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Doctor Spaceman posted:Who / what is Shaun talking about here? He's 100% right.
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Feb 16, 2020 16:55
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Eugene V. Dubstep posted:fair's fair, the neurotypicals itt don't kick up a fuss every time someone posts an inane junior high book report on a 2000s video game I already had this person on my ignore list and I do not remember why but I'm confident I made the right choice. 
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Feb 16, 2020 17:05
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Ibram Gaunt posted:He's 100% right. i like shaun but i don't get it? i am not a smart or well-read person, so i could be missing a LOT when it comes to this and i'm sure it's a much more nuanced discussion than i'm prepared to have or shaun would really wanna have, but i'm uncertain how even the most uncharitable "Person X should be ignored because they believe something bad" is incompatible with "the us prison system is based on denying basic human rights and is hosed beyond repair"? (i'm not someone who fits the description of the tweet either, so maybe i'm missing something basic there.)
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Feb 16, 2020 17:20
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Doctor Spaceman posted:Who / what is Shaun talking about here? Probably some online Leftists when it comes to Chapo. Virgil Texas posted a screencap from Salo in response to Pete's campaign party and people took it as him being homophobic. (For the record, I have no opinion on Chapo. I don't listen to them and have no real interest to, but I can't go into some Leftist space without seeing someone complain about them and their "dirtbag Left".) Most people who do what Shawn is describing or people who compress all electoral candidates to say they're all the same tend to have never organized anything or been part of an organization. I hate to use the word "purity politics" because it's another term lovely liberals co-opted to excuse their establishment candidate's horrible racism but it's pretty apt here. Some online Leftist's just have too much smug and ego for solidarity with flawed people who believe in a lot of things they do but express it in language that they don't agree with or have views that aren't good. Basically, being very online is poison and people should learn to log off.
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Feb 16, 2020 17:20
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It's pretty telling when internet people consider "cancelling" someone (a subset of people telling others not to watch a person's content/follow them online) to be the equivalent of keeping a person imprisoned. Without a hint of irony. "I am serving 20 years for weed because of a racist police system." "Yes, I understand your pain. I can no longer co-host a YouTube show with a McElroy brother." Casey Finnigan fucked around with this message at 17:24 on Feb 16, 2020 |
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Feb 16, 2020 17:22
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Ibram Gaunt posted:He's 100% right. It's basically the younger equivalent of those folks who have both the "All Are Welcome!" and "Vote Against (local proposal that would allow more housing)!" yard signs on their lawn. Extremely leftist when it is an issue distant enough from their daily lives to be abstract, but kinda right-wing when the rubber hits the road.
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Feb 16, 2020 17:28
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Isn’t “cancelling” just ignoring someone famous? Doesn’t really seem comparable to the hell that is the US prison system or life after conviction, which genuinely renders someone a nonperson incapable of working or living.
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Feb 16, 2020 17:29
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I'm sure to people online the concept of a declining veiwer base is on par with prison.
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Feb 16, 2020 17:34
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Antifa Turkeesian posted:Isn’t “cancelling” just ignoring someone famous? Doesn’t really seem comparable to the hell that is the US prison system or life after conviction, which genuinely renders someone a nonperson incapable of working or living. yeah it originates in women (I'm pretty sure specifically black women coined the term) using whisper networks to protect each other from predators and collectively drop support for them
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Feb 16, 2020 17:37
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Antifa Turkeesian posted:Isn’t “cancelling” just ignoring someone famous? Doesn’t really seem comparable to the hell that is the US prison system or life after conviction, which genuinely renders someone a nonperson incapable of working or living. I mean, it can range from just hitting the "block" button (and maybe encouraging others to do the same) all the way to actively attempting to deplatform someone, trying to interrupt their stream of revenue (like reporting their Patreon), etc. But philosophically it is pretty incompatible to hold that ones vile/disagreeable statements are a permanent stain that deserves permanent consequences while those who have committed actual crimes should be removed from punishment earlier. The answer, of course, is that a lot of these people believe (secretly or not) that when they're talking about prison reform they're only really talking about people who are (in their eyes) morally innocent. Like the already-mentioned example of the nonviolent drug offenders who are victims of a racist system. They aren't actually considering that this type of reform is also intended for people they would genuinely find morally reprehensible (domestic abusers, rapists, etc).
