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codo27 posted:Oh trust me, I'm well aware of all the details like that This is all great but it's a lot of words to argue an absolute answer for something that is explicitly textually ambiguous, which some people just can't deal with.
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Jan 21, 2020 22:05
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Bip Roberts posted:This is all great but it's a lot of words to argue an absolute answer for something that is explicitly textually ambiguous, which some people just can't deal with. Especially the folks who watched the show for the bodycount and were upset because we didn't get the show's version of the Colombo wars.
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Jan 21, 2020 22:09
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I think the most remarkable thing about the way they wrote the NY-NJ gang war was that when it all came down to it, that "pygmy thing" in Jersey ended up being the Gang that Couldn't Shoot Straight. Tony gets a tip from Agent Harris that it's about to go down, and decides to act first, but amazingly they bungle it. They end up killing Phil's goomar's father, and his goomar, and later when Corky is asked by one of the hitmen if Phil spoke Ukranian, he's like "uhh, what?" I think he later asks Patsy if Phil spoke Ukranian, and even Patsy fails to put two and two together. Later they do figure out what happened, but then are unable to effectively get the word out to everyone to watch their asses, resulting in Bobby's death and Silvio's near-death. They do get Phil in the end, but only because once again Agent Harris helps them out. I guess we couldn't really have expected the small "glorified crew" in Jersey to acquit themselves well against what is basically one of the five NY Families in the world of the show, but man, it was a comedy of errors.
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Jan 21, 2020 22:51
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What I'm surprised about mostly is how endeared I was towards Harris. Weird how we ourselves find ourselves pulling for the cruel gangsters, Harris is a reflection of the viewers I believe, in a way. We're gonna win this!
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Jan 21, 2020 23:23
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Season 6, Episode 6 - Live Free or DieRosalie Aprile posted:She's one of us. Now it's like she's one of them. Dress in pajamas and a robe, Tony Soprano settles happily down in a deckchair by his pool to read a yachting magazine. But the peace he only so recently found in this location after his return from hospital has already turned sour. Now the fresh breeze is irritating, the rattling of a nearby air-conditioning unit (or pool filtration?) makes him snap and toss the loose lid away. He can't relax, that "great wind" that carried him across the sky isn't doing anything anymore to prevent him from going about in pity for himself. Somebody with more reason than Tony to be ill-at-ease is Vito Spatafore. He's gone to ground at his goomar's home, a lovely place on the shore that presumably he forks out the cash for. She wants him to join her outside sunbathing but he complains the UV index is too high, which sets her off. She's pissed they don't do anything together, including going out or even eating together. More than that though, they also don't do the one thing a goomar can usually expect from the selfish, greedy, cheating assholes they find themselves attached to: they don't have sex. She complains it has been over a year since they last hosed (not made love, not had sex, "hosed") and Vito complains back that he's told her multiple times that with his recent weight-loss his blood sugar has dampened his sex drive. She storms out in a huff, leaving him alone which of course is what he really wants. She is, to put it crudely, an extra beard. Vito is gay but married with children, hardly the first man to do so while hiding his natural sexuality, but with an added twist. He's a mobster, and the toxic and bullshit version of what they call masculinity demands he can't be anything but straight, AND that he must have a goomar. So while he genuinely seems to love his wife even if he doesn't desire her sexually, his goomar is simply a mask, a requirement of his job. An expensive one it seems, going by just how nice that place is.   Outside Satriale's, Christopher meets with Tony who informs him how things are progressing with the hit on Rusty Millio. As he told Chris at the wedding, he's reached out to Naples to have somebody unconnected from the DiMeo Family pull it off. Even now he's careful, never mentioning Annalisa by name (just "she") and referring to the hitmen as tailors coming to "fit a suit", and Christopher will hook them up with a third party to get them "scissors". More importantly than that though is Christopher's sudden enthusiasm for the idea. After calling it a pussy-rear end move and recommending they control it all themselves, he's now completely onboard with Tony's plan and quick to tell him so. Tony is amused but pleased, though it's clear he still thinks this should have never been an issue in the first place. But the point is that his plan worked, by putting a beating on Perry he's reestablished himself as not "weak" in the eyes of his Captains and there is no more of the pushing and second-guessing he was noticing (both real and imagined). Benny, Murmur and Perry step out of Satriale's and greet Christopher. Tony takes Perry, his face still all bruised up from the beating he took, aside to have a quiet word. He wants to talk about the other day, and Perry is quick to assure him he's fine and he only needed a couple of stitches. Managing to apologize without apologizing, Tony chuckles and notes "my loving temper" like the beating was something completely out of his control, then starts peeling off some cash for Perry who puts up a half-hearted effort to decline before taking it. With the money in his pocket, he notes that he still doesn't recall slamming the fridge door... but also that both Carlo AND his own father told him he was completely out of line in raising his fists to Tony. Tony, the unbelievable son of a bitch, actually has the gall to be "forgiving", patronizingly telling Perry that the important thing is that he learned his lesson and now knows not to do it again. He takes Perry back to join the others, all of them friends again, and in Tony's own mind the process has probably already started (or may have already crystallized) where he's convinced himself that Perry really was solely responsible for taking the beating. Later at an AA meeting, Christopher and Murmur are bored out of their minds listening to another addict tell the story of how terrible drugs and alcohol made her life. They step outside for a cigarette, followed by another addict who has recognized them. He's Kevin Mucci from Yonkers, a cousin of Sal Iacuzzo, attending the same meeting by pure chance but taking the opportunity to share (and revel in) a juicy bit of gossip he recently picked up. He saw Sal recently, who told him all about meeting Vito in the "fag bar" dancing with another guy. Christopher laughs at the notion, but shortly after he's deadly serious as he strides into the Bada Bing with Murmur in tow to spread the news even further. Tony is sitting with Silvio, Paulie, Carlo and Patsy cracking jokes when he arrives, and before he has a chance to soften the blow or ease them into it, Murmur blurts out gleefully that "Vito Spatafore's an rear end-muncher!" They're all shocked, not at Vito (yet) but at the fact Murmur has made such an allegation. Seeing their immediate reactions, both Christopher and Murmur are quick to note it is probably bullshit, until Carlo hears Sal's name and notes that he knows him. Christopher gives out what information he has, with Murmur again excitedly adding in all kinds of unnecessary details about what Vito was wearing. Silvio and Paulie don't believe it, Vito is married AND has a goomar, and at first Tony seems more amused... until the full ramifications of what he is hearing really sink in at last. Getting serious, he tells them they'll take it to the back, and Murmur can't resist one last pun which causes Tony to made it VERY clear that he's not a part of this conversation and isn't welcome. That knocks the grin of Murmur's face quickly, as he remembers perhaps belatedly that this is the Boss and his Captains and he's at best an Associate, and the guy he is talking poo poo about is ALSO a Captain.   