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Taear posted:Hypatia has been in the afterlife for loads of beremies which is fine sure - but then how do new people enter the afterlife when hundreds of beremies has no relevance to real time but people also enter in real time? I don't think we know that people enter in real time. If you look at the Jeremy Bearimy drawing, it's a big convoluted loop. The experience of a person in the afterlife would be like the pencil drawing the name in script: a single, continuous line. But if you step outside that perspective, it doesn't reflect the human interpretation of time and experience at all. The amount of lead used to make the line doesn't reflect the space between the loops. Humans, like the pencil, can't conceive of the bigger picture. That's also the basis for the asides about the time knife. This isn't supposed to make total sense because we, as finite beings with imperfect perception, cannot actually fathom the idea. It's also a joke.
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Feb 2, 2020 13:47
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Under the danger of being rude, that's kinda on you for approaching a concept of Paradise and how time might flow there with a hard sci-fi brain. Of course it doesn't fit, it's loving PARADISE. Of course it's gonna seem limiting because it's a limited budget TV show trying to represent what eternal bliss might look like. To be a bit fair that's what happens when you have a show based around establishing and breaking rules to an afterlife, I guess. It's all fine and dandy until you try to tackle something as undefinable as Heaven and how one might experience it. A lot of people in the thread seem to be confused as to how someone would ever get tired of eternal happiness because...I mean, it is confusing, as is why perfect self-actualized beings might actually choose to stop being. I think you can take that as the message tho, what makes life good and beautiful is that it ends. It's why Eleanor's solution to the Good Place's problem is being able to move on eventually.
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Feb 2, 2020 13:50
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Dias posted:. I think you can take that as the message tho, what makes life good and beautiful is that it ends. It's why Eleanor's solution to the Good Place's problem is being able to move on eventually. I get that and I think it's a terrible terrible message.
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Feb 2, 2020 14:02
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Taear posted:I get that and I think it's a terrible terrible message. Again, that's on you. You fall on the exact opposite philosophical stance this series has regarding eternal life. It happens, it's not a flaw, philosophy doesn't have a right answer anyway.
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Feb 2, 2020 14:09
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Dias posted:Again, that's on you. You fall on the exact opposite philosophical stance this series has regarding eternal life. It happens, it's not a flaw, philosophy doesn't have a right answer anyway. To add a bit to this, basically every single philosophical element portrayed in this show could have a good-faith disagreement about whether the message is "terrible" or not. The show seems consistent about what it's trying to say, to me at least.
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Feb 2, 2020 14:18
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Dias posted:Again, that's on you. You fall on the exact opposite philosophical stance this series has regarding eternal life. It happens, it's not a flaw, philosophy doesn't have a right answer anyway. Yea I get that and I'm fine with it. But I still think the afterlife in the show is very limited and they don't explain how it works with people arriving linearly at the same time as having beremy as a unit of time.
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Feb 2, 2020 14:19
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Taear posted:Yea I get that and I'm fine with it. I think that loops back to what I said, it's hard to conflate physical and metaphysical approaches to time in a way that makes complete sense because it's literally impossible for us to grasp perceiving time in a non-linear way (especially considering a Bearimy stretches thru basically infinity before it loops around on itself). If that helps you rationalize it, I guess you could say the Good Place is the dot in the I, the place where "nothing ever occurs" and isn't behold to the loop, so you experience time in a small stretch of the Bearimy until you are done with your trial and you go there. Bearimys go by but you're never in the loop itself.
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Feb 2, 2020 14:31
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Oasx posted:One small thing that I didn’t like about the finale was the joke that Brent was taking a long time to learn how to be a good person. Brent had a brief moment of realization but that isn’t going to make him a good person in and of itself. They pointed out that the important thing was that he had become better by the end of the test even if he was still a long way from being good.
