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If there's just a singular vote leader then it's easier for scum (lurking or otherwise) to just say "I'm not going to be around for deadline, voting the vote leader, peace". Forcing a tie means people have to actually make opinions on them. I think Mega is still scum (and I've been thinking it more as he's misrepresented my casework). I do have secondary reads in Hunt and Dragon but neither are in anyone's sights right now so I'm probably going to save them for day 2.
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Feb 13, 2020 17:21
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Monathin posted:I mean lurkers need to be taken care of but this is still D1, Bif. A long D1, but still. you brought up the GGN example... that one was so especially painful because of the mason mechanics, which made people inherently riskier to lunch if you weren't aware of their master status. Your swing to GGN was so rapid at the last minute that it allowed no time to confirm this status. That does not apply in this game. Also you passed up Hal who was a candidate with loads of good discussion and vote movement around him all day. In this game, at this point, the disparity between activity on lurker and active-poster cases isn't as wide yet. For example, there has been activity to analyse around Hunt where I mentioned him and cased him harder based on his lack of strong reaction. There has been the activity of Dragonatrix diving right in to echo my vote. There has also been more time allowed to Hunt and ICR to react and respond just in case they are town. Again, this game's situation seems wildly different.
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Feb 13, 2020 17:21
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I mean, there's definitely some obvious differences, but the point is I want information. The current vote leaders are Mega (gets us a lot of information, and I think is scummy) vs Iron Chef (who I don't have a read on at all, and whose lack of posts will get us little to no info.) Hunt and Dragon currently on the vote list. If there is momentum and people want to vote them, I've made my stance on them clear, but I'm going to leave my vote on the vote leader until something else I agree with shows itself.
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Feb 13, 2020 17:25
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Monathin posted:Hunt and Dragon currently aren't on the vote list. god fuckin maf edit
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Feb 13, 2020 17:26
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So, real talk outside of the game real quick: the game is more fun when people are posting. Lurkers make the game less fun, period. Eliminating lurkers increases the game engagement levels, and I advocate for both sides to eliminate lurkers when it's not a horrible move for them to do so. Gane talk: Mona, I moved from Mega, to Hunt, something you said you would be okay with if it happened, and you yelled at me for it.
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Feb 13, 2020 17:27
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Amnistar posted:Fair enough. I dont have ramen in my sights right now because they werent active in the mechanics chat mid day yesterday. I can reread them when I get home in a few hours. ICR sure made his contribution to mechanics chat count though! While Mona and others have pointed out that mechanics chat can be a way to avoid scumhunting and that is true, I think people like him and especially Steak are forgetting that this isn't some average night action bingo where you're basing your case off dodgy speculation of who has what ability, or on trusting reports from people who could be fabricating them. In games like this, with a big cool central mechanic that can benefit from town coordination and cooperation to plan strategy, analysing the way people contribute to that discussion is valuable and meaningful content, just as valid as analysing how well people engage and contribute to the other main town discussion... who to lunch.
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Feb 13, 2020 17:28
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Monathin posted:god fuckin maf edit ...teach ne to preview.
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Feb 13, 2020 17:29
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Also, no idea if the role exists or not, but I could see some kind of investigative role that tells us who worked on what project. Forcing players to commit to an action that they might be checked on later could be beneficial.
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Feb 13, 2020 17:33
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Amnistar posted:Also, no idea if the role exists or not, but I could see some kind of investigative role that tells us who worked on what project. Forcing players to commit to an action that they might be checked on later could be beneficial. haha, like the train car cop I brought up the example of Shine IV because that was also a game with an interesting daily gimmick mechanic. The setting of game took place on a train, and each night, along with their standard actions, people had to submit a choice for which train car they would move to. Each car had different potential mechanical benefits. In the absence of a standard alignment cop, there was an investigative role that could look at a single train car to see who all was on it that night. I forget how exactly it managed to catch one scum, but it did and the scum made sure to kill that role off right quick. Analysing where people were supposed to be did turn out to be highly valuable.
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Feb 13, 2020 17:40
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another thing from Shine IV that I hope will be another fun parallel... it was my most successful town game ever, but mostly because I stuck hard to grilling lurkers who were fairly consistently scum. Most players love having roles and mechanics to sink their teeth into and drive discussion, instead of relying only on casing through social reads. Especially in the start of the game. A game with a big cool central mechanic to plan and debate about from the start provides a very easy way to immediately engage. But if you're scum, you need to weigh your engagement and need the look townie against the desire to try and turn town towards bad choices if possible. It adds a whole nother level of pressure and a whole nother aspect to the game for people to grill you on. So I believe players who still hardcore lurk, instead of engaging in a game like this, are more likely to be scum than lurkers in an average game.