In the back, Paulie is outraged at the fact that anybody is out there spreading rumors, but Carlo backs up Sal again as somebody trustworthy. Christopher declares that figured it out a long time ago, amusing Tony who asks him to explain exactly when and how he knew, and all Christopher can offer is that he never said it but he knew (more on this later). Tony quickly brings them all back into line, reminding everybody that they can't rush into judgment, choosing his words poorly when he notes it's possible Sal has a hard-on for Vito. Paulie remains in defense of Vito, reminding them all he has a wife and kids, but the others note that means nothing: Elton John was married, and Silvio thinks Rock Hudson might have been as well (he was). But the allegation is out there now, so it has to be addressed, and Tony demands they get Vito on the phone. As Patsy makes the call, Silvio remembers the odd call he got at 3 in the morning, and Christopher actually gets it right when he says he was probably fishing to figure out if his secret was out. It doesn't help that Patsy reports the call went straight to voice-mail, and now even Paulie is starting to worry. Patsy, surprisingly, points out the first actually logical and modern thing of the entire conversation... he doesn't actually give a poo poo if Vito is gay or not. Carlo does though, he finds the notion disgusting, threatening to drag Vito behind his car if it turns out to be true. Tony cuts that right off, and gets especially harsh when Paulie starts freaking out that Vito's weight loss might be down to Aids. They're running wild with their imaginations now, and the only saving grace for Tony is that Silvio is level-headed enough to send Patsy to talk to one of the girls working the bar after remembering she is friends with Vito's goomar. The next day at the South Bronx Law Center, Meadow listens with horror to a Muslim family's story about their son being hauled out of his school by the FBI four days ago and the complete lack of communication they've had since. It's the worst but not the first trouble they've faced, their daughter was refused access to the ice skating rink unless she removed her head-scarf for being a "safety concern". They can't afford a lawyer so they've come to the law center for help, and Meadow sits there absorbing it all, taking way an understanding of the often horrible and demeaning and nasty things the Government and Law Enforcement can and has (and sadly, will) do. At home she discusses this with Carmela, getting the occassional word of support from Finn while a disinterested AJ eats breakfast. Tony walks in and immediately cracks a joke about how the "poor" victim she is talking about is probably a crack whore wanting their kid back for the welfare payments. Meadow is disgusted, and points out that the family in question actually fits in with all the usual Conservative talking points about what immigrants SHOULD be. They fled the Taliban (so not terrorists), they came in legally (so no sneaking in) and worked the visa system (no queue jumping) the way they're meant to, and they're still getting mistreated. Tony, of course, has no sympathy for the plight of the downtrodden even when they do things "the right way", and mockingly plays a fake violin. Meadow is revolted, while Carmela - always so quick to believe Law Enforcement is out to unfairly get at her family - claims the FBI wouldn't have taken the kid away if there wasn't a reason. When Meadow complains that 9/11 is used as an endless excuse by the likes of President Bush to get away with eroding freedoms, Carmela surprises nobody by revealing that - of course - she voted for Bush. Meadow, finding no support from anybody but a quiet Finn, leaves the room upset, Tony calling after her that she needs to chill out. This was a subject of conversation around many breakfast tables during this period I'm sure. It stands out here since Tony and Carmela have endlessly ranted and raved in the past about the Government and the FBI being petty, racist (against Italians) and with a grudge against people who don't deserve their ill treatment. When faced with an actual, legitimate representation of exactly the kind of thing they've always claimed, OF COURSE they stick up for the Government/FBI. Because to them (and far too many Americans at the time, and perhaps even now), it didn't matter how legally or properly they came into the country: Muslims were THE OTHER and to be feared and distrusted, and you had to support the Government and in particular the President no matter what they did because 9/11 (and also so as not to hurt the troops!). The lack of empathy by Tony and Carmela is not a surprise, and neither is their hypocrisy.   But this isn't the end of it. In the back of Satriale's, Christopher is doing bicep curls when Tony arrives. He's been thinking about the conversation with Meadow, about how the FBI treated those Muslims, about the lack of proper legal procedures etc, and he's come to the only conclusion possible... maybe the Muslims he knows are also terrorists! Oh Tony. He asks Christopher about Ahmed and Muhammad (calling them "Fazool" because he can't remember even one of their names), asking if he thinks there is any chance they're "Al-Qaedas, something like that"? Christopher takes a moment to think and admits it did cross his mind at one point but he's positive they're not. While they do have an interest in guns, Ahmed told him he thought the Muslim protestors complaining about the Danish cartoons were in the wrong. Mohammad's brother is a Government interrogator in Lebanon (or Syria!) AND he and his girlfriend have a dog! Tony isn't quite sure what to make of all this, everything Christopher has told him (based on broad stereotypes of what makes a Fundamentalist) indicates these guys aren't religious fanatics, but on the other hand... they are Muslim which negates all that and automatically makes them terrorists, right? Still unsure, he decides to have a coffee, his daughter's impassioned push for him to recognize the plight of a religious minority only making him sink deeper into his entrenched, racist views. Vito returns to his goomar's after doing a grocery run. Benny, Dante and Terry Doria have been watching and waiting for this, and come striding up all smiles and friendship, calling out to him and saying Tony's been looking for him. Quickly covering his surprise and concern, Vito pretends confusion, why is Tony looking for him? They remind him he hasn't answered his phone for days and he jumps on that as an excuse, complaining like there's something wrong with it without specifying what, promising he'll call Tony back soon. Still all smiles, Benny tells him in no uncertain terms that it will be "better" if he just goes straight in. Still keeping his cool, hiding his fear, Benny nods and agrees, climbing into his car as he tells them he'll follow them in their car. There is enough uncertainty around the allegations that they allow this, when normally they'd insist (all smiles of course) that they'd drive him. But that one moment is all he needs. The second he is in his car he throws it into gear and speeds out of the driveway, right past him. They yell and roar at him and throw a rock after him, but Benny is laughing... because this is as good as a confession to him. Why would Vito run unless he had something to hide? Now they "know", the rumors are true, Vito is gay and despite it being 2006 that is enough to spell death for him. Later that night, Christopher meets "the third party" in the rain. It's Corky Caporale, an Associate but nothing higher than that, chosen for two reasons. One is that he speaks Italian. The second is that he's a heroin addict and obviously jonesing, and rather than paying him cash Christopher is able to just pass over a bag of heroin and the promise of more to come if he supplies the "tailors" with a couple of guns and directions on how to get to Rusty's. It might seem dangerous using a heroin addict as the middle man, but Christopher never uses Rusty's name directly and Corky would probably not make for much of a witness. Corky shoves the heroin in his pocket and then, trying to calm himself, cracks a joke about hearing the rumors about Vito. Christopher instantly shuts that down, insisting it was just a joke that got out of hand and warning Corky that this isn't just a man's reputation but a Captain's! Corky is apologetic, especially when Christopher tells him that some guys went to see him and found him at his goomar's... that means the rumor was bullshit, right? Except Christopher can't resist and bursts out laughing, admitting that Vito immediately ran. He warns Corky not to let anybody know he was the one to tell him, but even if no names are mentioned, that rumor is going to keep spreading. Before nobody was really sure if Vito was gay, him running is just going to add fuel to the fire.   