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SirSamVimes posted:Definitely switch to Zin, yell the gospel at people until they're confused/paralysed and then shank them. Gonna ask you really, really nicely to stop leaving ghosts that chain cast confuse. Thank you
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Feb 5, 2020 06:25
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I wouldn't have thought a Lava Orc archaeologist of Yred wielding the scythe Finisher would be viable, but it was! At least for three runes. Zot was a bit rough and all my undead buddies died, but I managed to escape with the orb. My strategy for everything up to Zot was a zombie snowball and it worked. By midgame I was rarely radiating heat, and even when I did, the good undead could shrug it off and the zombie fodder were expendable.
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Feb 5, 2020 06:42
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Still working on the pledge fixes for Spiteful (and potentially Angel of Justice). My opinion on Malmutate remains: permanent damage inflicted by enemies is a garbage mechanic for the type of game that Dungeon Crawl is, especially if it requires using a consumable to recover. I still dislike that rot is a mechanic but I don't encounter it enough for it to bother me. I may give cacodemons the shining star temp mut ability to fix their bug since I can't think of a good combo to keep the corrosion with dig, but I'm not sure if that could make Pan/Dis easier (the shining star ability mutates everything in LoS, which debuffs monsters). When I tried the temp muts with orbs of fire, they almost always faded immediately when you killed the OOF so it only punished running away and I didn't like that, so if stat drain isn't liked I would prefer another alternative. Mnoleg can still mutate on melee hit since I didn't want to make him easier replacing it and I can put up with a single encounter in the entire game having something that pisses me off. SirSamVimes posted:Also while Iskenderun's Undoing is extremely cool, I would like it to stop crashing my game. Can you recreate what makes it crash?
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Feb 5, 2020 13:09
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Replace malmute on OOF with an ability that inflicts a god's penance/ wrath effect on you
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Feb 5, 2020 15:23
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Araganzar posted:I never seem to get fists of thunder or singing sword. Get Infestation next time, it's a game changer for extended. You and FK are doing great work. Thanks for making this game interesting and fun. Love to see you guys adding things all the time. Regarding Demonspawn: I've always hated the "kill urself" mutations and typically just fled the dungeon and re-rolled when one of them manifested early enough. Anything that would stop me or other players from groaning and being tempted to just restart the character is a big win in my book. FulsomFrank fucked around with this message at 15:46 on Feb 5, 2020 |
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Feb 5, 2020 15:35
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If it wasn't such a gently caress-off huge undertaking, I would honestly say that mutations in general could do with a rework. Anyone here play Cataclysm: Dark Days Ahead? I really like that game's mutation system, where it has different lines of mutations that are thematically grouped together into things such as "become more like an insect" or "develop the physical attributes of a cephalopod," but it's a really complex system that grew out of over ten years of development and it's not something you can just move over wholesale, although it's just better than Crawl's mutations in every sense.
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Feb 5, 2020 15:51
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Add CBMs
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Feb 5, 2020 16:27
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World Famous W posted:Add CBMs This man should be listened to. Give me biomummies FK.
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Feb 5, 2020 18:03
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How about make Malmutate have a timer of X number of turns before it manifests, and if you kill the creature that cast it on you first, it doesn't stick. This way it still effects your tactics when one of those monsters appears, but gives you a good chance to avoid it.
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Feb 5, 2020 18:47
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tylertfb posted:How about make Malmutate have a timer of X number of turns before it manifests, and if you kill the creature that cast it on you first, it doesn't stick. This way it still effects your tactics when one of those monsters appears, but gives you a good chance to avoid it. how would you tell which creature that is? it's difficult enough to find what's entangling you sometimes, and that has to be directly adjacent to you, not smite targeted.
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Feb 5, 2020 18:49
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make a monster that has Bonmutate and gives you permanent good mutations while you fight it and then make it otherwise the most disgustingly dangerous and horrible thing to fight
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Feb 5, 2020 18:52
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cock hero flux posted:the most disgustingly dangerous and horrible thing to fight Ah, so it has malmutate too!
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Feb 5, 2020 19:00
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cock hero flux posted:make a monster that has Bonmutate and gives you permanent good mutations while you fight it and then make it otherwise the most disgustingly dangerous and horrible thing to fight have you seriously never encountered one of the pan lords with a cute model whose randomly generated text is "is always sad and lonely" and then you just want to take it home and make it your pet forever
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Feb 5, 2020 19:00
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What's a good god choice for a GnAc that got Bloodbane from the box and just found a +10 randart plate armor (str+5) . Chei for full-armor casting? Is Ash pointless on a gnoll? Gozag is my go-to lately but I'd like to branch out.
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Feb 5, 2020 19:30
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Yeah, pretty pointless. One of the biggest advantages of Ash is to shift XP between your skills and gnolls just don't benefit from that at all. I've never really played Chei, but if SamSirVimes at the top of the page can be believed, it synergizes well with gnolls.