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Feb 16, 2020 17:37
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The idea behind canceling is that essentially someone is unable to socialize or even find employment because of atrocious things they have done in the past. It obviously doesn't work this way in real life but that's kind of the intention behind it. Removing someone from the games industry for being a rapist for example. The problem is nobody actually really cares if someone's a rapist or not in practice so it kind of doesn't work.
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Feb 16, 2020 17:37
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That it's become twisted to mean "losing subscribers because they said a slur" is kind of hosed up.
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Feb 16, 2020 17:40
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It's a pretty bad strawman he's set up. Like, this person who thinks someone is irredeemable for using un-pc language sounds extremely hypothetical because I don't think I've ever met them or anyone like them and I'm not convinced they exist outside twitter hyperbole. And even for such a caricature, there are about a dozen layers of nuance between and separation between someone losing their livelihood/career for saying awful things and the current state of our prison system. I like Shaun's videos but that's a lovely, lovely take.
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Feb 16, 2020 17:47
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its impossible to have a real conversation about 'cancelling' because it means whatever and affects people in different ways. compare a sexual assault survivor getting called a pedophile and a rapist for writing a slightly problematic jojo's fanfic with 50 views, that getting spread around various discords, and literally nobody who doesnt want to ruin her caring because literally nobody on the planet knows who she is except some random who stumbled across said fanfic, versus youtube gamer man saying the nword, getting made fun of for two days, and then continuing to make millions and all his fans circling the wagons anytime the criticism comes up even if they're getting the exact same amount of hate in the exact same ways, the end results are wildly disproportionate. the people who are most affected by this stuff are gonna be the ones who had the least power to begin with.
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Feb 16, 2020 17:47
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There are quite a few people that do proclaim "let's ban this guy from everything forever" after a good ol' heated gamer moment that would probably agree with prison abolicionism (I've come across a few online, actually). The fact that the former doesn't actually ever happen is important for real-life distinctions but not when you're talking about your own beliefs, that's more of a philosophical thing, which I think is what shaun was aiming for. At the end of the day those are just musings from spending too much time on Twitter, I guess.
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Feb 16, 2020 17:48
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LanceHunter posted:But philosophically it is pretty incompatible to hold that ones vile/disagreeable statements are a permanent stain that deserves permanent consequences while those who have committed actual crimes should be removed from punishment earlier. This stuff is so funny. Who's even saying that? Where's an example of a "cancelled" person who has been legitimately interested in trying to redeem themselves and make up for their actions who has been shunned? 9/10 times they just reappear online and start getting huge (but slightly lower) view counts again, either doing the exact same thing or railing against "cancel culture."
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Feb 16, 2020 17:48
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Casey Finnigan posted:This stuff is so funny. Who's even saying that? Where's an example of a "cancelled" person who has been legitimately interested in trying to redeem themselves and make up for their actions who has been shunned? 9/10 times they just reappear online and start getting huge (but slightly lower) view counts again, either doing the exact same thing or railing against "cancel culture." Endorph posted:its impossible to have a real conversation about 'cancelling' because it means whatever and affects people in different ways.
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Feb 16, 2020 17:50
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Casey Finnigan posted:This stuff is so funny. Who's even saying that? Where's an example of a "cancelled" person who has been legitimately interested in trying to redeem themselves and make up for their actions who has been shunned? 9/10 times they just reappear online and start getting huge (but slightly lower) view counts again, either doing the exact same thing or railing against "cancel culture."
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Feb 16, 2020 17:51
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https://twitter.com/shaun_vids/status/1228990175864393728?s=19 feel like people might be missing the intent here
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Feb 16, 2020 17:51
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Endorph posted:I mean, again, the people who are actually getting shunned and experiencing real consequences even after trying to make amends are the ones nobody knows about, which is the core issue here. If you're well-known you have a complete safety net, 90% of your audience will never even realize it happened. but nah its only ever well known people this happens to because if i dont see something it didnt happen
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Feb 16, 2020 17:52
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Endorph isn’t talking hypothetically about Jojo fanfic by the way; that really happened and it really caused the author to attempt suicide due to the harassment.
