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PostNouveau posted:The Judge's pop culture obsession isn't funny, and brings up questions about how pop culture can keep her entertained for so long and why she's so eager to erase all existence. Her obsession is essentially just with human art, and the question of why we now or ever made art is the kind of question without an answer besides making more art. Judge doesn't have human brain or our perception of time, so I'm not sure duration-based concerns are very applicable?
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Feb 2, 2020 00:29
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Wait why are people assuming tahani is the only human who ever gets to join the staff?
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Feb 2, 2020 00:31
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Taear posted:I really don't know what you mean, that's got nothing to do with what I've said. I know they restructured how it works, that doesn't have anything to do with when people arrive. It's all the afterlife, not just the bad or good place. What the hell? I think it is a product of the phenomenon where everything is so interconnected that in modern day real world everything you do affects others in a potentially negative manner. The people who were already in the Good Place were from pre-modern eras without social media, internet, global politics, etc. Those people were all zombified by the infinite pleasure of the afterlife and probably took the door shortly after it was created. Now we have them reviewing the people who were sent to the Bad Place under a broken points system as well as testing the incoming souls before sending them up to the Good Place. Given the vagueness of the time unit they've presented, it isn't clear how much time has passed but it sort of makes sense that in the as-infinite-as-you-want-it-to-be afterlife we are seeing more and more modern folks coming in a semi-linear fashion. Everyone before them was already tired, everyone after is still testing, and the reason we see all of their old friends is that in the afterlife you probably want to hang out with your pals. To tie it back into real time, the reason Michael was placed into current day happens for a couple reasons that I can think of. First is that we know Janet is able to perceive reality in four dimensions, and since she can exist and feel all time at the same time, she is able to teleport Michael to any time. As to why they specifically chose when they did, I think the first thing Michael says is a bit of a clue. He says "It's hot, but it's a dry heat" which puts him somewhere in the Southwest where it gets dry and hot seemingly all the time. Specifically he's in Arizona where his closest human friend and confidant existed before she died. He wanted to experience life the way the best folks he knew did, when they did. It isn't necessarily that he showed up in modern Arizona because he had to, more that he wanted to be there and then.
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Feb 2, 2020 00:32
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Malcolm Turnbeug posted:Actually tahini has simply been further entrapped in Samsara by her connections to this world ya dinks She more or less became a Mahayana-style bodhisattva while the others chose conventional Buddhahood.
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Feb 2, 2020 00:32
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The thing with Tahani's ending is that she functionally has become one with God or the closest to that in the context of the Good Place. Her path isn't in conflict with Eleanore's, but they are the same. They have transcended their mortal forms and taken on a new one.
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Feb 2, 2020 00:45
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Khanstant posted:Her obsession is essentially just with human art, and the question of why we now or ever made art is the kind of question without an answer besides making more art. Judge doesn't have human brain or our perception of time, so I'm not sure duration-based concerns are very applicable? Also a number of them are probably improv'd gags by Maya Rudolph
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Feb 2, 2020 02:12
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Malcolm Turnbeug posted:Actually tahini has simply been further entrapped in Samsara by her connections to this world ya dinks Nice try, bad Janet. A bodhisattva can cross to the other shore at any time but stays in Samsara to show others the way.
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Feb 2, 2020 02:39
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People really seen to be taking "What we owe to each other" to be "What you owe to me" Nobody is obligated to stick around on the off chance you need them for something
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Feb 2, 2020 03:25
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Every once in a while a show that's to good to exist shows up. This one top's that list. Really enjoyed the ending and was glad they had a concise vision that was executed without dragging the show out or cutting it short.
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Feb 2, 2020 03:33
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RBA Starblade posted:The weird thing is that the door doesn't need to exist because there's obviously more than one answer as Tahani showed and what she chose wasn't something they actually changed to allow That's not what I got out of it, to me the door was the choice that solidified every other possibility. Infinity is impossible to truly understand, it's just to big. The option of Infinity is fundamentally different then the assurance of it. The one thing that defines the human condition is choice, everything else is conditional. Without a choice, the Good Place wasn't human.
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Feb 2, 2020 03:39
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Azhais posted:People really seen to be taking "What we owe to each other" to be "What you owe to me" I think it's more like a credit union that we're all members of. I owe my mortgage repaid to every other member and they owe me theirs. Really, moral philosophy is just about financial obligations. I don't mean any of that.
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Feb 2, 2020 04:38
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Azhais posted:People really seen to be taking "What we owe to each other" to be "What you owe to me" No but under contractualism, the obligation that we have to each other isn't limited by time or the amount of good deeds we've already done.