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Feb 5, 2020 19:34
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Thanks for the Zin advice, that worked pretty well and was an easy transition. Ended up getting blasted by a Magma Gargoyle on a fire themed level, bolt of magma is rough with no fire resist.
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Feb 5, 2020 19:43
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My experience with gnolls is that their broad, generic skillset encourages you to pick a broad, generic god, since you're not really going to be a peak blaster or a peak melee blender, nor are you going to be able to focus up invocations. Oka's fine, Makhleb is okay, Chei is okay, etc. Gozag just kind of works really good for everyone, and your inability to focus any one skillset doesn't really matter to them. All you really need to be mindful of is that gnolls are sort of anti-synergetic with many of the gods. Ru can lock you out of options if the floor gifts you something nice, Vehu is okay but you're not going to really be able to rely totally on blasting spells, at least not until well into extended, Trog locks you out of spells, the good gods have some restrictions on your behavior that can lock you out of options, etc. Maybe I'm just over-cautious about leaning into the preferred gnoll playstyle of cosplaying as a Nethack character who needs a backpack stuffed full of answers, but I'm incredibly leery of the idea of locking off options for the midgame and early lategame.
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Feb 5, 2020 21:00
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Is it just me or does that seem to a bit of a systemic problem with many of the newer god designs? A bunch of them seem to cost you as much in the way of options as they give you, which leaves you with a god that can either be played in one particular way or not at all.
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Feb 5, 2020 21:11
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Eh, it's systemic of the old ones too. Conducts are a thing for RL gods. If anything, there's too many non-conduct gods still floating about. Like how the hell does your playstyle change when you go Makleb? Not to mention they standardized all piety gain which is a crime against fluff.
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Feb 5, 2020 21:16
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I miss praying over bodies/altars.
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Feb 5, 2020 21:19
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SirSamVimes posted:I miss praying over bodies/altars. Newer players won't understand the absolute and heinous LIE that is this post
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Feb 5, 2020 21:21
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praying over the bodies of your dead followers as a beogh orc was cool as poo poo everything else was mostly just tedious
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Feb 5, 2020 21:30
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Serephina posted:Eh, it's systemic of the old ones too. Conducts are a thing for RL gods.
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Feb 5, 2020 21:36
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Cardiovorax posted:I guess many of the newer ones just feel a lot more strict and punishing to me. Trog was always a real one-note god because his conduct cuts you off from so many options and most of the new gods seem to lean far more into his direction than in that of gods like classic Sif Muna or Makhleb, which were not always useful to your playstyle, but least also never hurt you to have. gods should lock you off from options. That's like, the point of them: gods are always the same. They're reliable. I think not having a god should be a viable option rather than some kind of challenge run. Every god should lock you out of at least a few options in exchange for giving you guaranteed benefits. If you don't like it, be an atheist. The gods that lack conducts are also the gods that are just super boring. Like, what is Mahkleb? He's basically just glorified lifesteal and 2 free spells. Sif Muna might as well be a loving library card. They're dull. cock hero flux fucked around with this message at 21:57 on Feb 5, 2020 |
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Feb 5, 2020 21:55
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Well, glad that you like that kind of thing. I generally don't. Not using a god is just intentionally gimping yourself, but currently, too many of them feel like they're trying to sneak conventional, restrictive character classes back in through the back door.There's a ton of gods I categorically never touch because they cripple everything except for very specific playstyles that I don't want to use and are no good for any other kind of character. That doesn't seem to me like it's a great idea either. Mind you, this isn't necessarily a problem only with the newer gods. Elyvilon has always been this weird gimmick run god that you only use when you want a particular challenge. I just think there's some conflicting design philosophies at work there and it's not always working so well. Cardiovorax fucked around with this message at 22:16 on Feb 5, 2020 |
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Feb 5, 2020 22:09