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Feb 2, 2020 16:31
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Promoted Pawn posted:Brent had a brief moment of realization but that isn’t going to make him a good person in and of itself. They pointed out that the important thing was that he had become better by the end of the test even if he was still a long way from being good. I thought he lost a point
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Feb 2, 2020 16:36
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Promoted Pawn posted:Brent had a brief moment of realization but that isn’t going to make him a good person in and of itself. I made my point poorly, what I meant was that since Brent was “cracked” in the seconds before the experiment ended, then it should be a lot easier to figure out how to make him a better person now that the system was worked out. Obviously it will still require a lot of work, the joke just felt a little out of place.
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Feb 2, 2020 17:53
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RBA Starblade posted:I thought he lost a point No, he was a bad person until the very end where his numbers skyrocketed but was just 2% away fron improvement Presumably if he'd had enough time to apologize he might have made it.
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Feb 2, 2020 19:42
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I thought it was odd because Brent was shown learning not to say the N-word or call Chidi "my brotha" while Simone didn't change at all - she pretended to go along with her "death hallucination" while gathering information about Eleanor and Michael. Then she was the one who was most adamant about leaving Brent in the hole
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Feb 2, 2020 19:47
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Taear posted:God dammit I know that, I'm not talking about that at all. Your posts suck and you’re missing the point of everything. Stop focusing on the things that don’t actually matter in the show.
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Feb 2, 2020 21:25
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Mordiceius posted:Your posts suck and you’re missing the point of everything. Stop focusing on the things that don’t actually matter in the show. It's what's important to me. All of that ruins the story, for me. The way they explain how things work is how the story works and if that falls apart then the story falls apart. Especially since for ages they're focusing on the mechanics of the points even though they just chuck that out and say "oh we'll sort it in the afterlife instead".
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Feb 2, 2020 21:39
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Trying to analyze a show about philosophical, abstract concepts in the same way you would nitpick a sci-fi space show is probably a bad idea. Bearimies were made so the characters of this imaginary place could quantify time as it passes differently from ours; they're just a plot tool to move the plot forward, not an intrinsically detailed made up language from Middle Earth
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Feb 2, 2020 21:43
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I legitimately don't know how to say this politely Taear: the things you're getting upset about aren't important to the story in the least and I cannot imagine caring about them
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Feb 2, 2020 21:44
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To add to the point that Bearimys don’t matter or they are a loop: Eleanor’s essence helps someone out in the 2010s. - I’m slightly annoyed the show comes to the conclusion that “Earth is hosed, let’s make up for it later”, but maybe even their essence retuning can’t make utopia happen on Earth.
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Feb 2, 2020 21:45
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It's just the way it works. It's... it's Jeremy Bearimy. I don't know what to tell you. That's the easiest way to describe it.
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Feb 2, 2020 21:56
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Nybble posted:To add to the point that Bearimys don’t matter or they are a loop: Eleanor’s essence helps someone out in the 2010s. That's one issue I did have with the show - when they realized that actually, there hasn't been a mistake or the Bad Place deliberately stealing Good Place-bound people, but rather Earth is now set up in such a fashion that we can't be "good people" (at least by the metrics used) because of the distant ramificaitons of our actions, I kind of assumed they would try to do something about that as well, either by changing the points system to account for it in some way, or by trying to change things for the living. I get why the test plan circumvents that issue in terms of getting points and still deciding more fairly and all that, but I did expect there would be at least an attempt to tell people on Earth "Hey poo poo's actually hosed dawgs, gotta fix things!" e; Aggro posted:That is an astoundingly concise and beautiful way to summarize their endings. Thank you so much, what a lovely thing to say! 