Vito returns home, nervous as he gets information from the babysitter. His wife Marie is visiting with her mother in the hospital and the kids are asleep, meaning for now he has the house to himself (the sitter is happily watching television). He slips into the garage and pries open cans of "paint", pulling out giant rolls of cash and dumping them into a travel bag. But it isn't just money he takes, a framed photo of both the children and he and Marie joins the money before he slips into the kids' bedrooms and gives them both a kiss farewell. It's easy to forget, but the fact Vito is gay in no way discounts or dilutes the fact he actually loves his family, including Marie. She's not just a convenience for him to hide his true sexuality, his feelings for her were genuine... just not sexual. He drives out into the rainy night and out of Jersey, his diet forgotten as he scoffs chicken wings. His phone rings, it's Phil Leotardo calling, which is NOT a call he wants to take. The phone keeps ringing though, so he opens the window and throws it out into the night. He continues on, the incessant ringing gone now, one less string tying him back to Jersey. After a long time driving, he's reached New Hampshire when he's startled by a sudden bang against the car. He pulls up, but happily it's not a person he's hit, just a downed tree branch from the storm. It's caught up in his tire though and the car can't go any further, and with a shout of rage he pulls on a poncho and wheels his luggage to the nearest small town, Dartford. There he finds a bed and breakfast with a vacancy sign, and knocks on the door. The woman who answers is pleasant but surprised, she had no reservations and they don't usually get walk-ins, but she invites him in. She starts to give him the tour but he cuts her off to say he just wants to go to his room. She accepts this without pause, telling him it'll be $140 for the night and more than happy to take cash when he offers it... but not now, she insists he can take care of the bill in the morning. Perhaps surprised at her politeness, or just aware that it won't make do to be abusive to the one person who can put him up for the night, he quasi-apologizes by explaining he's exhausted and explaining his car broke down. It pays dividends, as she tells him her step-son runs a towing service and she can organize for his car to be dropped off at the Mobil in the morning. Grateful and surprised, he tells her where to find it and then tries to peel off cash for a tip, but she demurs and simply gives him the keys and directions to his room. Not used to such friendly service without any expectation of cash, he goes to the room and with great relief clambers onto the bed... though not before tucking a gun beneath the pillow and pulling out the picture of his kids. The next morning, as Vito wakes in a strange place in a different state, in New Jersey Carmela is taking in another home that also feels like a dream. Hers is a nightmare though, her spec house that she invested so much hope (and Tony's money) into in exchange for her dignity is now an empty shell. Literally, as all that remains is the framing Hugh had put up. Materials that had been stored there are all gone, including those that were locked away in a shed specifically to prevent theft. Angry, she drives around to Hugh and Mary's home, where her father - hosing down the driveway - clearly knows what is coming. He tries to pretend he has no idea what she is talking about when she tells him that the place has been picked clean, but the moment she accuses him he lets all pretence slide and tries to turn it back on her, complaining she left it all there to rot. She's furious, her husband was on his deathbed! He rolls his eyes like this is being over-dramatic (it isn't!) and accuses him of picking through it like a vulture, and he hits right back with the fact she still hasn't sorted out the permits with the building department. They scream at each other, her yelling it was his fault the permits were declined, him complaining she is a broken record. Mary emerges in her robe to innocently ask Carmela if she's seen in bundt pan and is alarmed when Carmela storms off in a rage. She calls after her but Hugh, who to be frank is in the wrong on this one, yells at her to let their daughter go, he's tired of a lifetime of her bullshit.   Vito enters a diner and asks for a coffee from the tall, well-built man working the counter. As it is being brewed, he steps back out to the phone booth outside and asks the Operator to find him the number for an Angelo or Roberta Di Piazza, or even Roberta Spatafore. It's his cousin, who lives in New Hampshire, but he doesn't know WHERE in New Hampshire she lives and the Operator can't help without more specific information. He returns to the diner, where the cook suggests he try the "JohnnyCakes", a New England style pancake made with white cornmeal. Vito agrees, telling the cook he's from Scottsdale, Arizona when asked. As he waits for the JohnnyCakes, he notices two men enter who are greeted warmly by another couple and asked how they fared in the storm. Vito drinks in this scene with fascination, the two men are clearly a couple and also clearly absolutely open about this fact. The other couple are straight but are in no way put off by the homosexual pair. The cook asks the gay couple if they want the "usual" and they smile at each other and admit that they're boring, but clearly in a very satisfied and happy way. Again, none of this is in any way unusual. It's 2006, not 1956, but Vito comes from a different world. One of a fictional and bullshit concept of "masculinity", where Vito not only felt he HAD to have a wife AND a goomar but also felt it necessary to flirt with the likes of Adriana La Cerva to really hammer home how totally straight and absolutely not gay he was. Here in the actual modern world, none of that is an issue, and as he dishes into the JohnnyCakes he takes the opportunity to get a good look at the cook, who is exactly Vito's type (good looking!). But while Vito is having a look at what could be, Silvio is in the middle of what is. He's come to visit Marie at the home, where despite both of them putting on smiling faces and being polite, she can clearly tell that something isn't right. Vito had told her he'd gone to Vegas, and she was expecting him back today... but he's not here, and Silvio has shown up with tickets to Blood, Sweat and Tears and is asking her awkward questions about how things are "in the romance department" between them. She doesn't want to talk to Silvio about that and he doesn't press the issue, other than to say he's worried about Vito being distracted and taking these long absences. She points out she knows all about his goomar, but it is interesting to ponder what she's REALLY thinking in this moment. Does she know or at least suspect he's gay? Does she fear that maybe he has flipped to the FBI or that at least Silvio suspects he has? Silvio leaves, and outside Tony is waiting in the car. Silvio has picked up at least one thing from this awkward meeting though, he's around enough women to know when one isn't having sex, and he thinks this is the case with Marie (or maybe he's just primed to think that because of the rumors?). As they drive away, Tony tries Vito's phone again and this time gets an answer... from a guy working road crew who overhears it ringing. Tony immediately gets on this guy's bad side by calling him an rear end in a top hat and demanding he put Vito on. The roadworker gets angry backer and calls Tony a human being when he asks if he's sucking Vito's dick, and they go back and forth yelling at each other until the worker FINALLY explains he found the phone on the side of the road. That gives Tony pause, and the worker tells him to hang on... and tosses the phone in front of the steamroller laying down the fresh road surface, crushing the phone in the process. Tony yells into the silence of the broken connection, having learned nothing other than the fact that Vito has tossed his phone. At Vesuvio's, Carmela is leading a lunch meeting with Rosalie and Gabriella discussing the donations for the upcoming silent auction they're holding for charity. Angie arrives late and apologetic, but not in the usual cringing way she has been so often in the past. Now she's actively complaining about sales reps holding her up, and when Artie starts to hand out the menus she openly questions Carmela's decision to make the charity function a silent auction AGAIN!? As Artie starts to happily lay out what he thinks are the gems on the menu, Angie "apologizes" again since she needs to get back soon, and asks if they can just get Artie to go ahead and cook them whatever he wants. Abruptly the menus are handed back, a dazed Artie is sent on his way, and Gabriella takes the moment to complain about how Artie has no sense of timing and is always interrupting the middle of conversations. Carmela tries to defend the silent auction option, pointing out that people enjoy it, but Angie retorts without malice that the point is to raise money so a live auctioneer AND booze will get people going at it trying to one-up each other. Rosalie and Gabriella laugh happily at the idea and Carmela forces a little smile which turns into a gape of surprise when Angie notes that she'll be donating $2000 worth of bodywork and/or paint. Rosalie and Gabriella are impressed while Carmela is startled, and Gabriella shifts into gossip mode to ask if they all heard about Vito and Marie separating. Angie gets a sudden phone-call and starts angrily snapping instructions at the hapless person on the other end, while Artie shows his amazingly bad sense of timing by springing to the table again to show off the fish he is cooking, all while Carmela desperately tries to find out more about this shock news: they were just at the wedding! It's all chaos and she's lost complete control of the situation, the Queen Bee of the New Jersey (Mafia) social scene feeling completely out of touch with everything going on AND watching a woman she once pitied accomplishing everything she once wished for herself.  
