanxes and several Roman legion evolutions but I know nothing about early Chinese armies.

Ainsley McTree
Feb 19, 2004




Nap Ghost

Xiahou Dun posted:

Yeah step one of that is to basically break the elephant's will and abuse the poo poo out of it. Which is not cool cause, you know, elephants are super smart.

I retract the question.

They're apparently very emotionally intelligent too. I went on a (photos only!) safari and the guide said that elephants basically think of humans like puppies, and if they ever kill a person by mistake (or, I think, self defense? I don't remember), they go mad with grief and have to be put down.

For some reason I haven't double checked that hosed up thought to see how much of it was just hammed up for the tourists (and I suppose you can't assume that all elephants everywhere are the same, and have been for thousands of years) but nevertheless, yeah, I don't think I want to know what goes into breaking an elephant down to the point where it's willing to kill people on command

Acebuckeye13
Nov 2, 2010

There's only one prescription for Nazism and it's 76mm HVAP


Ultra Carp


god I can't believe I've been reading these threads for eight loving years

e: RIP Admiral Snackbar

Vincent Van Goatse
Nov 8, 2006

Don't be so gloomy. After all it's not that awful. Like the fella says, in Italy for thirty years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder, and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci, and the Renaissance.




Smellrose

gently caress this thread title.

TooMuchAbstraction
Oct 14, 2012

Hubris

Fun Shoe

LLSix posted:

What were Qin era armies like? I am familiar with Greek phalanxes and several Roman legion evolutions but I know nothing about early Chinese armies.

Have you played Dynasty Warriors?

chitoryu12
Apr 23, 2014



FAUXTON posted:

Iirc they didn't train them so much as coax them to the front, get them drunk as poo poo, and then get the gently caress out of the way.

It would actually be quite hard to get an elephant drunk! As I recently learned, if you had 7% ABV alcohol (like a strong beer or weak wine) it would take about 7.1 gallons to get an elephant drunk. Presumably they wouldn't consume much hard liquor.

Vincent Van Goatse
Nov 8, 2006

Don't be so gloomy. After all it's not that awful. Like the fella says, in Italy for thirty years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder, and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci, and the Renaissance.




Smellrose

Today I received a review copy of C.J. Chivers' book about Americans in combat from the publishers and I do not understand why because I have never published a book review in my life nor do I have a blog of any kind.

Acebuckeye13
Nov 2, 2010

There's only one prescription for Nazism and it's 76mm HVAP


Ultra Carp

Vincent Van Goatse posted:

Today I received a review copy of C.J. Chivers' book about Americans in combat from the publishers and I do not understand why because I have never published a book review in my life nor do I have a blog of any kind.

Clearly the answer is to get hella drunk and review it for the thread.

HEY GUNS
Oct 11, 2012

In the 17th century, the Holy Roman Empire was ravaged by the Thirty Years' War. In the middle of this chaos appeared a Japanese mercenary named Isaak. His fierce battle begins!


Vincent Van Goatse posted:

Today I received a review copy of C.J. Chivers' book about Americans in combat from the publishers and I do not understand why because I have never published a book review in my life nor do I have a blog of any kind.
i've done a couple book reviews, it's an easy way to get your name out there in about 1000 words

Jaguars!
Jul 31, 2012




Young Urchin

What are some moments of genius generalship and why were they so smart? I've seen older sources cite Manstein's retreats on the eastern front and Lee at Chancellorville but never really seen them elaborated on.

FuturePastNow
May 19, 2014



College Slice

Nessus posted:

The question is if elephantry could have broken through the pike wall.

are we talkin' about, like, elephant-sized pikes?

SeanBeansShako
Nov 20, 2009


I can't believe we've done five threads now.

Ensign Expendable
Nov 11, 2008

Родина слышит




Pillbug

Tank destroyers still rule

Acebuckeye13
Nov 2, 2010

There's only one prescription for Nazism and it's 76mm HVAP


Ultra Carp

Ensign Expendable posted:

Tank destroyers still rule



Fuckin' love Hellcats

HEY GUNS
Oct 11, 2012

In the 17th century, the Holy Roman Empire was ravaged by the Thirty Years' War. In the middle of this chaos appeared a Japanese mercenary named Isaak. His fierce battle begins!


Jaguars! posted:

What are some moments of genius generalship and why were they so smart? I've seen older sources cite Manstein's retreats on the eastern front and Lee at Chancellorville but never really seen them elaborated on.
Wallenstein chasing Gustavus Adolphus around in the summer before the battle of Luetzen, 1632. He moved quickly but chose good ground, dug in, and didn't let himself be baited into leaving it so when Gustavus finally attacked it was at a disadvantage

would you attack that ground, after he's been camped there all summer entrenching?

Not to mention that managing to not lose after getting attacked by a force he didn't know was there at Luetzen is at least not terrible, but a couple of misconceptions led him to that point

why was this good?
* pick good subordinates, know how to work with them
* operationally offensive, tactically defensive
* you might be an emotional weirdo but if your enemy comes out of his entrenchments and demands you give battle, you don't have to say yes
* logistics 👏 wins 👏 campaigns 👏

HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 08:23 on Aug 22, 2019

Azran
Sep 3, 2012

I am the real hero here.


