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Kegslayer posted:As one of the other posters pointed out, Tahani was the only person who understood the point of the show. Nobody should be forced to suffer for eternity but we have a responsibility to help and be good to the people around us. Concur. My wife and I said nearly the exact same thing. We also thought that it was as selfish of Chidi to want to leave when Eleanor was not ready as it was for her to want him to stay. But maybe that's the distinction between spouses and eternal boyfriend/girlfriend. We can imagine only walking through the door together or never at all. flatluigi posted:I really don't know how so many of you could've watched the entire run of this show and insist it's loving advocating suicide It's really just the last couple episodes with the introduction of the exit door that's rubbed us the wrong way. Although it made a difference that the last scenes shows that when a human passes through the door, they don't become nothing; they become positive energy falling on the Earth like rain. But that's not what the people seek when they walk through the door. They appear to seek quietus. Ultimately, though, I'm only half-surprised that all professional reviewers I've seen have had only positive things to say about the finale. It is still a good and humane show, even if these last episodes did not land for us as it did for seemingly most other watchers.
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Feb 1, 2020 00:31
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demota posted:I feel like the final episode of The Good Place was about saying goodbye to The Good Place. No, I felt the same way. Apart from the last time, each character's passage through the doorway was marked with a cut. It felt like the show was editing the characters out, that they can't last forever because the show is finite. The plot had to bring their existence to an end to mirror their departure from the lives of the audience.
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Feb 1, 2020 00:33
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RBA Starblade posted:So that definitely means the afterlife will eventually empty forever one day right This is what I thought happened when Michael showed up to the meeting that had been canceled. I figured the Judge was going to say “There aren’t any more people to go through.” I’m not sure why, I wasn’t thinking annihilation, but like heat death or something
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Feb 1, 2020 01:11
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The podcast commentary on Jason was extremely touching. Mike Schur had a great way of justifying his character that made him something more than a big dummy.
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Feb 1, 2020 02:10
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I hear what everyone's saying, and I think everyone is just lashing out because there wasn't more Disco Janet
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Feb 1, 2020 02:28
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Kegslayer posted:Instead you have the same people who now have all their needs met, are clearly still healthy and happy, who still have meaningful relationships with people but got bored and decided to end it all.
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Feb 1, 2020 02:53
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^^^^ Yes. Honestly, if people want to view the door as an actual 'suicide' door, that's on them. It's incredibly easy to take it at face value in the way its presented. After all, the audience of the show are going to make it relate to the world around them. We're only human, and the people who wrote the show are human, same as the actors. However, if you look at it in the context of the show, with people dying on Earth and moving on to the next phase of their existence, it becomes clearer for what it really is: a door that returns you back to the universe. Can our human perspectives even begin to contemplate what perfect contentment would be compared to all reality? I'm sure we think we could. The show throws around the term 'eternal being' quite a lot, but nobody watching can even begin to perceive of eternity. What if you didn't want eternity? What if you were at a point where eternity had nothing more to offer? Shouldn't you be able to make that choice?
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Feb 1, 2020 03:14
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Arist posted:So, first I'd like to say that you escalated the scenario in a way that feels rather hostile, and that's weird. This isn't deaf people or people with autism, where they're a culture and a people unto themselves. You said medicating a person's ADHD would be killing the person, which is extremely hosed up and you need to not say that ever because there's a very real chance it could harm somebody.
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Feb 1, 2020 03:36
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I dated super long distance, so I didn’t get the opportunity to properly live with my wife until we got married, then moved out of her parents place where we were for a few months to pick our own home. The Good Place started airing a month or so after that, and so it became one of the first shows we both watched properly together, rather than say American Dad where we’d watched it individually for years. When she passed away unexpectedly last year, it was always going to be tough to watch a comedy about a life of the party, dyed blond girl with a sharp tongue without her. I was pretty much bawling through the whole finale, but it made me laugh and it felt like a tiny bit of closure as well. I’ll take those bits however I can get them, so hey. I kind of feel about the show ending the same way I see places we’d hang out in town close down, sad I can’t go there anymore but glad nobody else can enjoy it when she can’t.
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Feb 1, 2020 04:47
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That finale was morbid and depressing and it soured me on the whole show.