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Cardiovorax posted:Yeah, pretty pointless. One of the biggest advantages of Ash is to shift XP between your skills and gnolls just don't benefit from that at all. I've never really played Chei, but if SamSirVimes at the top of the page can be believed, it synergizes well with gnolls. Oka and Ash both do a great job of overcoming the skill deficit, going into your first rune with 15-17 skills instead of 10-12 is quite significant. I rarely use the xp transfer ability, maybe in extended to swap from a shield or get an L8-L9 spell online faster. It's definitely hardly a factor in a 3-5 rune win. Win rates support +skill as being pretty advantageous, it's only pointless if you go Mace&Flail! These gods also are good in that they don't depend on Invocations skill. code:gleem posted:gleem: 973 games for * (won gn recent): 205x Cheibriados, 153x Okawaru, 143x Ashenzari, 103x Gozag, 48x Sif Muna, 38x Vehumet, 30x Makhleb, 28x The Shining One, 25x Nemelex Xobeh, 20x Zin, 20x Lugonu, 18x Trog, 17x Kikubaaqudgha, 17x Uskayaw, 15x Xom, 15x Yredelemnul, 13x Hepliaklqana, 12x Ru, 11x Wu Jian, 11x Fedhas, 10x Dithmenos, 10x Qazlal, 7x Jiyva, 2x Elyvilon, 2x Chei is great for gnolls since it lets them cast in armor and +15 omnistats plays well with +6/+8 omniskills. Extended really only Chei is great, if you look at wins with more than 6 runes everyone pales compared to Chei and Gozag. code:gloom posted:gleem: 261 games for * (won gn recent urune>6): 90x Cheibriados, 40x Gozag, 36x Ashenzari, 19x The Shining One, 14x Vehumet, 13x Sif Muna, 10x Makhleb, 9x Zin, 9x Okawaru, 6x Uskayaw, 4x Kikubaaqudgha, 2x, 2x Xom, 2x Lugonu, Qazlal, Ru, Wu Jian, Hepliaklqana, Jiyva
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Feb 5, 2020 22:10
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cock hero flux posted:gods should lock you off from options. That's like, the point of them: gods are always the same. They're reliable. I think not having a god should be a viable option rather than some kind of challenge run. Every god should lock you out of at least a few options in exchange for giving you guaranteed benefits. If you don't like it, be an atheist. Your race and your god are the main things that differentiate your character from others, but I agree we could have another option and God conducts could certainly be more interesting. Idea: Demigod is no longer a race. It's a godless option that gives you bonus stat growth, +10% hp at *, +MP at 3*, +MR at 5* in return for a -1 on all skill apts including experience. If you decide to give up on your own godhood and worship you lose the divine abilities granting MR and HP/MP but you keep the stat growth and you don't get skill points back when your apts are adjusted back up. Cardiovorax posted:Well, glad that you like that kind of thing. I generally don't. Not using a god is just intentionally gimping yourself, but currently, too many of them feel like they're trying to sneak conventional, restrictive character classes back in through the back door.There's a ton of gods I categorically never touch because they cripple everything except for very specific playstyles that I don't want to use and are no good for any other kind of character. That doesn't seem to me like it's a great idea either. I'd challenge the notion that you have to give up more than you get for any god, I think this is categorically false. There's a point to be made on play styles but I think your position here is a bit extended. I'd like to understand what specific play styles you're being shoehorned into unless you are talking about very broad categories like "stabber" or "pure caster". I'd rather add new gods for other play styles like the Hunt God than significantly change this. Long-term more play styles should be viable but I don't really have an issue with "carry" gods for certain ones.
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Feb 5, 2020 22:39
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Cardiovorax posted:Well, glad that you like that kind of thing. I generally don't. Not using a god is just intentionally gimping yourself, but currently, too many of them feel like they're trying to sneak conventional, restrictive character classes back in through the back door.There's a ton of gods I categorically never touch because they cripple everything except for very specific playstyles that I don't want to use and are no good for any other kind of character. That doesn't seem to me like it's a great idea either. the nice thing is that the game contains both of them, so I can play the fun gods that change the way I play the game and you can play the gods that are literally just a passive buff and 2 skills
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Feb 5, 2020 23:03
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I'm 100% of the opinion that Ash on a Gnoll is something that someone thought up of on paper, before finding out that there are nowhere near enough loving scrolls to swap gear around midgame, ie the entire point of playing a Gnoll.
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Feb 6, 2020 03:53
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Serephina posted:I'm 100% of the opinion that Ash on a Gnoll is something that someone thought up of on paper, before finding out that there are nowhere near enough loving scrolls to swap gear around midgame, ie the entire point of playing a Gnoll. Yeah I'm not saying it's not a huge pain. Really it would be nice if early on you could curse or uncurse something for a significant amount of drain, seems appropriate, sucking your xp into the item....
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Feb 6, 2020 05:01
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Araganzar posted:Yeah I'm not saying it's not a huge pain. Really it would be nice if early on you could curse or uncurse something for a significant amount of drain, seems appropriate, sucking your xp into the item.... Given the way skill boost works, curse for free and uncurse for drain. Then can achieve a goal from vanilla - remove ?rc and randomly cursed items. :|
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Feb 6, 2020 05:49
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Araganzar posted:I'd challenge the notion that you have to give up more than you get for any god, I think this is categorically false. Maybe I'm just not creative enough to make the best of it, though, so don't mind me.
