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Jadzia is a snoozefest until about halfway through season two. Then they decided to make her kind of a dick who loves to party, which worked well for her. Sadly they didn’t really lean as far as they could have into that. One of my favorite moments is in The Ship where everything is going to hell and Sisko tears her down and tells her to stop acting like an rear end in a top hat because everyone is tired of her poo poo.
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Feb 16, 2020 14:53
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Capricious, functionally immortal Jadzia was fun. Like, on the face of it, she’s basically a Time Lord. Make her slightly like the Doctor, Q, or even Guinan.
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Feb 16, 2020 15:32
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I'm not going to let boring Jadzia just derail past the wholely unjustified slam on Lwaxana Troi, Daughter of the Fifth House, Holder of the Sacred Chalice of Rixx, Heir to the Holy Rings of Betazed. Ok when I first watched TNG (when it was new and I was a child) I hated her and her episodes. Now I love them. She is the only real social foil for Picard in the series (maybe Vash) and her episode with David Ogden Stiers is just genuinely good and benefits from all the previous characterization. I think she just grows on you.
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Feb 16, 2020 16:03
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As you get older, Lwaxana grows on you until you realise she’s that fun aunt you actually want to hang out with.
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Feb 16, 2020 16:25
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The_Doctor posted:As you get older, Lwaxana grows on you until you realise she’s that fun aunt you actually want to hang out with. Or as a woman realise you might be turning into her, good and bad. I have just finished Enterprise for the first time. Back when it was airing I only watched through to the end of Season 2 and I decided, for whatever reason, to watch the whole series again in its entirety. I could talk at length about how this show suffers from post-9/11-itis from season 3 onward. I could bemoan the squandered premise. But what I'd like to ask you all here today is: "What the gently caress is up with that final episode?!" It's so bizarre. I knew there was a TNG connection at the end of the series but I didn't expect it to be woven into the entire episode. If I'm understanding this right, the whole episode takes place chronologically during the episode when they find the Pegasus inside of an asteroid, right? Why?! Why go back in time and drop in this...I don't even... Is there a good write-up somewhere of the history of this show or at least the final episode? The series may not be that great but I suspect behind the scenes there's some fascinating history about the production. Any resources you fellows might have would be greatly appreciated.
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Feb 16, 2020 16:35
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From what I remember, the episode was a misguided attempt to wrap up Trek as a whole (it was called a Valentine to the fans), rather than just Enterprise, and so bringing in portly Riker and British Troi was their way of bringing the series together. Of course it ended up looking more like a gently caress you to the Enterprise cast and fans by making them second fiddle in their own finale, plus they make a big deal about Archers amazing speech which becomes a cornerstone of the founding of the Federation only to decide it’s not worth showing and walk away. I don’t have an issue with the Enterprise parts of the finale - to be honest the idea of jumping into the future and having the crew on their way to decommission Enterprise when they have to help Shran isn’t a bad one - it’s shoehorning in Riker and Troi which spoils it.
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Feb 16, 2020 16:42
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I mean I mildly dislike Trip about half the time, but he didn't deserve that kind of shabby treatment.
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Feb 16, 2020 16:49
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It's extra insulting because the Terra Prime arc worked pretty well as a "this leads to the Federation" nod already, and it was a good arc in its own right, and then got followed up by that steaming pile. Also in one of the scenes with Riker in Ten Forward you can see Riker walk by in the background.
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Feb 16, 2020 17:00
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marktheando posted:I mean I mildly dislike Trip about half the time, but he didn't deserve that kind of shabby treatment. It's a really pointless death and barely affects things following it. Why have it happen at all? The TNG elements really do take away from the Enterprise crew in a way that's super lovely. It should have been their finale without Troi and Riker hanging out like voyeurs or making the whole ending a simulation. I'd have been pissed if I were the actors. Why on earth were they setting it up as a finale to all Trek? Was the franchise really that hosed at that moment in time?
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Feb 16, 2020 17:12
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The Pegasus tie-in is the most baffling part of it to me - it’s not an iconic episode, there’s no thematic or plot connection to Enterprise, and it’s not even an episode Bergman or Braga wrote and so might feel personally fond of. It’s just an utterly random choice.
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Feb 16, 2020 17:12
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Angry Salami posted:The Pegasus tie-in is the most baffling part of it to me - it’s not an iconic episode, there’s no thematic or plot connection to Enterprise, and it’s not even an episode Bergman or Braga wrote and so might feel personally fond of. It’s just an utterly random choice. Because Riker faced a dilemma...just like Archer did! It kind of implies that Riker is just totally useless without spending hours and hours in the holodeck though. Secret goon?