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Feb 1, 2020 05:04
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Concurred posted:However, if you look at it in the context of the show, with people dying on Earth and moving on to the next phase of their existence, it becomes clearer for what it really is: a door that returns you back to the universe. Can our human perspectives even begin to contemplate what perfect contentment would be compared to all reality? I'm sure we think we could. The show throws around the term 'eternal being' quite a lot, but nobody watching can even begin to perceive of eternity. In the context of experiencing eternity then death or non existence would be a valid option but in the context of the show, it goes against everything they've worked towards. Isn't the main thesis of the show that we should do good because we owe it to those around us? It's not something that has an expiry date or a point where you're suppose to go 'well that's my debt paid up'. If your presence helps people, if there are people around you that still depend on you then the ethical thing to do would be to stay. Being in heaven shouldn't somehow cancel that obligation you have to the people around you. We try, we might succeed or fail but we try again. On top of that, it's not like the feeling to go was an overwhelming compulsion. Jason was ready until something happened and he still had more to do. Tahani redirected it to doing more to help people. etc
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Feb 1, 2020 05:04
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The door reminds me of a special report I once watched about centegenarians, the people who live for over 100 years. What they found was that such people can come from all different backgrounds and all walks of life, and they deal with all sorts of different medical conditions brought about by their age. However, they all had one thing in common: they all had a reason to get up in the morning and keep busy throughout the rest of their day. It could be a loved one, a community, or a hobby, but there was always something. The implication of this commonality, at least to me, is this: once you reach a certain age and your body starts failing you, there are a million things that can kill you but only one thing that will keep you alive: a purpose. Something to do with yourself. If you run out of reasons, if you decide you've done and seen enough, you will soon fade away and pass on. So far as I can figure, that's the reason why my father's parents died approximately six months apart. They were both in their 90s at the time. That final sense of contentment they explore in this last episode is a real feeling, although you have to be pretty lucky for your body to hold out long enough for you to experience it. But that's why I don't see the door as a matter of suicide. Because people who get one chance at life and go through a paltry seven to ten decades have experienced the feeling that brings people to the door. The main characters don't age in The Good Place and so they have to go out and walk through the door, but when people experience that feeling in reality, the door comes to them. Maybe some people never experience that feeling and keep going for as long as their bodies will let them, but that's fine, too.
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Feb 1, 2020 05:06
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I don't see the ending as suicide, per se, but as Nirvana. They describe it in pretty much all but name. It's not a sense of happiness. It's a sense of pure and total satisfaction; a sense of needing nothing more. It's reaching the very top of Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs and then surpassing it. Full and total Self-actualization. There are moments in your life that can make that sense felt, but it's a fleeting thing for most people. For Jason, Chidi and Eleanor, they felt it. That sense of pure self satisfaction. Jason and Eleanor went in immediately, but Chidi waited because he knew that Eleanor wasn't ready. He waited because endings affect everyone and he waited for Eleanor feel ready. There's tons of stuff Chidi hadn't done or tried. He just picked up a new hobby. But he was already ready. He was just waiting for the person he care most about to be ready. That's what makes it different from suicide. For Tahani, she wasn't quite ready. She was satisfied with all of the things she could do as a human, but she wanted to do more. She was satisfied in some way, but she still wanted to do and experience and to help more. Maybe one day she'll walk though the doorway when she feels she should, but even by the end of the show, she wasn't. To put it in the parallel of reincarnation and Buddhism, she chose to stay in the cycle after she achieved nirvana so as to try and help others reach it. It's a valid choice, just as exiting the cycle is. (of course, they describe the cycle and existence itself as a form of tribulation whereas The Good Place, where team Cockroach is, is more or less past that). Their departure isn't suicide. It's independence and acceptance. There's also how we emotionally attach endings, whether they're of life or shows or anything, to bad things. They're definitely sad and sometimes heartbreaking, but it's not. Endings are things that happen, and the sadness comes for knowing there will never be more. It then becomes "bad" because of the inability to accept that state.
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Feb 1, 2020 05:09
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Double post but you know how there's some of those dumb "The Philosophy of _________" books that exist for poo poo like Deadpool or Batman? There's gonna be one for this series, I bet, and if it's not literally an 800 page textbook, it's gonna suck.