Jerusalem fucked around with this message at 12:01 on Jan 22, 2020 |
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Jan 22, 2020 11:58
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Tony attends therapy where he discusses the number one subject on his mind recently: Vito being gay. Melfi is surprised, he had no idea? Tony hesitates and then takes a leaf out of Christopher's book by declaring that he actually had it figured out the whole time! Let's digress briefly on this. Christopher said it first, and now Tony does too. They knew the whole time, they both insist, even if they never said anything they just somehow knew. Why did both of them say this? Why the insistence that somebody couldn't be gay without them somehow knowing? I'd argue because of what NOT knowing ultimately would bring them to conclude: that anybody can be gay, and that being gay has nothing to do with whether you can be a mobster or not. In the toxic, hyper-masculine bullshit world they occupy, this is unthinkable. To be gay is to be OTHER (almost as bad as being Muslim!), and if the OTHER is indistinguishable from yourselves then what does that say? The ultimate conclusion is either that being gay doesn't matter (it doesn't) or that maybe there's something wrong and unmasculine about themselves that they couldn't see it when it was right in front of them. Vito was a great earner, ambitious, as prone to temper tantrums as all of them, a willing killer and an effective criminal. He's also gay. How can he be one and the other? In the mindset of the likes of Christopher and Tony, he can't, they MUST have known all along. Because anything else means the whole house of cards of their bullshit POV on what being a "real man" is falls apart. Getting back to the session, Tony willingly calls Vito a friend and more importantly a great earner. Ignoring for now what Carmela warned him about, he talks highly of how Vito helped Carmela through a tough financial time when Tony was in the coma. None of this adds up to Melfi though, who starts picking at not just the loose threads in this story but others he has told her. He's bragged through implication of being worth millions of dollars... did Carmela really NEED the money Vito got to her? Tony, caught trying to remember what he's said and when (it's easier if you just tell the truth, then you don't need to remember the lie) gets grumpy and complains this isn't the issue. That's fine, but she wants HIM to tell her what the issue actually is then. Agape, Tony explains: Vito's "a faaaag!". He seems completely bewildered when she nonchalantly asks so what? Sneering, amused now, he mocks her for probably having the mindset that it's "not their fault" for being gay, before butchering (not for the last time) the Ojibwe saying by declaring that he thinks gay people go about in pity for themselves. Melfi counters that she's sure gay people don't see being gay as a "fault", but Tony declares that where he comes from (the same place as Vito!) it is unacceptable. He admits that he thinks being gay is disgusting, that men kissing each other and holding hands is revolting, complaining that every television show rubs your nose in it and that disgusts him too.... well maybe not that lesbian show. Distracted by the thoughts of lesbians, he ponders whether Jennifer Beals is "a dyke" before dragging himself back to the Vito issue. Offering at least some willingness to move, he agrees that maybe if gay people want to be gay in their own homes that's okay, but is quick to remind Melfi that he - the murdering, philandering criminal - is a strict Catholic! He agrees with Senator "Sanitorium" that acceptance of homosexuals will lead to acceptance of bestiality (!). But Melfi can sense that beneath the bluster, Tony really isn't feeling the vehemence towards Vito that he wants her to think he is feeling, or that he thinks he SHOULD be feeling. He notes that the people working beneath him want Vito gone (he stumbles over his words and says they want head), that the old union workers/contractors won't want to work with him etc. But he's talking about what others want, not what HE wants, and Melfi decides to explore a little more of his supposed hatred of homosexuality and see just how far it really goes or if it even exists at all. So she asks him about prison time, about people in his "business" who spend a long time in jail and whether they really forego sexual contact? Tony begrudgingly explains you get a pass for that since there are no women around and what else are you gonna do? You could be there for 5-10 years! As another aside, it's endlessly fascinating to me the mindset these guys have and how it excuses so many different actions. In this case, it's more important for a "man" to have sexual urges than it is to not be gay. The irony being that anybody who bangs other dudes in prison would probably just be considered a virile (and heterosexual) man but anybody who kept control for that long would somehow be suspect (homosexual?) for not having the "masculine" urge to gently caress. Suddenly alarmed, Tony assures her his own incarceration was too short for him to need to resort to "any anal you know", and ignores Melfi's next question about Vito to insist again he's telling the truth and accusing her of thinking he's lying. She points out she has given him ZERO indication of this, any questioning of his heterosexuality is being made by HIM, not her. Confronted with his, unable to hide behind justifications or stereotypes or excuses anymore, he sighs and admits that something inside of him tells him that he shouldn't give the slightest gently caress one way or the other whether Vito is straight or gay. It means nothing, it changes nothing, if anything he should be happy for the guy. He had a second chance, why shouldn't Vito?   The remarkable thing about this therapy session (and perhaps the most realistic) is how Melfi largely lets Tony come around to his conclusion on his own. Yes she pokes and she prods, but she largely gives him the freedom to work through it all and argue himself around to the way he really felt all along. But while it's good work, Tony feels little relief at having come to his conclusion about Vito. After all, while his new outlook post-hospital stay is supposedly a healthier one, he acknowledges that real life has a way of getting in the way of your efforts to be a better human being. Your family, your business, your house, your kids, they all chip away at your optimistic new outlook. Melfi smiles, understanding the mindset well enough, but perhaps not fully grasping that this is also Tony's way of excusing why he has failed to keep up with his "every day is a gift" proclamation to Janice. Because there'll always be an excuse, and that same willingness to find something else to blame is why his decision on Vito is doomed... because there'll always be something chipping away at him that he can use as a reason for why he - the noble and enlightened soul - had no choice but to do something horrible. That night Tony joins Carmela in the bedroom as she works on the silent auction (still silent). She admits reluctantly that she's held off on asking him during his recovery but she still needs the building inspector to be spoken to about her spec house. Having forgotten completely about the one thing that got him back into his marriage, he nods and assures her he'll deal with it. She invites him into the bed and he begs off, saying he doesn't think his scar is well enough healed for sex yet and he is worried he pulled something the last time they tried. She just smiles and shows him what she was calling him over for, she'd been given a cream to massage into the scar to try and bring the redness down and help it heal without leaving too visible a mark. He hopes into the bed and pulls his undershirt up, enjoying it as she tends him to him. Feeling loving and warm, he admits that she was right all along about Junior, that he should have cut him out of his life and he brought this pain on himself. Carmela warns him not to ever think that way, it wasn't his fault that Junior rewarded his kindness with violence, and she takes no pleasure in having been right. He thanks her for not ever saying,"I told you so", and then in a remarkable and rare act of openness he relates to her something Melfi told him in therapy. That his continued support and assistance to Junior was his own way of trying to prove he was a good person, because if he was a good person then his mother would have had to have loved him. Wisely, Carmela doesn't contradict or push further, she just lets Tony's gigantic admission of vulnerability clear a weight from his shoulders while she stares down at him with the unconditional love and support that his mother didn't give him. It is an unexpectedly tender and truly beautiful moment between a man and his wife. This is thrown into sharp contrast the next day when Rosalie joins Carmela at the house and the subject of Vito and Marie's "separation" comes up, or rather the fact that Vito is gay. It seems Tony shared this with Carmela too, and she's surprised that Rosalie knows since Tony swore her to secrecy and she has actually kept it to herself. Rosalie won't say who told her, and they ponder whether Marie knew and perhaps had an arrangement with him, or if she was in the dark too. She still can't quite believe it was Vito, he was the last person she would suspect, words she immediately regrets when Meadow enters the room and catches the scent of juicy gossip. They try to change the subject, complimenting Meadow's nice suit and the fact she is working two jobs: one interning a