Ms Adequate fucked around with this message at 22:30 on Feb 2, 2020 |
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Feb 2, 2020 22:21
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Ignis posted:Trying to analyze a show about philosophical, abstract concepts in the same way you would nitpick a sci-fi space show is probably a bad idea. Bearimies were made so the characters of this imaginary place could quantify time as it passes differently from ours; they're just a plot tool to move the plot forward, not an intrinsically detailed made up language from Middle Earth I understand that it's a way to quantify time passing for them, but as I said - how do people enter the afterlife linearly if that's how time works? It IS a sci-fi show with a pretty neat sci fi story. That's how I see it and that's how I interpret it. Arist posted:I legitimately don't know how to say this politely Taear: the things you're getting upset about aren't important to the story in the least and I cannot imagine caring about them The entire story is "the afterlife is hosed because nobody has entered the good part of it since the 1450s" but the afterlife hasn't got time so it should mean people who died in 1310 are still coming to the good place right "now". Or right beremy.
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Feb 2, 2020 23:44
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So, here's a quick artistic take on Jeremy Bearimy.  This is the original drawing. The line above is how humans experience time on Earth: a nice rainbow. Now, if we overlay the human time rainbow on Jeremy Bearimy, we see that it is still a nice rainbow, but you're looking at it left to right, linearly. If you actually follow the path of Jeremy Bearimy, you find that it isn't a nice rainbow and it wiggles back and forth, ultimately looping with a backwards rainbow back to the beginning. This is what the bottom line is supposed to represent (artist's rendering). So, in the afterlife, our human minds don't understand Jeremy Bearimy, particularly the dot in the i. If you enter the afterlife at cyan, earth time, then you can pop up in about six different spots, with five being close together and one being on the return trip. Since the Bearimys are cyclical, not only are there six places to pop out in one, you could pop out in any Bearimy. This has been my effort post and effort drawing on Jeremy Bearimy. It makes complete sense and makes no sense at all. My explanation is as made up as how time works in the show, which is to say a total fabrication. Please do not take this seriously. E: Really I just wanted to make the pretty picture of rainbow Jeremy Bearimy, and in that facet: mission accomplished.
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Feb 3, 2020 00:03
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Taear posted:I understand that it's a way to quantify time passing for them, but as I said - how do people enter the afterlife linearly if that's how time works? This related to nothing but you should read Brandon Sanderson’s stuff because his brain works the same way as yours
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Feb 3, 2020 00:04
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PASS THE MASH posted:This related to nothing but you should read Brandon Sanderson’s stuff because his brain works the same way as yours I actually meant to say something about the difference between robust magic systems like he writes and plot magic systems like what gandalf does, and why stories that use the latter don't actually work for you if you want to pretend they're the former. I read an article about it but I can't remember where.
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Feb 3, 2020 00:51
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Taear posted:I understand that it's a way to quantify time passing for them, but as I said - how do people enter the afterlife linearly if that's how time works? The entire way it is explained in the show and on the podcast is that the passage of time in the afterlife and especially it's relationship to time on Earth simply doesn't make sense to us. It's not meant to, the show doesn't try to have it make sense, madness lies in trying to make it do so.
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Feb 3, 2020 01:27
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Taear posted:The entire story is "the afterlife is hosed because nobody has entered the good part of it since the 1450s" but the afterlife hasn't got time so it should mean people who died in 1310 are still coming to the good place right "now". Or right beremy. That's at best tangential to the plot and completely unimportant to the things the story is actually about. It's pointless to think about. It's irrelevant.
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Feb 3, 2020 01:34
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Arist is right. It's like obsessing over scientific accuracy in Doctor Who. It is not what that show is about or cares about and if you're focusing on that, you are not actually watching the show they made.
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Feb 3, 2020 02:21
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DoctorWhat posted:Arist is right. It's like obsessing over scientific accuracy in Doctor Who. It is not what that show is about or cares about and if you're focusing on that, you are not actually watching the show they made. Yeah, if you really want a SciFi technobabble style explanation then work one out that you like yourself that fits what was shown and just make that your head canon, you can even fit it in from Michael's explanation in the first episode that all the religions got a little bit right.
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Feb 3, 2020 03:20
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I was pleased to see they didn't chicken out and flee from the idea of impermanence as the natural state of being.