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Feb 13, 2020 17:54
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Bifauxnen posted:uggggggh KB help me out here, I always hate this argument, lurkers gotta get voted for too are you talking about the lurker gun that you consistently defended me for not using despite pressure to do so? it really feels like your shade on me is coming from a disingenuous place, and the reason you won't respond to my casing is that ignoring it will make it go away, and engaging would give me a platform you dont want to give me. and discrediting me as a player is trivially easy.
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Feb 13, 2020 18:00
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Mr. Steak posted:are you talking about the lurker gun that you consistently defended me for not using despite pressure to do so? not the first one the second one Mr. Steak posted:it really feels like your shade on me is coming from a disingenuous place, and the reason you won't respond to my casing is that ignoring it will make it go away, and engaging would give me a platform you dont want to give me. and discrediting me as a player is trivially easy. I do want to discredit your argument, because it is bad and wrong. But being wrong just about me is trivial, it's our differences over the overall game theory here that are getting me fired up. I'd hate to discredit you as a player though, since I believe your behaviour is consistent with your town game. Your maddeningly frustrating town game.
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Feb 13, 2020 18:04
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Bifauxnen posted:not the first one the second one that's the one where I was screaming from beyond the grave that ASF was a liar and needed to die, btw
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Feb 13, 2020 18:09
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SolusLunes posted:So let me back up the plan I'm advocating by sharing my stats: Left out tinkering, and I think anyone saying terrible at most building great at combat is probably more likely to be a monster/infiltrator, also I find it strange that he knew he was probably slightly more than okay at seer projects given... "Why is your Seer affinity ??? instead of words? Your character has no idea what it entails and is unable to estimate how good they are at it. You have an actual hidden numerical score like you do for other affinities, that will be revealed if you join Seer projects" is listed in the FAQ
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Feb 13, 2020 18:26
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Is there a reason you are only talking about this post amd ignoring the discussion that already occurred around it?
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Feb 13, 2020 18:30
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For the record, I'm good at tinkering, good at masonry.
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Feb 13, 2020 18:35
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Solus and Amni are my top reads. I don't buy Solus's excuse for implying he might be good at seer stuff. Additionally, I think everyone doing seer stuff is probably stupid as most of us probably aren't experts at building AND experts at seer stuff, so that seems like an irrational plan, imo. I think people should do what they are best at. I am best at Tinkering and also if I'm fighting put me on the front line.
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Feb 13, 2020 18:40
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For what it is worth, my best skill is average. That's why I am doing seer.
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Feb 13, 2020 18:41
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Amni first jumped on Solus for the claim, pivoted onto Mega, joined in shading me, is pushing a plan that probably is not beneficial to town. Amni and Solus both look like scum in plain sight hiding behind mechanics and too scummy to be scum. Riding easy votes and pushing cases that seem bad.
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Feb 13, 2020 18:41
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Amnistar posted:Is there a reason you are only talking about this post amd ignoring the discussion that already occurred around it? Speaking of that discussion, I had a relatively slow workday today so I reread most of the thread while folks weren't really posting anyway. That mostly just solidified my opinions on Binus/Charms/Hunt as being overall scummy (albeit now rearranged to that order), I noticed that Alli only really posted anything of note like twice so far. Both times were for utterly banal dumb arguments because she was so focused on arguing semantics over anything of substance. In this case it being a thoroughly stupid argument with Solus because the modnotes for the stats says they "may be different." Ironically, I'm currently inclined to think that she's just lurker-Town from this, because it's such an odd thing to do that effectively just serves to draw negative attention to herself. I realise there's a non-zero chance I'm WIFOMing myself super hard with that one, but it just... stands out as such thoroughly bad play that it almost can't be a scum thing to do.
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Feb 13, 2020 18:42
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drat I wish the player list in the op had links to individual post histories
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Feb 13, 2020 18:45
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Furthermore, there wasn't really even a discussion. It was just solus saying he read too much into it, Alli asking about it and none other than amni pressing Alli for questioning solus. 
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Feb 13, 2020 18:45
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Anomalous Amalgam posted:Amni first jumped on Solus for the claim, pivoted onto Mega, joined in shading me, is pushing a plan that probably is not beneficial to town. Amni and Solus both look like scum in plain sight hiding behind mechanics and too scummy to be scum. Riding easy votes and pushing cases that seem bad. Amni voted for the scum claim and removed the vote when it was proven this was an every game thing. Amni *then* voted for AA for bad play and swapped to mega when mega came across as worse. And I'm pushing a plan that nearly coincides with one of our outlined victory conditions. You clearly arent readi g the thread completely.