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Feb 1, 2020 05:15
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Kegslayer posted:There's a good discussion to be had about what eternity means or the non Buddhist equivalent of escaping the cycle of rebirth but the door isn't it. It is 100% suicide. Maybe think of the "door" as not a choice to die, but as an inevitability, one way or another. No matter how long we live (in the show's case, even in a manufactured "eternal" life), sometimes it's got to/gets to end. In the real world, we can "choose" to die at any point, but we can also accept that a return to nothing will happen, eventually, without our control, and yet we can continue to live and do good for as long as we can muster it. And yet still accept that that end is coming. And still not choose to go away before we're done. Less "euthanasia" or "suicide" and more of acceptance of what will happen. Do one's best for a thousand eternities in the meantime...or for however long it works out. Otteration fucked around with this message at 05:31 on Feb 1, 2020 |
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Feb 1, 2020 05:28
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Xelkelvos posted:I don't see the ending as suicide, per se, but as Nirvana. They describe it in pretty much all but name. It's not a sense of happiness. It's a sense of pure and total satisfaction; a sense of needing nothing more. It's reaching the very top of Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs and then surpassing it. Full and total Self-actualization. There are moments in your life that can make that sense felt, but it's a fleeting thing for most people. For Jason, Chidi and Eleanor, they felt it. That sense of pure self satisfaction. Jason and Eleanor went in immediately, but Chidi waited because he knew that Eleanor wasn't ready. He waited because endings affect everyone and he waited for Eleanor feel ready. There's tons of stuff Chidi hadn't done or tried. He just picked up a new hobby. But he was already ready. He was just waiting for the person he care most about to be ready. That's what makes it different from suicide. For Tahani, she wasn't quite ready. She was satisfied with all of the things she could do as a human, but she wanted to do more. She was satisfied in some way, but she still wanted to do and experience and to help more. Maybe one day she'll walk though the doorway when she feels she should, but even by the end of the show, she wasn't. To put it in the parallel of reincarnation and Buddhism, she chose to stay in the cycle after she achieved nirvana so as to try and help others reach it. It's a valid choice, just as exiting the cycle is. (of course, they describe the cycle and existence itself as a form of tribulation whereas The Good Place, where team Cockroach is, is more or less past that). Their departure isn't suicide. It's independence and acceptance. "It's a sense of pure and total satisfaction; a sense of needing nothing more." And whether that needed sense happens or is more important now, in this life, or in theory later, in an afterlife.... "It then becomes "bad" because of the inability to accept that state." Yep. The bad part is our inability to accept that that which will happen is beyond our control, and to move on and do some good while we can despite it.
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Feb 1, 2020 05:44
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The thing that killed my buzz was the ending... where the cast talked about working on the show. I can’t stand that bullshit, especiallllllllllllly when they have a whole podcast where they feature mainly writers but also many of the other creative roles. Having Mike Schur there but offscreen was such hilarious bullshit. Even wilder that Vicki’s whole character was making fun of actors and how important they think they are to shows.
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Feb 1, 2020 05:57
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WSAENOTSOCK posted:Your implication that seeking treatment for debilitating problems is somehow killing the real me was escalated plenty, pal. What a truly wild reaction to a person's personal opinion about themselves.
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Feb 1, 2020 06:09
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Taear posted:Also sending Michael to Earth as a 72 year old seems harsh, I'm saying. a shitload of existence makes more sense if you're born wholly formed as a silver fox would you rather be brought into being as some loving idiot infant or as a confident slick rear end white man? i rest my case Bobbin Threadbare posted:That final sense of contentment they explore in this last episode is a real feeling, although you have to be pretty lucky for your body to hold out long enough for you to experience it. But that's why I don't see the door as a matter of suicide. Because people who get one chance at life and go through a paltry seven to ten decades have experienced the feeling that brings people to the door. The main characters don't age in The Good Place and so they have to go out and walk through the door, but when people experience that feeling in reality, the door comes to them. Maybe some people never experience that feeling and keep going for as long as their bodies will let them, but that's fine, too. agreed! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXyfCGDnuWs
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Feb 1, 2020 06:09
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theflyingexecutive posted:The thing that killed my buzz was the ending... where the cast talked about working on the show. I can’t stand that bullshit, especiallllllllllllly when they have a whole podcast where they feature mainly writers but also many of the other creative roles. Having Mike Schur there but offscreen was such hilarious bullshit. Even wilder that Vicki’s whole character was making fun of actors and how important they think they are to shows. They had like twelve minutes because the episode was long. It was basically a final bow after the curtains drop, nothing more. They have the podcast to celebrate the talent behind the show; right then the majority of the audience just wanted to see the actors again. It looked like they wanted Mike Shur to come up at the end, but the network needed to cut to Law & Order right then.
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Feb 1, 2020 06:11
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theflyingexecutive posted:Having Mike Schur there but offscreen was such hilarious bullshit. Keep in mind Schur haaaaaaaates being on camera and typically does zero press after a finale airs. I think he was just fine with how that after show with Seth worked out.