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Feb 3, 2020 03:25
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I'm pretty sure Chidi's response to Michael's explanation of Jeremy Bearimy was "That makes no sense whatever" so the show agrees with everyone in this thread.
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Feb 3, 2020 04:53
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Okay, here's how Jeremy Bearimy definitively, conclusively works according to scientific principles. Keep in mind though that some concepts are a bit untranslatable from higher being script. What we see as cursive writing saying "Jeremy Bearimy" is actually a projection into three dimensional space of a 17-dimensional curve that encompasses not only all time but all space. Now, you may be wondering, how did ⟊⟒⎍⌇ ☊⊑⍀⟟⌇⏁ for any ☊⍜⋔⟒ ⍜⋏ ⋔⏃⋏? This is obviously inconsistent with the ⟊⟒⍀⟒⋔⊬ ⏚⟒⏃⍀⟟⋔⊬, which makes it very difficult to reconcile with the ⟒⌰⟒⏃⋏⍜⍀. Of course, the reason that they never meet duplicates of each other whenever timelines cross is because of the Pauli exclusion principle, which surprisingly applies in the afterlife just as much as it does on earth. However, the ☊⊑⟟⎅⟟ doesn't ⏁⏃⊑⏃⋏⟟ on every ⟊⏃⌇⍜⋏ but simply makes a ⋔⟟☊⊑⏃⟒⌰ . Anyway, this is all to say that ⏁⊑⟒ ⌇⟒⍀⟟⟒⌇ ⎎⍜☊⎍⌇⟒⌇ ⍜⋏ ⟒⌰⟒⏃⋏⍜⍀ ⌇⊑⟒⌰⌰⌇⏁⍀⍜⌿ (☍⍀⟟⌇⏁⟒⋏ ⏚⟒⌰⌰), ⍙⊑⍜ ⍙⏃☍⟒⌇ ⎍⌿ ⟟⋏ ⏁⊑⟒ ⏃⎎⏁⟒⍀⌰⟟⎎⟒ ⏃⋏⎅ ⟟⌇ ⟟⋏⏁⍀⍜⎅⎍☊⟒⎅ ⏚⊬ ⋔⟟☊⊑⏃⟒⌰ (⏁⟒⎅ ⎅⏃⋏⌇⍜⋏) ⏁⍜ "⏁⊑⟒ ☌⍜⍜⎅ ⌿⌰⏃☊⟒", ⏃ ⊑⟟☌⊑⌰⊬ ⌇⟒⌰⟒☊⏁⟟⎐⟒ ⊑⟒⏃⎐⟒⋏-⌰⟟☍⟒ ⎍⏁⍜⌿⟟⏃ ⊑⟒ ⎅⟒⌇⟟☌⋏⟒⎅, ⏃⌇ ⏃ ⍀⟒⍙⏃⍀⎅ ⎎⍜⍀ ⊑⟒⍀ ⍀⟟☌⊑⏁⟒⍜⎍⌇ ⌰⟟⎎⟒. ⊑⍜⍙⟒⎐⟒⍀, ⌇⊑⟒ ⍀⟒⏃⌰⟟⋉⟒⌇ ⏁⊑⏃⏁ ⌇⊑⟒ ⍙⏃⌇ ⌇⟒⋏⏁ ⏁⊑⟒⍀⟒ ⏚⊬ ⋔⟟⌇⏁⏃☍⟒ ⏃⋏⎅ ⋔⎍⌇⏁ ⊑⟟⎅⟒ ⊑⟒⍀ Time Knife ⋔⍜⍀⏃⌰⌰⊬ ⟟⋔⌿⟒⍀⎎⟒☊⏁ ⏚⟒⊑⏃⎐⟟⍜⍀ ⍙⊑⟟⌰⟒ ⏁⍀⊬⟟⋏☌ ⏁⍜ ⏚⟒☊⍜⋔⟒ ⏃ ⏚⟒⏁⏁⟒⍀ ⏃⋏⎅ ⋔⍜⍀⟒ ⟒⏁⊑⟟☊⏃⌰ ⌿⟒⍀⌇⍜⋏. ⍙⟟⌰⌰⟟⏃⋔ ⟊⏃☊☍⌇⍜⋏ ⊑⏃⍀⌿⟒⍀, ⟊⏃⋔⟒⟒⌰⏃ ⟊⏃⋔⟟⌰, ⏃⋏⎅ ⋔⏃⋏⋏⊬ ⟊⏃☊⟟⋏⏁⍜ ☊⍜-⌇⏁⏃⍀ ⏃⌇ ⍜⏁⊑⟒⍀ ⍀⟒⌇⟟⎅⟒⋏⏁⌇ ⍜⎎ "⏁⊑⟒ ☌⍜⍜⎅ ⌿⌰⏃☊⟒", ⏁⍜☌⟒⏁⊑⟒⍀ ⍙⟟⏁⊑ ⎅'⏃⍀☊⊬ ☊⏃⍀⎅⟒⋏ ⏃⌇ ⟊⏃⋏⟒⏁: ⚌. ⟟⋔⏃☌⟟⋏⟒ ⚍. ⎎⍜⎍⍀ ⏚⏃⌰⌰⌇ ⚎. ⍜⋏ ⏁⊑⟒ ⟒⎅☌⟒ ⚏. ⍜⎎ ⏃ ☊⌰⟟⎎⎎ There you have it, a complete scientific explanation of how the timeline works, which is thoroughly consistent with what seems, to the human experience, to be illogical time travel rules made up for a TV show.
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Feb 3, 2020 05:00