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Feb 13, 2020 18:46
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Anomalous Amalgam posted:Furthermore, there wasn't really even a discussion. It was just solus saying he read too much into it, Alli asking about it and none other than amni pressing Alli for questioning solus. My bad, got that claim confused with the later one that went into discussion of accidentally revealed numbers.
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Feb 13, 2020 18:47
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Alli has provided almost nothing in the form of reads. All mechanics chat. The only thing I can see is that she said all scum claims should be treated seriously, yet didn’t vote solus. Would vote alli
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Feb 13, 2020 18:50
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Anomalous Amalgam posted:Left out tinkering, and I think anyone saying terrible at most building great at combat is probably more likely to be a monster/infiltrator, also I find it strange that he knew he was probably slightly more than okay at seer projects given... Aside from the stuff I already discussed with Alli... Why do you think town wouldn't have people bad at building but good at combat? Additionally, why are you sure that non-town is a monster/infiltrator? Why not just call them scum? Is there a flavor reason besides "that's how the game works" that you've got to think that? Anomalous Amalgam posted:Amni first jumped on Solus for the claim, pivoted onto Mega, joined in shading me, is pushing a plan that probably is not beneficial to town. Amni and Solus both look like scum in plain sight hiding behind mechanics and too scummy to be scum. Riding easy votes and pushing cases that seem bad. What about amni's plan is not beneficial to town? Could you elaborate?
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Feb 13, 2020 19:00
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Dragonatrix posted:Speaking of that discussion, I had a relatively slow workday today so I reread most of the thread while folks weren't really posting anyway. That mostly just solidified my opinions on Binus/Charms/Hunt as being overall scummy (albeit now rearranged to that order), I noticed that Alli only really posted anything of note like twice so far. Both times were for utterly banal dumb arguments because she was so focused on arguing semantics over anything of substance. In this case it being a thoroughly stupid argument with Solus because the modnotes for the stats says they "may be different." Pointing out something that was a legitimate-seeming contradiction in my posts is negative? I don't think she was casing me or bringing up those points in any kind of disingenuous way. This, however, is an odd way of throwing shade on someone and distancing yourself from throwing shade on them by saying "but their bad actions were so awful it's towny?" That makes no sense at all. Especially from the context that her casing of me wasn't a bad idea.
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Feb 13, 2020 19:04
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Amnistar posted:Amni voted for the scum claim and removed the vote when it was proven this was an every game thing. You initially suggested we all work on a soothseer project. "Soothseeing: Seer projects upgrade the Builder and no one else. Enough successful projects may result in something pretty amazing. Seer projects do not fork." To answer Solus: The plan "nearly" coincides with one of our outlined victory conditions(on assumption alone). That's why it's probably not the most beneficial thing for town. Combatants and town in general will probably need the boons granted from other successful projects along masonry/tinkering as well. Even if we turbocharged soothseeing tonight, it's still just tier 1, the game probably has a progression somewhat attached to the day and night phases. I doubt the rainbow drop or w.e. is also directly/specifically attached to the seer projects alone as well. So, I think its a bit hyperbolic and cocksure of amni to float it and coast on it like it's some golden fool proof plan. I can maybe see you reading into things, but at the same time... NYEH! I think both of you have played like scum.
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Feb 13, 2020 19:07
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I think the amazing thing is the rainbow drop, obtaining which nets us the win. Not sure how you missed that.
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Feb 13, 2020 19:08
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SolusLunes posted:Aside from the stuff I already discussed with Alli... I'm just saying I bet monsters will most likely hide behind the "uh ho ho ho - I'm bad at building, but a GRREAAAT fighter" *wink wink* It would just be the logical thing to do as scum I think. You look like you're contributing, and cooperating probably without lying. I doubt scum actually are great at building anything being destructive monsters. Just a flavor based hunch, but yah... I imagine a scum probably also doubled down on that specific flavor.
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Feb 13, 2020 19:09
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Also, I didnt initially suggest it. I presented it as an alternative option so we could all learn our seer affinities, and said it was probably a dumb idea when I presented it...
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Feb 13, 2020 19:09
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Amnistar posted:I think the amazing thing is the rainbow drop, obtaining which nets us the win. I explain that I did not miss it. Mr. Nearly.
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Feb 13, 2020 19:09
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You are, however, acting like I'm pushing this plan hard when I presented it in one post, clarified in another, and dropped it in favor of a more balanced approach on a third.
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Feb 13, 2020 19:11
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Amnistar posted:You are, however, acting like I'm pushing this plan hard when I presented it in one post, clarified in another, and dropped it in favor of a more balanced approach on a third. It stands out to me even if you aren't dying on that hill.