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Feb 6, 2020 15:29
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Cardiovorax posted:Well, I did ask if anyone else ever feels that way, but since it seems no one really does, maybe it's just a me thing. I just look at gods like Jiyva sometimes and wonder "what would you ever use that for." It's a neat idea, but it seems to lack applicability for many situations. The general theory is Slimify is ungodly strong and Jiyva is a free rune (and loot if you are fast) so you only have to clear the 2 lair branches. Not sure if still true but for a while Jiyva was the highest win % among goodplayers (10 wins) that made it to Lair. Great for a Troll who doesn't need a lot of gear to win or a Spriggan that struggles to kill high AC/HP monsters. Offers constant healing to Vs and DD as well as undead races. But I basically like loot a lot, maybe more than winning, so I'm in your corner here. The couple of times I've tried a Slime Apostle or found a D1-D2 Jiyva altar have been absolutely horrible. You think "hey slimes don't eat stuff in shops" then you realize you have 69 gold and you're on Lair 2. I tend to think of Jiyva as an "experience diversity" diety that offers a different take on the game. Also Jiyva is Not Very Good in extended as slimify doesn't work on demonic holiness. The only real reason is to fix a horrible mutation set which is quite a bit less likely to occur in Gooncrawl.
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Feb 6, 2020 17:26
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Araganzar posted:The general theory is Slimify is ungodly strong and Jiyva is a free rune (and loot if you are fast) so you only have to clear the 2 lair branches. Not sure if still true but for a while Jiyva was the highest win % among goodplayers (10 wins) that made it to Lair. Great for a Troll who doesn't need a lot of gear to win or a Spriggan that struggles to kill high AC/HP monsters. Offers constant healing to Vs and DD as well as undead races. Pure observation bias on my behalf but the last couple of games I I've cleared the basement of Slime, the loot has been atrocious. In general my luck has been pretty bad and I'm more likely to find something half decent on the ground than somewhere like Vault:5 or Tomb.
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Feb 6, 2020 17:48
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Araganzar posted:But I basically like loot a lot, maybe more than winning, so I'm in your corner here. The couple of times I've tried a Slime Apostle or found a D1-D2 Jiyva altar have been absolutely horrible. You think "hey slimes don't eat stuff in shops" then you realize you have 69 gold and you're on Lair 2. I tend to think of Jiyva as an "experience diversity" diety that offers a different take on the game. It's not always signposted very well which of these is which, though, and while I really enjoy the idea of having massively gameplay-changing features like that, I think it might be worth thinking about where in the game that sort of thing really belongs. We are already implementing a completely new Challenge Mode feature anyway, so I would at least like to make the suggestion that alternative playstyles like Jiyva might fit with that much better than the current method of just rolling it all into the god mechanic does.
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Feb 6, 2020 17:55
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FulsomFrank posted:Pure observation bias on my behalf but the last couple of games I I've cleared the basement of Slime, the loot has been atrocious. In general my luck has been pretty bad and I'm more likely to find something half decent on the ground than somewhere like Vault:5 or Tomb. Counterpoint: Elf:3. Part of the issue with, like, V:5, Tomb, or Slime is that the high number of loot rolls is generally offset by the fact that by the time you can clear them, you probably have a viable loadout for beating the game, so the loot tends not to be all that exciting (this is doubly true of Tomb, which is often the very last thing I do in any Extended run, often even after I've had my fill of Zig-running, which in turn is sometimes stopped specifically by the appearance of a nasty Tomb floor). I would argue that in terms of loot value in relative terms, Crypt, Orc, and Elf finales are usually much more exciting, and are decent midgame goals you can stretch your luck for and still win (potentially with some challenge).
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Feb 6, 2020 20:04
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I don't get why everyone's terrified of Tomb, it's completely trivialised by Silence which is what, a level 5 spell? And if your offense comes from spellcasting yourself, you probably have access to lichform which trivialises it even harder.
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Feb 6, 2020 21:17
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SirSamVimes posted:I don't get why everyone's terrified of Tomb, it's completely trivialised by Silence which is what, a level 5 spell? And if your offense comes from spellcasting yourself, you probably have access to lichform which trivialises it even harder. SirSamVimes posted:Well, it turns out that a) daevas can smite while silenced b) silence can't be canceled like other buffs. Rip my ridiculous gnac, effortlessly killed the seraph then died in Zin's temple. And there's monsters specifically to deal the undead like the Ushabti and Bennu. Sage Grimm fucked around with this message at 21:42 on Feb 6, 2020 |
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Feb 6, 2020 21:40
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Touche, but the thing that hosed me is that Silence didn't shut down the Daevas whereas it shuts down literally everything short of death curses in Tomb. edit oh, and the death scarabs are kinda dangerous too with the slow.
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Feb 6, 2020 21:42
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Fights tend to drag on longer than the Silence endures, such that the radius of effect is small enough that those spellcasters can cast spells again while you're incapable of doing so. You also can't rely on scrolls while Silenced so there goes Blink and Teleport.
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Feb 6, 2020 21:45
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