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Argue posted:Anyway, this is all to say that ⏁⊑⟒ ⌇⟒⍀⟟⟒⌇ ⎎⍜☊⎍⌇⟒⌇ ⍜⋏ ⟒⌰⟒⏃⋏⍜⍀ ⌇⊑⟒⌰⌰⌇⏁⍀⍜⌿ (☍⍀⟟⌇⏁⟒⋏ ⏚⟒⌰⌰), ⍙⊑⍜ ⍙⏃☍⟒⌇ ⎍⌿ ⟟⋏ ⏁⊑⟒ ⏃⎎⏁⟒⍀⌰⟟⎎⟒ ⏃⋏⎅ ⟟⌇ ⟟⋏⏁⍀⍜⎅⎍☊⟒⎅ ⏚⊬ ⋔⟟☊⊑⏃⟒⌰ (⏁⟒⎅ ⎅⏃⋏⌇⍜⋏) ⏁⍜ "⏁⊑⟒ ☌⍜⍜⎅ ⌿⌰⏃☊⟒", ⏃ ⊑⟟☌⊑⌰⊬ ⌇⟒⌰⟒☊⏁⟟⎐⟒ ⊑⟒⏃⎐⟒⋏-⌰⟟☍⟒ ⎍⏁⍜⌿⟟⏃ ⊑⟒ ⎅⟒⌇⟟☌⋏⟒⎅, ⏃⌇ ⏃ ⍀⟒⍙⏃⍀⎅ ⎎⍜⍀ ⊑⟒⍀ ⍀⟟☌⊑⏁⟒⍜⎍⌇ ⌰⟟⎎⟒. ⊑⍜⍙⟒⎐⟒⍀, ⌇⊑⟒ ⍀⟒⏃⌰⟟⋉⟒⌇ ⏁⊑⏃⏁ ⌇⊑⟒ ⍙⏃⌇ ⌇⟒⋏⏁ ⏁⊑⟒⍀⟒ ⏚⊬ ⋔⟟⌇⏁⏃☍⟒ ⏃⋏⎅ ⋔⎍⌇⏁ ⊑⟟⎅⟒ ⊑⟒⍀ Time Knife ⋔⍜⍀⏃⌰⌰⊬ ⟟⋔⌿⟒⍀⎎⟒☊⏁ ⏚⟒⊑⏃⎐⟟⍜⍀ ⍙⊑⟟⌰⟒ ⏁⍀⊬⟟⋏☌ ⏁⍜ ⏚⟒☊⍜⋔⟒ ⏃ ⏚⟒⏁⏁⟒⍀ ⏃⋏⎅ ⋔⍜⍀⟒ ⟒⏁⊑⟟☊⏃⌰ ⌿⟒⍀⌇⍜⋏. ⍙⟟⌰⌰⟟⏃⋔ ⟊⏃☊☍⌇⍜⋏ ⊑⏃⍀⌿⟒⍀, ⟊⏃⋔⟒⟒⌰⏃ ⟊⏃⋔⟟⌰, ⏃⋏⎅ ⋔⏃⋏⋏⊬ ⟊⏃☊⟟⋏⏁⍜ ☊⍜-⌇⏁⏃⍀ ⏃⌇ ⍜⏁⊑⟒⍀ ⍀⟒⌇⟟⎅⟒⋏⏁⌇ ⍜⎎ "⏁⊑⟒ ☌⍜⍜⎅ ⌿⌰⏃☊⟒", ⏁⍜☌⟒⏁⊑⟒⍀ ⍙⟟⏁⊑ ⎅'⏃⍀☊⊬ ☊⏃⍀⎅⟒⋏ ⏃⌇ ⟊⏃⋏⟒⏁: We all know how the time knife works, Argue.
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Feb 3, 2020 05:58
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Reading around, I feel like too many people are interpreting Jeremy Bearimys as something akin to straight-up linear years (though kinda not helped by the show's denoting the passage of time with them) when they've been explicitly stated to be not that. For all we know, the crew lived through not just eternity but several eternities doing literally all there is to do in the universe before throwing themselves into the ol' soul mulcher
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Feb 3, 2020 06:03
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Hell is other Good Place viewers.
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Feb 3, 2020 06:17
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The Bad Place was the Jeremy Bearimy discussion we had along the way.
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Feb 3, 2020 07:36
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Really enjoyed the finale, I think the show overall has been very strong and I'm glad it's done. I was to be honest expecting the frog guy to be allowed to retire/die or whatever as the excitement of the frogs wears off. Given that the whole premise of the episode was people deciding to go once living has lost it's zest, it was weird to focus on a character growing gradually bored of what they loved most and not resolving it properly (presumably he will eventually grow tired of live frogs as well). It could