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Feb 16, 2020 17:54
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Yeah, the people who actually get hurt by canceling aren't all the people who are complaining about it because they lost a few thousand subscribers or whatever, it's people who are constantly harassed to the point of suicide or forced out of their jobs because they did something mildly problematic once.hopeandjoy posted:Endorph isn’t talking hypothetically about Jojo fanfic by the way; that really happened and it really caused the author to attempt suicide due to the harassment.
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Feb 16, 2020 17:56
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everythingWasBees posted:Yeah, the people who actually get hurt by canceling aren't all the people who are complaining about it because they lost a few thousand subscribers or whatever, it's people who are constantly harassed to the point of suicide or forced out of their jobs because they did something mildly problematic once. imo though that's way past cancelling and is more accurately harassment
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Feb 16, 2020 17:59
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surprising noone except apparently people in this thread, cancel culture is garbage because it harms people (often minorities) with little to no power while failing to hold people with power at all accountable
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Feb 16, 2020 18:00
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The distancing power the internet has to render people into objects and make people feel like they’re watching tv or playing a game when harassing or harming someone at a distance is a real problem. A bunch of adults on twitter trying to get a teenager to commit suicide because they think her drawings of Steven Universe characters are too skinny seems like something bigger that can also be found in the genesis of gamergate or the radicalization process mass shooters undergo by watching sargon and then posting in the discord. But if I think Louis CK is a piece of poo poo and I post about how people shouldn’t go watch his movie or I call pewdiepie a bad word on his youtube comments, that’s different enough that using the same word for both seems unproductive.
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Feb 16, 2020 18:00
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CYBEReris posted:imo though that's way past cancelling and is more accurately harassment what's the difference
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Feb 16, 2020 18:01
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almost every instance of canceling mentioned in this thread has been accompanied by a large amount of harassment. sometimes justified and sometimes not. at this point they're one and the same.
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Feb 16, 2020 18:03
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everythingWasBees posted:what's the difference cancelling is putting verified information on someone's lovely behavior out there and letting people do what they will harassment is going after people for not cutting ties, filling the person's mentions with death threats, etc. i think the distinction is important and useful and a methodology designed to protect the marginalized shouldn't be thrown out wholesale because some people wolf-in-sheep's-clothing to present their harassment as cancelling
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Feb 16, 2020 18:04
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the issue is column a almost always leads to column b in the internet age and very few people stop and consider if what someone did was bad enough to warrant possibly leading to column b
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Feb 16, 2020 18:07
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It seems to me as though this is the main point w/r/t the Jojo fanfic:Endorph posted:compare a sexual assault survivor getting called a pedophile and a rapist for writing a slightly problematic jojo's fanfic with 50 views, that getting spread around various discords, and literally nobody who doesnt want to ruin her caring because literally nobody on the planet knows who she is except some random who stumbled across said fanfic, versus youtube gamer man saying the nword, getting made fun of for two days, and then continuing to make millions and all his fans circling the wagons anytime the criticism comes up The situation where a youtube dude is "cancelled" because a large number of people talk about the fact that he's DMing underage people or whatever - that's what I hear when I hear someone is "cancelled". The situation where a fanfic author is harassed to a huge extent by a small group of people is something I would just call cyberbullying or harassment. The key point is that when I hear "cancelling", I think "this person is being criticized in public because large amounts of people are motivated to feel like they have to warn others about the way they behave/show that the way they're acting sucks." The case where a small group of people attack a person for a piece of fanfiction, that everyone involved well knows is gonna be read by basically nobody, is harassment. There's no desire to protect others, nobody else actually cares, they want to ruin the target of their harassment using the methods that they have at their disposal. If the term "cancelling" is going to include everything from: (a) people who still run successful youtube channels and Patreons, but get a contingent of people grumbling when their videos come out, to (b) small-scale fanfiction authors that get cyberbullied into nearly committing suicide, then the term is not useful.