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Feb 16, 2020 17:15
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The answer is, basically, "Rick Berman wanted it". Everybody else hated it. The cast of Enterprise thought it was an insult, Brannon Braga says that it was the only time Scott Bakula was mean to him, and Braga says he regrets it. Joleen Blaylock called it "appalling". Connor Trineer said he was "shocked and a little miffed" when he read the script and that "I wanted us all to have the big M*A*S*H moment - the really memorable farewell. Sadly, it just didn't happen. That's not where the writers and producers wanted to focus." Jonathan Frakes says he regrets it and the entire episode was just awkward and is "an unpleasant memory". In short, nobody was happy about it.
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Feb 16, 2020 17:22
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runwiled posted:It's a really pointless death and barely affects things following it. Why have it happen at all? You’re talking about it 15 years later, that’s why. It’s cheap shock value. runwiled posted:Was the franchise really that hosed at that moment in time? Yes
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Feb 16, 2020 17:25
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skasion posted:You’re talking about it 15 years later, that’s why. It’s cheap shock value. It's not even that much of a shock though because Troi (I think) telegraphs it happening about 15 minutes into the episode. It's also such a poo poo death itself. "Some thugs got onboard and I exploded them." The stakes have been so much higher on this show and to go out like that? He should have overloaded his own precious warp engine and taken out a whole fleet of Romulans or something equally impressive. "You and me baby, we've been together these past ten years. I ain't about to let them mothball you. What say we go out with a bang?" You know, something suitable cheesy
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Feb 16, 2020 17:32
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runwiled posted:
The other three shows all got 7 seasons. Enterprise was cut off at 4. Trek was totally dead until 2009.
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Feb 16, 2020 17:46
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Also worth noting that Nemesis was a critical and financial failure as a movie.
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Feb 16, 2020 17:53
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I thought the Riker cameo was well deserved and came off as a great payoff that cemented Archer and crew as legitimate members of the Enterprise legend. That it was a holodeck thing during Pegasus and not some post Nemesis era.... Eh.
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Feb 16, 2020 18:00
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Insane Totoro posted:I thought the Riker cameo was well deserved and came off as a great payoff that cemented Archer and crew as legitimate members of the Enterprise legend. King of Bad Opinions. It might have worked if this wasn't a finale but saying that Enterprise isn't legitimate Trek without tying it to TNG is really bad. I don't think Enterprise had to prove that.
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Feb 16, 2020 18:03
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runwiled posted:King of Bad Opinions. You are so lucky you're cute... It was a sweet and adorable little cameo and trekkers be haters!
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Feb 16, 2020 18:10
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Insane Totoro posted:I thought the Riker cameo was well deserved and came off as a great payoff that cemented Archer and crew as legitimate members of the Enterprise legend. It wasn't a cameo, he's in like half the drat episode.
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Feb 16, 2020 18:14
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Yeah it's not really a cameo if the episode centres around him.
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Feb 16, 2020 18:22
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Even doing something cute like having Frakes play Chef without it being Riker could have worked. Instead the entire framing device of that episode is that it's Riker needing to get some moral clarity. He starts at one point in the episode and ends in another. The only other person whose state changes is Tucker because he's dead. What a crock of poo poo.
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Feb 16, 2020 18:29
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Insane Totoro posted:You are so lucky you're cute... It would have been an adorable cameo crossover if it had been anything else but the series finale.
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Feb 16, 2020 18:31
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I'm just always happy to see the Enterprise-D (if you know what I mean) no bloody E.
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Feb 16, 2020 18:32
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Powered Descent posted:It would have been an adorable cameo crossover if it had been anything else but the series finale. Yes. It would still have been dumb to put fat Riker in Pegasus, though, instead of post-Nemesis
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Feb 16, 2020 18:36
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marktheando posted:I mean I mildly dislike Trip about half the time, but he didn't deserve that kind of shabby treatment. Trip was my favorite character on the show at the time and I was baffled by that decision. The Enterprise relaunch novels aren’t great and they lean into Section 31 nonsense, but I’ll always appreciate that the very first thing they did was resurrect Trip and say it was all a ruse, like some giant middle finger aimed squarely at “These Are The Voyages”.