high profile law firm and the other volunteering at a legal center. But Meadow won't let them shake it, asking what about Vito, laughing she might know what the issue is when they diplomatically note he and Marie are having marital issues. Now it is Carmela who wants to know what she knows, and when Meadow won't give she blinks first, admitting that there is a possibility that Vito might be.... gay! "Finn saw him giving some guy a blowjob," Meadow admits calmly, Rosalie physically recoiling in shock. Carmela is agape as Meadow tells them what Finn saw and admits that he remains freaked out about it to this day, casually adding in that Vito threatened Finn without a second thought as to exactly what she's saying. But now a fourth person enters the scene, as a happy Tony enters the room singing and immediately picks up something is off by the way they're all looking at him. Carmela, who understands the implications of this news a bit more than Meadow does, immediately tells her to tell Tony. She's pissed but Carmela insists, while Tony squints as he tries to figure out what it is that is going to be chipping away at his positive outlook this time. At the back of Satriale's, Silvio, Christopher, Carlo, Paulie, Bobby, Patsy and Dante are all pleased to see Tony arrive with Finn, cracking dentist jokes at the nervous young man's expense. It's no laughing matter though, as Tony tells them all to be quiet and listen to what Finn is about to tell them. He's terrified to say anything but Tony calmly insists, and now the table of gangsters has fallen silent as the poor young man who just wanted to get a good job out of college sits at the center of attention.   The man at the center of all this attention finds himself wandering idly through the streets of Dartford. The people are pleasant and friendly, greeting him as he moves out of the town proper into a lovely rest area besides a waterfall. He settles down beside it and becomes entranced by the foot of the waterfall, staring deep into the churning waters. A man who jumped from that waterfall would surely perish, and wouldn't that make all these horrible problems he is facing just go away? Back at Satriale's, Finn has finished recounting his Vito story and is greeted by a deeply uncomfortable silence. Finally Silvio speaks, wanting elaboration on a point. He begins to ask about the security guard who was giving Vito a blowjob, but Finn corrects him, it was Vito giving the security guard the blowjob. Paulie is aghast and Finn has to say it again, and Paulie loses his mind, while a revolted Carlo confirms it: Vito was catching, not pitching. Even Tony has to walk away from the table at this revelation, while Finn begs to know if Vito is going to know he talked. Paulie, until this moment still a supporter of Vito, insists that he doesn't have to worry about Vito anymore. This of course has the opposite effect on a horrified Finn, but Christopher at least is smart and tactful enough to reassure him: nobody is going to hurt Vito, but they're going to confront him with this and make sure he gets therapy as he clearly has issues he needs to deal with. Tony takes this as the cue to get Finn the hell out of there, putting on a warm smile and slipping him some cash, telling him to go get a sandwich and soda and somebody will come drive him home soon. Finn shuffles out, clearly knowing that the implications for Vito are far more than therapy. Alone, the Captains are united at last: Vito can't be allowed to continue with them. The only disagreement now is exactly how harsh the punishment will be. Bobby clearly thinks exile is the correct choice, while Carlo is adamant that death is the only answer. Paulie agrees, as always now that he's set his mind on a path he is 1000% committed. When Tony tells him to sit down after he declares Vito has to die, Paulie refuses, demanding that there is nothing to think about. Tony, only so recently having re-established his dominance, is sure as gently caress not going to let Paulie call it back into question now. He gets right in his face, roaring at him to ask if he is the done who intends to look after Vito's kids when he is gone? Christopher, a true-believer in Tony again for this week at least, agrees that the kids have done nothing wrong and don't deserve to be punished even second-hand. This seems to have blunted Paulie's rage, he's already put a beating on one guy to get the money coming in to keep his adopted mother in Green Grove, he can't be forking out the cash for two kids upkeep and education as well. Calmer now, Tony tells him to sit down again and Paulie apologizes, and Christopher lightens the mood as he begins laughing and points out he never knew what Vito meant by "greasing the union" until now. Patsy and even Carlo can't help but laugh, and Tony takes the moment to remind them that what they've just learned can't leave this room. They can all agree on that, they detest Vito but they also don't want the second-hand embarrassment of admitting one of their own was gay all this time and none of them knew it. Unfortunately there is no putting this genie back in the bottle, and Marie Spatafore soon finds herself receiving a caller to her home. It is a member of her family and a very, very dangerous man to be on the wrong side of: Phil Leotardo. He is visiting to offer her commiseration but also with a very specific goal in mind: he wants to kill Vito. He doesn't tell her that of course, but he explains calmly and sympathetically that a reliable witness saw Vito involved with another man in a car (so somebody at that meeting spilled the beans, I wonder who?) and there can be no denying it. Marie is beside herself, insisting that Vito is a good man and a wonderful father to their children. Phil offers all the right words, assuring her that he loves Vito too and has only his best interests in mind. But as he talks, it is clear that he is fishing for information. This is a calmer Phil doing the same trick he pulled with Christopher's mother last season. But here he has his emotions under control, he doesn't snap or threaten, he cajoles and entices and offers her a rock of support she can cling to in order to get what he wants. Because Phil wants Phil, his hatred stemming from a variety of sources: for now it is enough simply to know that he considered Vito like family and if there is one thing Phil has always been adamant about, it's that he takes family VERY seriously.   Carmela arrives at Angie's bodyshop and is directed to her office. She walks in with a quick knock and is surprised to see Patsy and Benny sitting at the desk across from her warmly assuring her they can get her whatever she wants. They cut off as soon as they see Carmela, and she nervously explains she came to pick up the certificates for the auction. Angie promises she'll be out soon... once the meeting is over. Carmela smiles and nods and leaves, but once outside she's no choice but to accept what just happened, Angie just dismissed her to wait on her pleasure while undertaking business that the wife of a mobster isn't supposed to be privy to. The woman she once pitied but also silently enjoyed feeling better than has through sheer grit and determination made herself into the exact type of self-sufficient success Carmela has never been able to achieve even with Tony's money backing her. Later she and Rosalie are going over some of the auction prizes and she tells her about the odd meeting. Rosalie notes that Angie has money out on the street now, surprised that Angie didn't tell Carmela herself since she told Rosalie. Too late she winces and realized that Angie probably said nothing because of Tony, not to hide it from him but because Tony's business and Carmela's life aren't supposed to intersect. Rosalie assumes that it was Tony who told Angie not to let Carmela know, and that itself is another kick in the teeth: the man who looked at her with such love and shared vulnerabilities he'd never share with anybody else has been doing business with a woman that has always been Carmela's social inferior/lackey before now and keeping it from her as a matter of course, like nothing has changed since before the shooting. She tries to keep a positive outlook, offering a a' salut' she clearly feels little enthusiasm for. She points out that their grandmothers used to do this type of thing, and while it was harder times then, good for Angie for doing it now. Rosalie gets to the real point though: Angie used to be one of them, now she more like their husbands. Carlo is summoned to see Tony at the back office of the Bada Bing. As Silvio prepares drinks, Tony gives him the extremely welcome news: they're putting him in charge of the construction side of the business to replace Vito. It's the biggest, most lucrative thing the DiMeo Family does and Carlo clearly knows it, gaping and laughing in joyful disbelief. Tony credits him for doing so well operating the ports, as well as the respect he carries across the board. Carlo thanks him profusely and then throws back his head and lets out a huge laugh of genuine happiness. They toast and knock back a drink each, but in this perfect moment Carlo chooses to use the endorsement as a reason to bring forth an ongoing issue: how are they going to deal with Vito? Tony listens, silently fuming, as Carlo explains that Vito's crew and at least two of the Captains would refuse to work with Vito if he was to return, and he admits that he counts himself among them. Silvio admits that Paulie has gone completely over-the-top in his desire to get at Vito now that Vito's homosexuality is beyond doubt. Angry, Tony reminds them that