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Feb 1, 2020 06:34
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The live interview was done because the episode as shown with commercials went over the 1 hour block, so they needed a way to fill up the entire 1.5 hour slot. Otherwise they would’ve need to cut material until it fit the 1 hour time slot.
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Feb 1, 2020 06:58
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I get why, I just don’t agree with glorification of actors
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Feb 1, 2020 07:14
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I genuinely have no idea how you can watch this entire show and be upset at the ending. The characters going through life after life until they achieve apotheosis and move on to something beyond even gods and demons. It feels like the only way the show could have ended and it made perfect sense. Like I honestly don't get how anyone can view it as suicide. It requires such a staggering and honestly kind of offensive misreading of the text that it's sort of bewildering. The entire point is that the characters have reached the point where they are willing to face what comes next, content and at peace with their lives. It is their own choice and the 'sudden realization' is them being aware and making the choice of their own free will to go what lies beyond even those who know everything. It is the quiet acceptance of death on its own terms, satisfied with the life you have lead and preparing for the next great adventure. There is no a single loving element of suicide in it and trying to claim that shows some insane fundamental misunderstanding of what causes suicidal urges.
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Feb 1, 2020 08:07
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I really, really, really loved that finale, I think it's the best finale to a show I've ever seen. Every single aspect of it landed for me, it felt complete in a remarkable way, everything earned over the course of seasons not paying off but rather culminating. E; ^^^ I agee 100% with this. I don't want to say my interpretation/reaction is the only valid one, of course not. But that was not about suicide in any meaningful sense, or if it was, only in the context of a future scifi world where we have literal immortality and death only happens when we choose it. Ms Adequate fucked around with this message at 08:12 on Feb 1, 2020 |
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Feb 1, 2020 08:09
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Something about actually seeing them in Paris made me very happy. I like Paris too.  Also Nick Offerman was credited as Nick Offerman. Generally I liked it, although I feel like I’d have been happier if it turned out they reincarnated into a new person after going through the door, and their past experiences acted as the little voice conscience. I can’t imagine getting tired of the afterlife though, if you can explore everything and everywhere with a whole universe at your beck and call. Show me other planets, Janet!
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Feb 1, 2020 09:00
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The_Doctor posted:Something about actually seeing them in Paris made me very happy. I like Paris too. After the first ten thousand or so planets they all start looking the same
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Feb 1, 2020 09:45
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The_Doctor posted:I can’t imagine getting tired of the afterlife though, if you can explore everything and everywhere with a whole universe at your beck and call. Show me other planets, Janet! They can't even visit Athens in the past, why would they go to other planets? It's the most limited rubbish afterlife ever. Like I said, it's like the holodeck in star trek only the computer is a person you can speak to.
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Feb 1, 2020 10:14
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Janet actually asked if they wanted to visit Ancient Greece in its full glory, but Eleanor specifically requested Greece as it was the first time Chidi saw it irl. So the possibility was there (and he probably may have gone there, at some point)
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Feb 1, 2020 10:19
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Edit: beaten
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Feb 1, 2020 10:22
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The episode turned me into a big old good mess and I loved it. It capped off a wonderful show in a thoughtful and human way. I cannot think of many shows that a) get to choose when to go out and b) stick the landing, but this one did. I love that they (the characters) got to control their own finality. That is something that truly resonates with me. I mentioned earlier, but the idea of eternal happiness never really made sense (and still not entirely) so having some thousands of bearimys to experience everything good and reach a form of eternal peace sounds wonderful to me. People who are saying in this thread, but you could do this and that and so forth are right. You, the poster saying it, could. You have not reached your point where you are content, and the show cannot essentially show multiple infinities of time other than the placard so we have to take it as read that all these things you came up with that they could still do they have done. They reached that happy completion and are ready to become the ocean again. It is utterly beautiful and meaningful to me. 
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Feb 1, 2020 10:29
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One thing that I wasn't sure about: does Michael remember the parts of the afterlife? There's some ambiguity that suggests he could have (the guitar scene, Michael Realman, etc.) but the whole idea seems to be that he shouldn't have the intention of getting into the Good Place influencing his moral decisions, and that it's maybe the little conscience lights that might nudge him in certain ways (like calling his dog Jason).