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Feb 13, 2020 19:13
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Anomalous Amalgam posted:It stands out to me even if you aren't dying on that hill. It feels disingenuous and superficial. I hold that Soothseer is 100% the most important build path and we should prioritize completing it every day. 1. Death of the builder = game over. Making them better in combat just seems like a no brainers. 2. I *know* the golden raindrop is a build based on my role, and I am nearly certain it is the last build of soothseer.
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Feb 13, 2020 19:19
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Anomalous Amalgam posted:I'm just saying I bet monsters will most likely hide behind the "uh ho ho ho - I'm bad at building, but a GRREAAAT fighter" *wink wink* Reasonable enough, I suppose, but I think you're relying too much on flavor. In fact, I'm actually curious as to why you're not relying on the OP itself that states: "Scum players also commit themselves to building projects, which they either slow down just by existing, or actively sabotage." What you're doing looks like reasonable scumhunting that people could disagree with, and if need be, you could go back on it with "oh welp looks like I'm wrong as town often is". Why not use actual mod rules in the OP and get rid of ambiguity? I don't think scum could even build if they wanted to.
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Feb 13, 2020 19:19
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Rainbow Drop. Brain doesnt work.
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Feb 13, 2020 19:19
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I'm caught up but going back to respond to a few things now before I get back to work.MegaZeroX posted:The read and vote on the table for me means less when you aren't the one making the original case, and then the only new "contributions" you made were misunderstanding me when I mentioned starting with a shitpost in the other concurrent game which I realized I probably shouldn't talk about in here. This responded to only half my post, before going off on some tangent that is not at all related to what I said. Again, you found 50% of the thread scummy, of course it was likely I would find some of the same people scummy. It is math. You are using several arguments like this. Against me, against Mona, etc. That are just utter nonsense. I think at this point you are just trying to find anything that will stick. MegaZeroX posted:It feels really weird to single out Amni's vote like this, when there are many other people voting for lurkers (Bif, me, Leith, PMush Perfect, and CCKeane). Particularly when you claim that Hunt is your second highest read. Mona's post about hunt felt like panic mode to me to show that they actually have thoughts about things, so I don't know if they forgot their own narrative, or if it was meant to be bus in case one of them flipped. I don't really see a towny interpretation of this weird singling out of Amni. It didn't actually. I don't agree with it, and I'll get to that in a moment, but this followed logically from Mona's recent experience in the other game and seemed specific to the situation(someone moving off the vote leader to a lurker) which, without looking, I don't think that applies to the giant list of others you posted. Again, weird nonsense argument. Again, town can make arguments like these too, but right now I'm leaning that you are scum doing your best to get the heat off you by throwing poo poo everywhere and hoping something sticks. Having said that: Bifauxnen posted:uggggggh KB help me out here, I always hate this argument, lurkers gotta get voted for too Bifauxnen posted:you brought up the GGN example... that one was so especially painful because of the mason mechanics, which made people inherently riskier to lunch if you weren't aware of their master status. Your swing to GGN was so rapid at the last minute that it allowed no time to confirm this status. That does not apply in this game. Exactly. This is a different situation entirely. Switching to a lurker during the day when there is still time to discuss it and time for scum to push back or push for it, gives you plenty to read. Its true you don't get much from the lurker you are cuddling, but that is ALWAYS going to be the case. And it is only going to be worse actually, the further you wait to do it. In a game with no lurker rules I can see, tackling scummy seeming lurkers early seems way better then the alternative. For that reason, I'm actually thinking like Amni was. If we leave Mega in, it seems like they'll continue to give us lots to comb through and look at. If I was 100% they'd flip scum, like I had a cop result or something, it would be one thing. But I'm not, so might be worth pushing it off and going for someone that isn't going to have much to offer going forward. So an interesting question would be, if we were to vote a lurkerish person, who would you want it to be?
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Feb 13, 2020 19:44
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tier is for people that are a mixed bag
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King Burgundy posted:So an interesting question would be, if we were to vote a lurkerish person, who would you want it to be? I'm not sure if this is toward me but I'll answer it at the very least. If we're absolutely dead set on axing someone who is lurking D1 I'd want it to be Hunt. I think what theyve offered isnt great and I've started thinking of them as a soft scum read. I've not going to switch right away cause I have already stated I want to try and see people force the issue re: Mega vs Iron Chef Ramen, but if momentum swings that way I'm more than happy to vote at that point.
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Feb 13, 2020 19:49
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Waka waka I'm just Kramering into this apartment to ##vote Mega
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Feb 13, 2020 19:52
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