while the others may not want to work with Vito, they don't get to decide WHO they work with, only Tony gets to do that. Vito through sheer hardwork and dedication turned himself into the family's top earner (remember he used to be the butt of Ralphie's fat-guy jokes and not much else) and Tony isn't going to burn that kind of dedication. He's also probably thinking again about the fact that the previous guys in that position were often more trouble than the money made them worth, while Vito's only real issue was holding back the 100k to Carmela while Tony was in the coma, and otherwise he was just a trouble-free guy who brought him giant stacks of cash regularly. Obviously he'd hoped Carlo would be the same, but less than a minute into his new role he's already giving him a headache. He adds that some of the others think they should track Vito down and put him down "for the honor of the family". Tony shakes his head, pointing out that too many people live for high drama, and some are just insane about finding any excuse to whack somebody. When Carlo - himself a murderer and a criminal - echoes Tony's strict Catholic line by saying homosexuality is a sin, Tony can only laugh before quietly reminding him that they both know Vito is not the first homosexual mobster. But Carlo has said his piece, and Tony doesn't strictly hold it against him. They embrace before Carlo leaves, Carlo again thanking him for the unimaginable boon he has been given. Tony settles back in his chair and once again tries to read a magazine, but this time it's not a rattling lid but a quiet Silvio that wrecks his mood. He demands to know what the problem is, pointing out it is 2006. Silvio's arguments however ignore the "sin" aspect and strike right at an issue far closer to Tony's heart: what if this costs them money? They both know the Captains don't ever quite kick up the full amount they SHOULD from their various scams and capers, but it is an accepted price of doing business. But if they take Vito back with open arms, there are those who would take advantage of the "outrage" to hold back more money. Serious money perhaps. That is something Tony can't quite discount no matter what year it is, and he gives up on trying to read his magazine at last. This time it was Silvio who chipped away at his positive outlook.   At Meadow's interning job, she is introduced to Rafaello Martino, the lead attorney on the case Meadow is doing the paperwork for, as well as a handsome young lawyer called Michael Kardish. Martino lays out Meadow's excellent resume, but when she mentions the law center Meadow can't help but start talking about the kinds of cases she sees there. Martino cuts her off to ask the intern to provide the files she needs to her assistant. They leave as Meadow shuts up and gets back to work, and Martino - no longer smiling and approving of her accomplished young intern - grunts that she is "Tony Soprano's kid". For many, no matter how qualified and forward thinking she might be, that is all Meadow Soprano ever will be. At home, Tony is in the poll doing weight exercises to try and put back on muscle mass. Carmela walks up and asks him if he spoke to the building inspector, and he admits he forgot. She doesn't say anything, she doesn't complain and moan, she just turns and walks away. The worst part is she doesn't look disappointed, more resigned. Tony senses that she's not happy, but not how unhappy, and goes back to his exercises. That night in the poolhouse where Finn has been set up to sleep while staying with the Sopranos, Meadow and Finn are smoking weed as they lay on his mattress post-sex, talking about her interning job and white collar fraud. She notes the hypocrisy of a man who stole 80 million dollars being out on bail already while John Sacrimoni was hauled out of his daughter's wedding in handcuffs even though he's still waiting trial and should be presumed innocent. She is making a relevant point, but when contrasted with her earlier tirade about the Muslim family's ill-treatment, I can't help but feel that her ultimate takeaway from this has been to create a false equivalence in her mind between the poor Muslims suffering entrenched racism in a post-9/11 environment and the police investigating her friends and family for being active members of the Mafia. Finn can't help but note that Johnny "Macaroni" has been indicted for murder which is a different kettle of fish, but he can't really dispute Meadow pointing out that letting him stay an extra 15 minutes (hell, an extra 15 seconds) wouldn't have hurt anybody. They hear a door closing out by the main house and Meadow quickly tells him to pull some pants on in case Tony (and probably only Tony) pops his head in. She slips on her top and talks more about the wedding, about how it was pure harassment designed to humiliate Johnny Sack. Finn thinks it's something that they at least let him out in the first place, and when Meadow complains that his lack of outrage over John's treatment is somehow an endorsement of white collar crime he declares that they should change the subject. She's not letting it go though, pointing out his "Macaroni" crack and accusing him of following his father's policy of trying to hide his Italian heritage. Finn pauses and ponders her for a second, knowing her better than almost anybody, and correctly points out that she's trying to pick a fight and he doesn't know why. She's still angry and complains he's slamming her family, but her heart isn't in it anymore and she knows it. He comments on how good the weed is and she agrees, and they sit uncomfortably for a moment. Now it is Finn who starts the argument, as unable to sit on it anymore he tells her about the "grand inquisition" about Vito he had to sit through. She correctly points out that now he is the one picking a fight, but he's gotten started now and he isn't going to stop. She has never taken his concerns over Vito seriously, even smiling when she told Carmela and Rosalie about Vito threatening Finn. Now he snaps as he points out the horror of the situation he was in, sitting in the back of a butcher shop with "Uncle Paulie" ratting out somebody he doesn't even really know. He challenges Meadow, what does SHE think is going to happen to Vito for the "crime" of being gay? Dragging way back to their first big Vito argument, he pulls out something he has clearly been waiting for the opportune moment to throw back in her face. He warns her not to give him any of that "poverty of the mezzogiorno bullshit" she once claimed was a necessary and relevant alternative to corrupt laws. They're in Caldwell, New Jersey and her father and his friends are going to mete out their own brand of "justice" to Vito simply for being gay. Meadow offers only disgust and a comment that this is "untenable", leaving the poolhouse and Finn to savor a "victory" that must feel pretty empty. Because she had no answer, because the fact is there is none: she can dress it up however she likes, complain about abuse of the legal system and unfair biases till the cows come home. The truth of the matter is, her father and his associates are criminals, and they're going to kill a man simply for being a homosexual. How the hell do you win an argument FOR that? Vito resisted the call of the waterfall it seems. Now on another suspiciously perfect New Hampshire day, he wanders the streets again and finds himself outside an antique store. With nothing else to do, he enters, taking a moment to stare outside onto the street and noting the State's motto on the license plate of a car: Live Free or Die. He moves around inside the store, looking over the items. He picks up something he likes the look of, and the owner points out that he has a very good eye, this is the most expensive item in the store. Vito admits he doesn't really know much about this type of thing, and the owner smiles and tells him he's a natural.   There's a lot to consider about this final scene. Some have criticized it (and a lot of the Dartford storyline) as falling into some uncomfortable stereotypes about gay people. I won't deny it's all a little on the nose, particularly the old stereotype about gay people being antiquers. So why do I like this scene so much? Because I think the intended message is a particularly strong one, especially in the face of Vito's self-loathing and the almost endless homophobia on display throughout the rest of the episode from the core cast. When the store owner tells Vito he's a natural, I don't think the message is "Because Vito is gay, he is naturally good at picking antiques". I feel a core message is present throughout almost all the Dartford scenes, particularly that of the accepted gay couple in the diner. For the first time in his life, Vito has been removed from an environment that has told him endlessly that being gay is a sin and an abomination and something that will get you killed. In a state with the motto "Live Free or Die", for the first time in his life Vito Spatafore is realizing that what he is - a homosexual man - is perfectly natural. Season 6: Members Only | Join the Club | Mayham | The Fleshy Part of the Thigh | Mr. & Mrs. John Sacrimoni Request... | Live Free or Die | Luxury Lounge | Johnny Cakes | The Ride | Moe n' Joe | Cold Stones | Kaisha Season 1 | Season 2 | Season 3 | Season 4 | Season 5 | Season 6.1 | Season 6.2 Jerusalem fucked around with this message at 15:32 on Apr 23, 2020 |
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Jan 22, 2020 11:59
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"This is untenable" got a huge laugh out of me when I watched the episode the other day.