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Feb 2, 2020 05:04
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Azhais posted:People really seen to be taking "What we owe to each other" to be "What you owe to me" Clearly sometimes what we owe to others is letting them leave. That doesn't change that choosing to end your existence when you aren't in chronic pain / terminally ill / etc rather than sticking around to contribute generally makes sense in the context of the moral argument of the show.
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Feb 2, 2020 05:18
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Literally Chidi's entire arc was becoming the kind of person who could ask his partner to let him put himself first, and do what he felt he needed to do. The moral of his character is that it is okay, good, and necessary to know your own needs and desires and to ask for others to respect them. And much of Eleanor's was becoming the kind of person who could let their partner go for the same reasons, with love and without resentment.
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Feb 2, 2020 05:39
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The lack of resentment might be related to the calendar though, yowza.
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Feb 2, 2020 05:40
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The Good Place has ruined TV. I'm watching a dumb TV show right now that could have had a deep analysis of whether or not criminality is in one's nature or comes from environmental factors. Instead it had the shallowest of references to the question, and then did the whole TV show thing (of purely being entertainment)
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Feb 2, 2020 06:25
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I interpreted the ending as being something akin to the story The Egg. Backed up by the wave analogy and Chidi's explanation, the door wasn't an ending of your existence, but a move onto the next form. That next form might well have no continuity of consciousness with your current one, but that's ok. Everyone's existence is the universe getting to know itself. Some have mentioned that there are still some things they haven't experienced, but that's ok. If everyone experienced all the possible things in all the possible ways then they would have all had the same experiences and lose individuality anyway.
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Feb 2, 2020 06:28
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The most interesting thing I found with the ending is that it could be interpreted that Eleanor finally felt complete after having a child. Helping others didn't give her the peace and finality that she suspected. It wasn't until she was able to give Michael life that she felt complete. I honestly don't even like the interpretation, and I don't think it was really intended, but...yeah... It's certainly there.
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Feb 2, 2020 06:38
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Caufman posted:Nice try, bad Janet. A bodhisattva can cross to the other shore at any time but stays in Samsara to show others the way. Actually in the end Bodhi chooses to swim out into the waves.
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Feb 2, 2020 06:41
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One small thing that I didn’t like about the finale was the joke that Brent was taking a long time to learn how to be a good person. It felt like a mean joke considering that the last time we saw him, he finally understood how much of an rear end in a top hat he had been, while the last time we saw Simone and John they were leaving a person to die.
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Feb 2, 2020 07:05
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I think an amount of ambiguity on this issue helps the end work, really. Again if you don’t think there is an afterlife or souls or any of that, you can read the ending as metaphor- Eleanor truly dying as we all must, but her doing good mattered and will subtly prod others to do good. If you do think there is (or might be) an afterlife, you can see this as Eleanor becoming something else- that having satisfied all her Earthly desires she becomes something transcendent. And honestly it just makes sense as an end to her story. Eleanor- or what she was- continues to make the world a little better because in the end that’s what we should do.
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Feb 2, 2020 07:07
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Ms Adequate posted:Literally Chidi's entire arc was becoming the kind of person who could ask his partner to let him put himself first, and do what he felt he needed to do. The moral of his character is that it is okay, good, and necessary to know your own needs and desires and to ask for others to respect them. And much of Eleanor's was becoming the kind of person who could let their partner go for the same reasons, with love and without resentment. That is an astoundingly concise and beautiful way to summarize their endings.
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Feb 2, 2020 07:12
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I’ve realised what I’ve been reminded of, and it’s the Star Trek Voyage episode ‘Death Wish’. The Q wanting to end his life because he’s done everything, been everywhere, and the universe holds no more secrets. Even being the scarecrow has lost its charm.
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Feb 2, 2020 08:13
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Ms Adequate posted:Literally Chidi's entire arc was becoming the kind of person who could ask his partner to let him put himself first, and do what he felt he needed to do. The moral of his character is that it is okay, good, and necessary to know your own needs and desires and to ask for others to respect them. And much of Eleanor's was becoming the kind of person who could let their partner go for the same reasons, with love and without resentment. Yeah, like so many complaints people are having about the door being selfish and leaving people behind are literally examined in the episode with the Chidi/Eleanor scenes.
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Feb 2, 2020 08:25
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Did all of us watch the same show?
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Feb 2, 2020 08:29
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Mr. Powers posted:I think it's more like a credit union that we're all members of. I owe my mortgage repaid to every other member and they owe me theirs. Really, moral philosophy is just about financial obligations. It's like social credits. Now let me tell you about attention marbles...