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Feb 1, 2020 10:40
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Ignis posted:Janet actually asked if they wanted to visit Ancient Greece in its full glory, but Eleanor specifically requested Greece as it was the first time Chidi saw it irl. So the possibility was there (and he probably may have gone there, at some point) But she says imagines ancient greeks as big muscled people and Chidi tells her what stuff looked like before and how it was used so she can't have been there. Why not? ApplesandOranges posted:One thing that I wasn't sure about : does Michael remember the parts of the afterlife? There's some ambiguity that suggests he could have (the guitar scene, Michael Realman, etc.) but the whole idea seems to be that he shouldn't have the intention of getting into the Good Place influencing his moral decisions, and that it's maybe the little conscience lights that might nudge him in certain ways (like calling his dog Jason). He must remember unless they've made a load of fake young person memories for him?
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Feb 1, 2020 10:55
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VideoGames posted:The episode turned me into a big old good mess and I loved it. It capped off a wonderful show in a thoughtful and human way. I cannot think of many shows that a) get to choose when to go out and b) stick the landing, but this one did. Contentment is only one part of the function of life. Another part is responsibility, which is a Good Place theme. I think they went for the surprise reveal that going through the door is returning to Earth in a different form, something able to even more directly change the course of a person's behavior for the better by simple contact. Because they did not know that was what was happening, there was something that felt oddly selfish about the desire to walk through the door when there was no known need or benefit in doing so and some pain caused by it on the people left behind or who cannot pass. It would be courageous to walk through the door if you knew it would return you to Earth as benevolent energy but you did not know what that would feel like, as it could be like the cessation of personal consciousness, which is scary. Then you can fulfill your wishlist and face the door which you knew was ultimately good for the universe but uncertain on what that's gonna be like. It's still a good show, and endings are always hard, and the world of The Good Place is not the same as our reality, of course. Over there, you can have magical eternal beings solve the problem of bad human behavior on near-automatic. Our reality still requires ongoing human participation in order to fix. And, all throughout, The Good Place encourages this.
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Feb 1, 2020 11:02
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I think that there was a lot of potential for the ending to be pretty bad (and I've been a bit harsher on this season compared to the previous ones), so I think they ended it pretty well. I do wonder if the demons/good place people would eventually choose to... I dunno, self-retire or marblelize or something. They don't have a door option. Taear posted:He must remember unless they've made a load of fake young person memories for him? Well, the test wouldn't work super well if he had all the knowledge of how it works. They could fiddle with his memories when he dies, I guess? I can't decide if it would be poignant for Human Michael to go through the test, get into the Good Place, and have them bring back his memories of being a fire squid and the Soul Squad, or just have him enjoy the paradise that he's earned without having to suddenly remember his four friends that are now gone. I imagine the former, because otherwise it would be kinda awkward for Janet. ApplesandOranges fucked around with this message at 11:25 on Feb 1, 2020 |
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Feb 1, 2020 11:23
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ApplesandOranges posted:Well, the test wouldn't work super well if he had all the knowledge of how it works. They could fiddle with his memories when he dies, I guess? I can't decide if it would be poignant for Human Michael to go through the test, get into the Good Place, and have them bring back his memories of being a fire squid and the Soul Squad, or just have him enjoy the paradise that he's earned without having to suddenly remember his four friends that are now gone. I imagine the former, because otherwise it would be kinda awkward for Janet. So he's going to have to die, do the test as a human then go to the good place and remember who he is? I dunno, it seems pointless. Why the hell didn't they fix the points, it's so unbelievably stupid.
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Feb 1, 2020 11:30
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Wow, just saw the ending. What a fantastic episode! My favourite of the entire show. A superb ending to a superb show, absolutely perfect.
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Feb 1, 2020 14:24
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Taear posted:Also sending Michael to Earth as a 72 year old seems harsh, I'm saying. I was totally expecting him to immediately get killed the moment he appeared on Earth. The_Doctor posted:Also Nick Offerman was credited as Nick Offerman. Should've been Ron Swanson.
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Feb 1, 2020 14:41
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Taear posted:They can't even visit Athens in the past, why would they go to other planets? It's the most limited rubbish afterlife ever. From a practical point of view it doesn’t really make sense to allow a bunch of dead people to come back to life, go to the past and then deal with them messing up earths timeline. There is nothing stopping them from visiting any place in the universe, for all intents and purposes it will be real.
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Feb 1, 2020 14:49
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Oasx posted:From a practical point of view it doesn’t really make sense to allow a bunch of dead people to come back to life, go to the past and then deal with them messing up earths timeline. It's the afterlife, they're not in literal Athens. Why can't they be in literal past Athens? It's just so limited
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Feb 1, 2020 14:51
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