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Jan 22, 2020 18:52
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Jerusalem posted:The man at the center of all this attention finds himself wandering idly through the streets of Dartford. The people are pleasant and friendly, greeting him as he moves out of the town proper into a lovely rest area besides a waterfall. He settles down beside it and becomes entranced by the foot of the waterfall, staring deep into the churning waters. A man who jumped from that waterfall would surely perish, and wouldn't that make all these horrible problems he is facing just go away? Jerusalem posted:The woman she once pitied but also silently enjoyed feeling better than has through sheer grit and determination made herself into the exact type of self-sufficient success Carmela has never been able to achieve even with Tony's money backing her.
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Jan 22, 2020 19:03
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I wonder what Carmine Sr would have done about Vito. Would his "all about the money" stance have held up for something like this?
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Jan 23, 2020 00:33
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BrotherJayne posted:poo poo, I never put that together, but that's totally what he was thinking about, wasn't it! I didn't make a suicide connection with the waterfall either and just took it as a metaphor for several things: the rising water Vito was feeling, the proverbial opening of the floodgates or even just a glimpse at something he never gets to see in the mob life and living in the city. Still not sure or not if that's a stretch from Jerusalem but it's interesting. If he wanted to off himself, Vito already had a gun so..I dunno. And all of these characters' selective embracing of what is and is not a sin is infuriating and something that even eats at me in day to life among so called religious people. I mean, yeah, we can murder people, extort, steal, lie and commit adultery but sucking cock is a bridge too far. Unless you're in the can. You get a pass for that. Even though some of it was rather heavy handed, I still think it was interesting to at least to try to take a look at homosexuality in the modern mafia, and using the fattest and arguably least attractive member of the crew to explore the idea was kind of, in a way, playing against stereotypes. Even Tony realized he didn't give a poo poo; or at least didn't give enough of a poo poo to cut into his money.
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Jan 23, 2020 01:25
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BrotherJayne posted:poo poo, I never put that together, but that's totally what he was thinking about, wasn't it! I absolutely believe it, that and the scene in the previous episode when he's in the motel room and can't stop looking at his gun, I'm sure he's contemplating suicide. BrotherJayne posted:Not that, y'know, this "self-sufficeient success" ain't dipped in the same poo poo that stains anything around these people Oh absolutely. But it's what Carmela wants for herself (and it's not like she has any qualms about where the money comes from), plus it proves the lie about this not being a woman's place and the sheer hypocrisy of these guys with their madonna/whore complexes who are more than willing to toss that all aside when Angie becomes somebody they can make money with. Suddenly gender roles and "traditional values" go out the window, because yes with very rare exceptions at the end of the day Johnny Sack's lament is true: it really IS only about the money. Hell, look at Tony. He's willing to set aside his personal distaste towards Vito being gay because he can make money from him. But then Silvio points out that others might hold back money as a result/in protest, and suddenly Tony is facing the prospect of losing money by protecting Vito at which point his "a' salut'" gets a lot shakier. And to get into spoiler territory, what ends up killing Vito is money, when a guy takes a loan from him and then snitches on him to Phil so he won't have to pay it back.
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Jan 23, 2020 01:29
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The scene with Vito and the waterfall- I never made that connection because all I could think was, this wordless scene is the exact length it takes for Finn to tell his story- which is a brilliant way to do it, to cut away from and then back to nervous Finn without hearing a word of what he actually says.
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Jan 23, 2020 02:35
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The mobsters all freaking out further when they realize that Vito was giving and not taking is pretty incredible too. I know there is a precedent for this rear end-backwards style of thinking but it still cracks me up that the thing that REALLY freaks them out is the idea that Vito would be on the "woman" side of things. It completely flies in the face of their bullshit understanding of masculinity and they sure as gently caress don't like their worldviews being challenged.
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Jan 23, 2020 02:40
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Jerusalem posted:The mobsters all freaking out further when they realize that Vito was giving and not taking is pretty incredible too. I know there is a precedent for this rear end-backwards style of thinking but it still cracks me up that the thing that REALLY freaks them out is the idea that Vito would be on the "woman" side of things. It completely flies in the face of their bullshit understanding of masculinity and they sure as gently caress don't like their worldviews being challenged. Well, this is the group that things cunnilingus can lead to homosexuality.
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Jan 23, 2020 03:46
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Carmela (?) just kind of sitting there going,"How... how does that even make any sense?" absolutely cracks me up. Edit: Actually I think it was probably Bobbi Sanfillipo
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Jan 23, 2020 04:06
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I can't tell if Meadow or Carmela is the worse person when the former tells the latter and Rosalie about what Finn witnessed. You have Meadow who has basically been gaslighting Finn for at least a year, rejecting every aspect of his experience with Vito with a bunch of excuses and bullshit, but then admitting to her mother that she 100% believes him and presents it as fact. Then you have Carmela promising Meadow that she won't say a word, and then immediately telling Tony about it, knowing what will probably end up happening to Vito.
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Jan 23, 2020 15:27
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banned from Starbucks posted:I wonder what Carmine Sr would have done about Vito. Would his "all about the money" stance have held up for something like this? He probably would have had him whacked, ultimately. Johnny would have pointed out the same thing Sil did which is that their underlings kicking up might stop kicking up as much money if they thought the rules were being flagrantly broken. Tony was going to keep Vito alive until he came around to that line of thinking.
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Jan 23, 2020 16:24
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Ginette Reno posted:He probably would have had him whacked, ultimately. Johnny would have pointed out the same thing Sil did which is that their underlings kicking up might stop kicking up as much money if they thought the rules were being flagrantly broken. Maybe not whacked though. With Carmine in charge and a healthy Johnny Sack in control of all the day to day stuff like he was in the past, I think it would've been likely they'd just kick Vito out of New York/New Jersey and tell anyone who demands he be killed to gently caress off.
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Jan 23, 2020 16:47
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Have they ever exiled anyone? I thought paranoia over someone they can't control going to the feds makes that impossible.
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Jan 23, 2020 16:57
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They usually go into witness protection.
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Jan 23, 2020 17:13
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Basebf555 posted:Maybe not whacked though. With Carmine in charge and a healthy Johnny Sack in control of all the day to day stuff like he was in the past, I think it would've been likely they'd just kick Vito out of New York/New Jersey and tell anyone who demands he be killed to gently caress off. Bip Roberts posted:Have they ever exiled anyone? I thought paranoia over someone they can't control going to the feds makes that impossible. Yeah I dunno if you get kicked out of the mob. If you're out it's because you're in jail, a rat, or dead. If Vito were Carmine's underling, I think Vito gets eventually whacked after Carmine comes to the same realization Tony/Sil did. I think Carmine would have intially wanted to keep him alive due to him being a good earner, though. If it's just the same situation on the show aka Vito is Tony's and Carmine is still boss then I think Carmine leaves it up to Tony as to how that is handled. And Tony eventually kills him like he was planning on doing anyways. Phil just accelerated what Tony was already planning on doing anyways. Albeit, Phil did do it in a much more violent and cruel way than I think Tony would have.