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Feb 2, 2020 08:39
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Oasx posted:One small thing that I didn’t like about the finale was the joke that Brent was taking a long time to learn how to be a good person. Oddly, I didn't find it as being mean spirited. I viewed it as assuring the viewer that even Brent is still trying to get better. It's acknowledging that "Yup we didn't forget about him." While reminding the viewer that improvement isn't a one time thing. You don't just simply have a moment of humility and empathy and being a good person is easy from then on. You have to learn and struggle and fail and fall back into bad habits, and try over and over. Brent taking a long time to get into the good place isn't mean spirited, it's showing that he wasn't a lost cause and his desire to change was genuine.
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Feb 2, 2020 09:18
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Gunthen posted:Really enjoyed the ending and was glad they had a concise vision that was executed without dragging the show out or cutting it short. Whereas I agree that the first two series had a good connection and good vision the third and fourth didn't. Especially the fourth, it's been all over the place.
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Feb 2, 2020 10:12
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Sudden Loud Noise posted:Oddly, I didn't find it as being mean spirited. I viewed it as assuring the viewer that even Brent is still trying to get better. It's acknowledging that "Yup we didn't forget about him." While reminding the viewer that improvement isn't a one time thing. You don't just simply have a moment of humility and empathy and being a good person is easy from then on. You have to learn and struggle and fail and fall back into bad habits, and try over and over. Brent taking a long time to get into the good place isn't mean spirited, it's showing that he wasn't a lost cause and his desire to change was genuine. But everyone goes through the system. Tahani's parents were terrible people and they suffered through the system like everyone else instead of being written off as Bad Place fodder, because that's the idea. I don't think the scene was mean spirited either, it's more of 'yeah this one's gonna take a while'.
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Feb 2, 2020 10:21
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Durham posted:I think it is a product of the phenomenon where everything is so interconnected that in modern day real world everything you do affects others in a potentially negative manner. The people who were already in the Good Place were from pre-modern eras without social media, internet, global politics, etc. Those people were all zombified by the infinite pleasure of the afterlife and probably took the door shortly after it was created. Now we have them reviewing the people who were sent to the Bad Place under a broken points system as well as testing the incoming souls before sending them up to the Good Place. Given the vagueness of the time unit they've presented, it isn't clear how much time has passed but it sort of makes sense that in the as-infinite-as-you-want-it-to-be afterlife we are seeing more and more modern folks coming in a semi-linear fashion. Everyone before them was already tired, everyone after is still testing, and the reason we see all of their old friends is that in the afterlife you probably want to hang out with your pals. You're not getting it though. Bearimy means that time works different in the afterlife. But at the same time it doesn't mean that because people arrive in the afterlife in a linear fashion. Hypatia has died before me in real time and arrives in the afterlife in real time (so before me) even though the afterlife in theory doesn't follow those same time rules. Athens is the present day and it's been 4000 bearimy but it's still the present day. Again I understand that they can't show the past or etc because it's expensive but at least act like it's possible. And explore the concept of time you've created instead of making it not make sense. Like if I could think "These people have been existing now for the birth of 60 universes it's a very long time" but right now I just can't because it doesn't really let us experience how time works for them.
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Feb 2, 2020 11:08
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Caufman posted:Nice try, bad Janet. A bodhisattva can cross to the other shore at any time but stays in Samsara to show others the way. I am actually super clueless about eastern philosophy and I’m glad these last few episodes had at least a couple of good concepts for me to explore and
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Feb 2, 2020 11:14
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I can't believe goons are still trying to analyze how Jeremy Bearimy works like they're Johnny Fiveaces. It was an obvious joke plot device which was created so that they could do whatever was most narratively appropriate without having to worry about whether it made sense in the timeline. In-universe, it's only fathomable by 17-dimensional beings or whatever, while out-of-universe, it allows the writers to tell the audience "don't think about it", like that scene from Austin Powers 2 where they look directly at the camera and tell you to stop overthinking it. We may not know how long 1000 Bearimys is but obviously the only important takeaway we need is that it's a very very long time. We don't know how long before Tahani's parents arrived, but the important thing is that Kamilah arrived first, and they haven't seen their parents in a long while.