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Feb 16, 2020 18:11
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Yeah it's a garbage term in its current form
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Feb 16, 2020 18:12
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if an artist I like draws under-18 characters having sex then yeah, I'd want to know about that and would appreciate a warning. how would you make that warning without doing something that could be construed as cancelling, since pretty much any form of callout is conflated into that?
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Feb 16, 2020 18:13
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Casey Finnigan posted:The key point is that when I hear "cancelling", I think "this person is being criticized in public because large amounts of people are motivated to feel like they have to warn others about the way they behave/show that the way they're acting sucks."
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Feb 16, 2020 18:14
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There’s also the element of online “fame” where a person has a lot of youtube views and clears $70,000 a year on patreon after taxes but has none of the insulation or protection that actual rich celebrates have, but are treated the same way by internet people.
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Feb 16, 2020 18:15
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CYBEReris posted:if an artist I like draws under-18 characters having sex then yeah, I'd want to know about that and would appreciate a warning. how would you make that warning without doing something that could be construed as cancelling, since pretty much any form of callout is conflated into that?
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Feb 16, 2020 18:19
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I never heard of "cancelling" in a whisper network context, but I'm not gonna claim I have been around many whisper networks. It was always about the reaction to the information being out there. Frankly, I think cancel culture isn't a thing and you all kinda already talked about why: "cancelling" is pretty useless as a term. However, I do believe the Internet discourse has a tendency to always be at 100% volume and looking for opportunities to rip someone a new one just because it feels nice. Hell, you can see this happening in SA sometimes. Someone says something stupid, they get called out, try to explain themselves to variable levels of success, and they're still getting hit by drive-by posts like, two pages and six hours later. That's not "cancelling" and I'unno if it's harrassment either, but it feels...weird. There's a point where you're just getting your dunks in for your own satisfaction - I guess that's why Twitter can be a hellsite, it's the place where you have to have an opinion about everything, so you just get that times a hundred.
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Feb 16, 2020 18:21
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Endorph posted:I mean, what sort of reach would you have, how would it be framed, where are you putting it, etc. like if you have 10k+ followers it doesnt really seem relevant to point out that some guy on twitter drew jotaro and kakyoin loving, and even if there is a need you can just go 'fyi they have some gross poo poo on their timeline.' versus like, documenting literally every instance of it with timestamps, the implied 'and this is why this person is bad,' the attempts to spread it around so everyone knows. that kinda thing my point is that just going 'fyi they have some gross poo poo on their timeline' will ALSO be construed as cancelling. if it got any reach whatsoever that's how people would immediately define it. if you can see the immense disparity in these two approaches, why use the same term and conflate them, rather than straightforwardly condemning harassment as harassment? Catgirl Al Capone fucked around with this message at 18:31 on Feb 16, 2020 |
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Feb 16, 2020 18:22
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It feels like Jojo is in especially bizarre territory here because it has a 15-year old that neither looks nor acts remotely like a high-schooler. Perfectly set up to make the discourse really weird.
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Feb 16, 2020 18:34
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back in MY DAY what you YOUNGINS would call CANCELLING was just known as a good ol fashioned CALLOUT POST
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Feb 16, 2020 18:53
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hrrrgh i loving hate navigating the anime teen discourse here's my dipshit take: almost every time twitter erupts into an argument about "purity culture" and "letting artists be messy", it's all vague and abstract until you do enough digging and discover that, in fact, it's all about barely-disguised pedoshit. And I don't mean "two or more fictional teens having a consensual sexual relationship without disproportinate power or fetishization of neotony", because that's just using high school age anime characters as an exploration of reasonable relationships. I mean poo poo like "Hot Dudes Making Out", a TTRPG explicitly about how sexy and cool grooming/being groomed is. Yes, sometimes it's stuff like the Attack Helicopter story, which was taken out of context. But child porn, written or drawn for the express purpose of being porn about children, is disgustingly common and artists close ranks and use the boogeyman of "cancel culture" instead of reckoning with the harm grooming material does to young people.
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