Acebuckeye13 posted:

Fuckin' love Hellcats

I was so happy the day I found out there's not only a Hellcat plane and a Hellcat tank, but also a Hellcat boat (PT-109).

Vincent Van Goatse
Nov 8, 2006

Don't be so gloomy. After all it's not that awful. Like the fella says, in Italy for thirty years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder, and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci, and the Renaissance.




Smellrose

Hellcat is a good name.

Squalid
Nov 4, 2008



FAUXTON posted:

Iirc they didn't train them so much as coax them to the front, get them drunk as poo poo, and then get the gently caress out of the way.

this tactic does not have a great track record

quote:

As with fighting men, Southeast Asians sometimes gave alcohol or tonic herbs to their elephant mounts, presumably to make them fearless in battle. It is unclear from the available sources just how successful this measure was in the field. The Burmese chronicles record an attack by Shans on the town of Sagaing in the midfourteenth century in which the defenders gave an elephant a fermented drink and then sent it out of the gates to wreak havoc among their besiegers. The Shans ‘fired’ and ‘pierced’ the elephant (the weapons used are not clearly indicated) and the drunken elephant wheeled around and then laid waste to the town instead, forcing the defenders to flee 89

FuturePastNow
May 19, 2014



College Slice

I wonder how many times the Romans set a hog on fire and it turned around instead of running at the enemy

Platystemon
Feb 13, 2012



quote:

I am seriously informed by a Spanish gentleman who resided for many years in Mexico and was an officer in Maximilian's army, that while the wolves would feed upon the dead bodies of the French that lay all night upon the battlefield, they never touched the bodies of the Mexicans, because the flesh was completely impregnated with chile. Which, if true, may be thought to show that wolves do not object to a diet seasoned with garlic.

https://books.google.com/books?id=W...epage&q&f=false

PittTheElder
Feb 13, 2012

Yes, it's like a lava lamp.



Quoting from the last thread:

Acebuckeye13 posted:

Harry Turtledove's Timeline 191 books have something roughly akin to that, where the independent Confederacy invades the North and stalls out in a Stalingrad-like fight through Pittsburgh. Also they're nazis and Abraham Lincoln founded the socialist party.

those books were weird.

ninjahedgehog
Feb 17, 2011

It's time to kick the tires and light the fires, Big Bird.


Vincent Van Goatse posted:

Hellcat is a good name.

Hell yeah it is. Avenger and Corsair and Warhawk are good names too, whoever was in charge of naming 1940s-era American planes did a very good job at it

FrangibleCover
Jan 23, 2018

Nothing going on in my quiet corner of the Pacific.

This is the life. I'm just lying here in my hammock in Townsville, sipping a G&T.

ninjahedgehog posted:

Hell yeah it is. Avenger and Corsair and Warhawk are good names too, whoever was in charge of naming 1940s-era American planes did a very good job at it

Meanwhile in the UK the Wildcat became the Martlet, the Hellcat became the Gannet, the Avenger became the Tarpon, the Vindicator became the Chesapeake, the Havoc became the Boston and the Warhawk became the Kittyhawk.

We did good names, but we didn't do them for Americans.

HEY GUNS
Oct 11, 2012

In the 17th century, the Holy Roman Empire was ravaged by the Thirty Years' War. In the middle of this chaos appeared a Japanese mercenary named Isaak. His fierce battle begins!


FrangibleCover posted:

Meanwhile in the UK the Wildcat became the Martlet, the Hellcat became the Gannet, the Avenger became the Tarpon, the Vindicator became the Chesapeake, the Havoc became the Boston and the Warhawk became the Kittyhawk.

We did good names, but we didn't do them for Americans.
kittyhawk is a nice tip of the hat to american aviation, thank you

Milo and POTUS
Sep 3, 2017

I will not shut up about the Mighty Morphin Power Rangers. I talk about them all the time and work them into every conversation I have. I built a shrine in my room for the yellow one who died because sadly no one noticed because she died around 9/11. Wanna see it?



did you quote that last thread or was it somewhere else? Becuase I've definitely seen it within the last 2 days or so

Don Gato
Apr 28, 2013

Actually a bipedal cat.

Grimey Drawer

Jaguars! posted:

What are some moments of genius generalship and why were they so smart? I've seen older sources cite Manstein's retreats on the eastern front and Lee at Chancellorville but never really seen them elaborated on.
Napoleon proving that his reputation for being a good general being more than just propaganda, the popular example being the Battle of Austerlitz, 1805. He purposely weakened his right flank in order to lure the Allies into attacking, feigning weakness in peace negotiations to try and goad them into a battle, even going so far as to have his right flank abandon a key defensive position to make them look weaker. Then, once the Allies took the bait and attacked his flank with overwhelming force, he crushes the weakened Allied center and then sweeps the flanks, resulting in a French victory and the end of the Third Coalition.