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Feb 2, 2020 11:44
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Argue posted:I can't believe goons are still trying to analyze how Jeremy Bearimy works like they're Johnny Fiveaces. It was an obvious joke plot device which was created so that they could do whatever was most narratively appropriate without having to worry about whether it made sense in the timeline. In-universe, it's only fathomable by 17-dimensional beings or whatever, while out-of-universe, it allows the writers to tell the audience "don't think about it", like that scene from Austin Powers 2 where they look directly at the camera and tell you to stop overthinking it. We may not know how long 1000 Bearimys is but obviously the only important takeaway we need is that it's a very very long time. We don't know how long before Tahani's parents arrived, but the important thing is that Kamilah arrived first, and they haven't seen their parents in a long while. Yea, I can't do that. It's like the film "US" - once you start trying to explain stuff I want to know exactly how it works and if I can't then it ruins it for me because I'm constantly thinking of how it works. Especially when it feels so important to how the actual story works.
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Feb 2, 2020 11:47
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I think the Jeremy Bearimy thing works as a "don't think about it, time isn't that important to this story" in the episode it's introduced, but then the finale actually centres around the passage of time leading to inevitable self-annihilation, so it's a little at odds with the original purpose of the joke.
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Feb 2, 2020 12:50
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Not really. Barring memory wipes, time is always subjective and linear to the individual, and that's all that matters to the issues in the finale when it comes to reaching fulfillment.
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Feb 2, 2020 12:55
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I mean...one Bearimy is supposed to be the entirety of existence in a system of cyclical time, so there are actually a lot of questions to ask about what the protagonists' linear experiences are like. They presumably experience the future of humanity, meet people who were born centuries after they died, witness the heat death of the universe, etc. Do they feel like they've done everything they want to do because time is cyclical but their personal infinities are not? Have they witnessed the eventual extinction of the human race, and if so, how do they feel about that? Of course none of this is tackled because it's not the point. But the introduction of endless cyclical time as an intentionally vague and nonsensical gag, and then having the heroes go through thousands of Bearimies in the finale as a serious plot point, does make for a strange contrast that implies some of these questions.
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Feb 2, 2020 13:04
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MikeJF posted:Not really. Barring memory wipes, time is always subjective and linear to the individual, and that's all that matters to the issues in the finale when it comes to reaching fulfillment. Definitely really because they've done everything that they want to do, you know? That means it's taken time. And they've said that the people who've been in the Good Place have had their brains turn to goop because they've been they're so long and specifically focus on ones who entered a long time ago in real time. But time doesn't work the same, so why them? Android Blues posted:Of course none of this is tackled because it's not the point. But the introduction of endless cyclical time as an intentionally vague and nonsensical gag, and then having the heroes go through thousands of Bearimies in the finale as a serious plot point, does make for a strange contrast that implies some of these questions. Yea - and it sounded like at first they wanted to make it serious but decided it was too complicated to bother. But too much of the HOW of the story hangs off it for me. Taear fucked around with this message at 13:08 on Feb 2, 2020 |
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Feb 2, 2020 13:06
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Are you talking to the vague use of ‘bearimy’ as a discrete unit of time bc that really doesn’t need explaining. The original gag was a very funny way of addressing the fact it is impossible to write a coherent time travel story that addresses logical concerns fully and thoroughly. I can see not having found that a particularly satisfying way to deal with the afterlife/earth parallel timelines or whatever but ‘bearimy’ to describe the passing of time is a very different thing
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Feb 2, 2020 13:13
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Taear posted:Definitely really because they've done everything that they want to do, you know? That means it's taken time. Humans stopped getting into the good place hundreds and hundreds of years ago. It was a major plot point in season three that the system was broken. There weren't people in the good place who were alive in a time frame contemporary to the main cast.
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Feb 2, 2020 13:15
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Zerot posted:Humans stopped getting into the good place hundreds and hundreds of years ago. It was a major plot point in season three that the system was broken. There weren't people in the good place who were alive in a time frame contemporary to the main cast. God dammit I know that, I'm not talking about that at all. Hundreds and hundreds of years is OUR TIME but they don't have time like that in the afterlife, so either it's infinite time or people are entering there in our time. Hypatia has been in the afterlife for loads of beremies which is fine sure - but then how do new people enter the afterlife when hundreds of beremies has no relevance to real time but people also enter in real time? It doesn't fit and it makes it annoying to me. If it was like Narnia say where time just goes slower then sure okay. But it's not, time flows and new people enter in sequence in the same way they die in reality. So Hypatia arrived before Chidi arrived after Henry VIII and etc. Time is linear, but at the same time it's not. As I said earlier it feels like the afterlife in total is a theme park that has really defined and quite limiting rules, it's not very much of a paradise. Maybe 3000 beremies feels like 2 billion years (and therefore humanity is extinct) but honestly who knows and that makes it harder for me to kinda feel the story.
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Feb 2, 2020 13:31
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