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Jan 23, 2020 17:18
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Great writeup, Jerusalem - thanks! The whole Vito storyline is a dicey one. There is a lot of good stuff in there, watching these rigid pricks try to deal with someone who doesn't conform to their standard version of manhood. The final scene coming up at the end of the Vito arc, with Phil in the hotel, has a lot of symbolism to chew on. But I think it is hamstrung by two factors: First, the show hasn't really earned its cred in terms of depicting three-dimensional gay characters, and Vito's adventures in New Hampshire all seem like the life of a gay man written by a bunch of straight people who are guessing what it is like. But bigger than that is that Joe Gannascoli is not a good actor, and he doesn't do the work that is needed to sell the conflict and inner turmoil. It's a tough needle to thread, they are trying to tell a story about a guy who discovers a life outside of his narrow box, but then is too big a shithead to accept it and ends up sliding back into crime. But that is a really fine tightrope to walk and Vito just isn't the guy for it. It would take someone like Gandolfini who can express huge depths of feeling with a look, especially with the somewhat cliched script choices. Gannascoli is no Gandolfini.
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Jan 23, 2020 17:27
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There is the ability to "retire" from the mob, considering that's what they allowed Bobby Sr. and Uncle Pat to do, and that's what Eugene was trying to do.
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Jan 23, 2020 17:47
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Pope Corky the IX posted:There is the ability to "retire" from the mob, considering that's what they allowed Bobby Sr. and Uncle Pat to do, and that's what Eugene was trying to do. Not in your prime usually. I'm sure Bobby SR was pretty active until he got older/sicker. Eugene got told no to retiring because he was still healthy and able enough to earn. Not to mention even if you do step back like Bobby did you're still liable to get roped back into it the moment they think they need you for something.
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Jan 23, 2020 18:47
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Ginette Reno posted:Not in your prime usually. I'm sure Bobby SR was pretty active until he got older/sicker. Eugene got told no to retiring because he was still healthy and able enough to earn. Oh, I know it was because the two of them were old and sick, and Eugene was naive to think it would apply to him over getting that huge inheritance. Honestly, when the episode first aired, I thought it was going to be about the other guys trying like hell to figure out how to get the money (wasn't it two million?) from Eugene's family. Also, Bobby Sr. agreed to do the hit. He had every right to say no, which is what Junior and Ralphie (and even Johnny, though he had to keep the peace) believed he should have done.
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Jan 23, 2020 19:12
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The exile thing makes me wonder why Gigi was in Boston. Did he have to, as Furio says, lambchop it?
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Jan 23, 2020 19:17
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Pope Corky the IX posted:Oh, I know it was because the two of them were old and sick, and Eugene was naive to think it would apply to him over getting that huge inheritance. Honestly, when the episode first aired, I thought it was going to be about the other guys trying like hell to figure out how to get the money (wasn't it two million?) from Eugene's family. It's true. He could have said no. But the fact they even thought to ask in the first place shows how hard it is to get away from that life for good. Even at death's door you might get a call from them to do something.
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Jan 23, 2020 19:23
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Dawgstar posted:The exile thing makes me wonder why Gigi was in Boston. Did he have to, as Furio says, lambchop it? Yeah, he was under the impression that he was also going to be killed or arrested like everyone else in Junior's crew other than Bobby, Beppy, and Murf. The implication is that Gigi agreed to kill Spoons and join Tony's crew so as not to suffer the same fate. I think that's why Tony was so high up on putting him in charge of the Aprile crew after Richie disappeared.
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Jan 23, 2020 19:39
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Yea "exile" makes it sound like there's some official meeting or something where they tell you to leave and never come back. But I do think that when guys are in situations like Gigi was, or Pussy or Vito, they're right that their best chance is just to disappear and hope that the boss decides tracking them down from halfway across the country is more trouble than it's worth.
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Jan 23, 2020 20:16
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Dawgstar posted:The exile thing makes me wonder why Gigi was in Boston. Did he have to, as Furio says, lambchop it? Don't they show Paulie dropping him off at the airport only for Spoons to pick him up a minute later? I always figured the Boston exile story was bullshit.
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Jan 23, 2020 20:21
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Vichan posted:Don't they show Paulie dropping him off at the airport only for Spoons to pick him up a minute later? I always figured the Boston exile story was bullshit. He really was away in Boston, he just came back sooner than Spoons knew.
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Jan 23, 2020 20:33
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I forget. For all of Phil's bs about losing respect for John the only real thing he does against him is screwing him out of the vitamin hijacking right? Until he pleads guilty that is.
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Jan 23, 2020 20:40
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Tony wants money and as little disruption as possible, which is why he originally lets it slide- to cap Vito will cost more in both the long and short term than keeping him around. All that matters is that he earns and earns good. This changes once New York and his own crew put the screws to him financially and show him he’s going to hurt either way. NY beat him to the punch, but lol at thinking Vito wouldn’t get his “exile” delivered to the back of his head by the DiMeo crew given more time. As stated upthread, you don’t “retire” from this thing. And it’s more trouble to leave a former asset as a loose end that could be compromised by the feds than to, you know. Related to Carlo getting construction this ep, in the next season (if you buy chases delineation of 6.1 and 6.2 as 6 and 7 respectively) is one of my favourite lines, from Tony to Carlo: “maybe you should start suckin cock instead of watching TV land, cuz Vito brought in THREE TIMES what you do on construction. Yeah!” The look on Carlos face is just so heartbroken and priceless, I love it.
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Jan 23, 2020 21:36
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"You got a note from your doctor saying you dont suck cock?"
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Jan 23, 2020 22:09
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COMPAGNIE TOMMY posted:Related to Carlo getting construction this ep, in the next season (if you buy chases delineation of 6.1 and 6.2 as 6 and 7 respectively) is one of my favourite lines, from Tony to Carlo: “maybe you should start suckin cock instead of watching TV land, cuz Vito brought in THREE TIMES what you do on construction. Yeah!” The look on Carlos face is just so heartbroken and priceless, I love it. Interesting bit about this interaction is that Carlo is describing the Twilight Zone episode "A Nice Place to Visit" where Rocky Valentine finds himself gambling but never losing and getting any woman he wants, thinking he's in heaven, only to find out that he's actually in hell by the end. Tony's experience in Vegas after murdering Christopher is very much like it.
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Jan 23, 2020 22:13
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Pope Corky the IX posted:Rocky Valentine From Philly? With the polio leg and the built-up shoe?
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Jan 23, 2020 22:20
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COMPAGNIE TOMMY posted:From Philly? With the polio leg and the built-up shoe? Those kinds of misunderstandings and ridiculous details are one of my favorite parts of this show. To this day my spouse and I will occasionally walk into the room to talk to one another and one of us will ask "...is this about the Easter baskets?"
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Jan 23, 2020 22:21
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I think Vito was bi, not gay
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Jan 23, 2020 22:48
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escape artist posted:I think Vito was bi, not gay I dunno, I think the part with his goomar complaining he hasn't hosed her in ages is partly there to push him well into the gay side rather than something more ambiguous. It seems the only reason he's got a goomar is for the benefit of the people around him, not really for himself, partly evidenced by the other guys trying to use it as justification for why he can't be gay when the accusations first come up.
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Jan 24, 2020 00:03
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| # ? Apr 29, 2024 12:11 |
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I wonder where Vito was stashing his leather getup when he was on the clock. He couldn’t keep it at home, maybe in the trunk of his car?
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Jan 24, 2020 00:08
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