(oversimplified) this works because:
1. Since he chose the time and place of a battle, it meant that the fight started on his terms
2. The other French field marshals are all extremely competent and take advantage of opportunities as they are made available
3. Napoleon has some luck on his side, a morning fog happens to last just long enough that it covers the attack on the Allied center, but not so long that it prevents the French from communicating with each other.
4. The Allies press the attack instead of playing it more cautiously, out of the false belief that Napoleon's position is much weaker than it actually is.

Platystemon
Feb 13, 2012



Milo and POTUS posted:

did you quote that last thread or was it somewhere else? Becuase I've definitely seen it within the last 2 days or so

I was doing research on chiles for for the Roman/ancient thread, because someone asked about them there after bad history popped up in C‐SPAM (which has its own ancient history thread now).

That quotation, while amusing, isn’t Roman or ancient. It is milhist‐relevant but I didn’t want to load the last page of that thread and lose my place in the backlog.

So I posted it PYF’s Historical Fun Facts thread.

Then this thread rebooted so I figured I might as well post it here.

BalloonFish
Jun 30, 2013



Grimey Drawer

FrangibleCover posted:

Meanwhile in the UK the Wildcat became the Martlet, the Hellcat became the Gannet, the Avenger became the Tarpon, the Vindicator became the Chesapeake, the Havoc became the Boston and the Warhawk became the Kittyhawk.

We did good names, but we didn't do them for Americans.

HEY GUNS posted:

kittyhawk is a nice tip of the hat to american aviation, thank you

Curtiss originally just called the P-40 the Model 81 Hawk - all their single-seat fighters since the early 20s had used the Hawk name. The P-36 was the Model 75 Hawk.

In RAF service the Hawk 75 became the Mohawk and the Hawk 81 (equivalent to the P-40B and P-40C) became the Tomahawk, both of which are excellent war-like punning names.

The Brits preemptively ordered several hundred of Curtiss' proposed replacement for the Hawk 81, the Hawk 86 (or XP-46 in USAAF-speak) which was smaller and more heavily-armed and armoured reflecting combat experience with the P-36 and P-40 against the Bf109 early in the war. The RAF allocated the name Kittyhawk to the new model. Unfortunately the Hawk 86 proved to be no improvement over the Hawk 81/P-40/Tomahawk, mostly due to the added weight of the guns (two .50s and eight .30s) and armour plate combined with ongoing issues with getting the Allison engine to put out decent power at the high altitudes found in European air combat without resorting to a bulky, expensive, unreliable and scarce turbocharger.

Instead Curtiss adapted some of the aerodynamic improvements from the XP-46 into the P-40 airframe, changed the reduction gear on the Allison engine to a spur drive so it wouldn't lunch itself the moment it saw more than 1200hp and slapped six .50s in the wings to create the Hawk 87. This was taken up by the RAF and the USAAF. The former used the Kittyhawk name as intended for the all-new replacement while the latter knew it as the P-40E. Curtiss, partly to cover up their flub with the XP-46 and partly because the Hawk 87 was the first Hawk model to be used by the USA in combat named it the Warhawk in early 1942 for promotional purposes. The name stuck, came to refer to the entire P-40 family as a whole and by 1944 the RAF had given up with the Kittyhawk name and just called the final models the Warhawk, just as the navy stopped calling their American fighters Martlets and Gannets and so on.

FAUXTON
Jun 2, 2005

daef





FrangibleCover posted:

Meanwhile in the UK the Wildcat became the Martlet, the Hellcat became the Gannet, the Avenger became the Tarpon, the Vindicator became the Chesapeake, the Havoc became the Boston and the Warhawk became the Kittyhawk.

We did good names, but we didn't do them for Americans.

Good lord those are indeed not great names (except Kittyhawk, that's okay).

Was it just one jerk on some procurement board being like "okay I got a couple obscure birds, a fish, and *throws fistful of darts at a map of the Atlantic coast of the US* these places" or was this a committee thing?

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BalloonFish
Jun 30, 2013



Grimey Drawer

FAUXTON posted:

Good lord those are indeed not great names (except Kittyhawk, that's okay).

Was it just one jerk on some procurement board being like "okay I got a couple obscure birds, a fish, and *throws fistful of darts at a map of the Atlantic coast of the US* these places" or was this a committee thing?

It was to make the Lend-Lease aircraft fit the official naming scheme.

Fighters had generally aggressive/macho names but would be named by the manufacturer. So the Curtiss needed a name, and the Air Ministry came up with Tomahawk as a play on the manufacturer's own model name.

Purpose-built naval fighters were named after seabirds (real or mythical) - Skua, Roc, Martlet Gannet. Navalised versions of land fighters used the normal name with 'Sea' in front - Sea Gladiator, Sea Hurricane etc.

Torpedo bombers were named after game fish- Swordfish, Albacore, Barracuda, Tarpon.

Land-based bombers were named after British towns (Lancaster, Stirling, Halifax) and it was decided to name American types after similarly mid-tier US cities (Boston, Baltimore, Chesapeake (?)).

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