hardly have been more explicit that you aren't supposed to care about what Jearimy Bearimy means or how time works in the show. It's completely and utterly irrelevant, and I'm honestly sad for people who can't accept it and enjoy the show. I mean I get it, nitpicking things is fun but the cosmology of the show or whatever has always existed to explore the characters and not the other way around.
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Feb 3, 2020 12:25
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I can’t help but wonder where the Good Place architects/thermal vest con artists went after ditching Michael.
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Feb 3, 2020 12:39
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The_Doctor posted:I can’t help but wonder where the Good Place architects/thermal vest con artists went after ditching Michael. Just like humans, after a long night of frustration and failure, they go to IHOP.
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Feb 3, 2020 14:27
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Did someone who worked on the show ever confirm that the Good Place committee were meant to be establishment liberals/Democrats with decorum brain poisoning? Just noticed that they were unable to provide paradise because they couldn't think outside the parameters of the status quo which is pretty fitting if so.
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Feb 3, 2020 14:35
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Jables88 posted:Did someone who worked on the show ever confirm that the Good Place committee were meant to be establishment liberals/Democrats with decorum brain poisoning? Yes, several times in the podcast. The script notes for their first appearance described them as ‘Vermont’.
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Feb 3, 2020 14:42
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In the second to last podcast they however state that all of this is due to the state of the good place and them wanting out (which is why they trick Michael)
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Feb 3, 2020 14:55
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