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Feb 16, 2020 18:37
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We already had enough explicit inclusion of ENT in "real" Trek during S4 with Soong, Augments, interbreeding, seeds of the birth of the Federation, etc. Having TNG characters say, "this is as important a part of our history as Kirk's Enterprise" is nice but not worth the shitheap of a show we got. I did enjoy Trip going out to save his best bud, perfectly in character, but yeah, I like the "let's not get mothballed" idea better. Even as an ardent ENT defender I won't say S4 was perfect, but it could have been better wrapped up even beyond scrapping the holodeck conceit. If they had de-goofed the Romulan drone eps a little, moved those closer to the end, and used those as the penultimate episodes for a birth of the Federation finale two-parter that starts as Andorians/Humans/Tellarites/Vulcans "let's get revenge on &/or logically and violently preemptively stop the Romulans!" but changes to "we're better than that; let's do NATO + exploration", that could have wrapped the show on the right note, leaving room for a miracle Hail Mary S5 with a mid-season Romulan war arc. e: and of course it's Archer's dramatic speech that turns the tide of the mood, even though he's regurgitating the very same moral points that T'Pol made to him in private and he rejected like two scenes earlier Admiralty Flag fucked around with this message at 18:49 on Feb 16, 2020 |
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Feb 16, 2020 18:46
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It's genuinely very surprising that my favorite part of ENT is very divisive. Hell even my mother liked it and she vastly preferred TNG.
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Feb 16, 2020 18:48
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Insane Totoro posted:Hell even my mother liked it and she vastly preferred TNG. If she preferred TNG, of course she'd like it. The whole episode comes across as, "We (the producers of this show) don't have faith that people like Enterprise but they love TNG! Let's just shove in something everyone loves!"
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Feb 16, 2020 18:59
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Admiralty Flag posted:
With better direction that could have been a really powerful moment. Archer wants to make his Human speech, and then right before presenting he realizes that the principles he's arguing for are at odds with how he's discounted his advice from aliens. He gives T'Pol's speech because swallowing his pride and cooperating is the right thing to do and the Federation is founded.
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Feb 16, 2020 19:04
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Arglebargle III posted:With better direction that could have been a really powerful moment. Archer wants to make his Human speech, and then right before presenting he realizes that the principles he's arguing for are at odds with how he's discounted his advice from aliens. He gives T'Pol's speech because swallowing his pride and cooperating is the right thing to do and the Federation is founded. You're right; I was just sophomorically bitching about one of the worse recurring characterization decisions on the show. OK, Archer, we know Vulcans are dicks to humans, they stifled your father's life's work, they second-guess you at every turn, but after like half a season even paranoid and untrusting Malcolm Reed's irregular pattern recognition would have correlated the things this one Vulcan on the crew predicted or advised to favorable outcomes with high confidence. But Archer? Nope, he only takes T'Pol's advice when his Magic 8-Ball is broken and he has nowhere else to turn. It eventually gets better but even in seasons 3 & 4 he cowboys up and follows his gut instead of following good advice on occasion.
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Feb 16, 2020 19:12
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Given how much of Archer’s characterization draws from GWB, I wonder if they would have leaned into him being wrong and pigheaded more often if the show had continued. Bush was still hitting approval rating numbers in the 45-50% range in 2005. 2006-07 is when he started hitting the low 40s-30s.
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Feb 16, 2020 19:18
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gently caress it, imma gonna go full ENT apologist. Even S3 was not bad. Furrinners who hate our Earthly way of life and our freedoms attack us We go out to whup some rear end and stop them at all costs We find they are making an even bigger weapon We decide we're going to stop it at all costs We keep finding easy ways to do it but our humanity won't let us do it (like nuke the kemocite plant from orbit) We take desperate measures to destroy the weapon but when those fail we realize the futility of trying again matching violence to violence and instead talk with our not-enemies instead of trying another plan Honesty alone wins the day with the open minded Truthfulness and fraternity (sorry, can't think of a non-gendered word) of moral sapients carry the alliance into battle against genocidal zealots Shran shows up for the second time this season. (The only data point I really needed to prove it is a good season) There's definitely a moral arc from "whatever it takes" to "right makes might" in S3 One of the things that did bother me was when Archer did go space pirate. That would have been more satisfying as a reverse trust setup from Degra. Archer's ready to board, calls off the assault, hails the ship, pleads for the warp coils, and Degra, not the Captain, appears on screen. "You had to find out what sort of man I was. I hope you don't hold it against me I had to know the same for sure before betraying my people. If you had boarded that ship, you would not have survived, but I now trust you fully...now we can move forward, if you can forgive me."
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Feb 16, 2020 19:53
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Nah. Wrong.
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Feb 16, 2020 20:29
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Remember when the finale of DS9 was framed as just the news about the end of the Dominion War that the crew of Voyager were just hearing about?
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Feb 16, 2020 22:37
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Arglebargle III posted:Nah. Wrong. It's definitely not a top 10 season of Trek, but I'm honestly curious if you think I'm off base with the "moral redemption arc" or "rediscovering our better angels" or whatever you want to call it. (Granted, the Enterprise crew embracing piracy for exigent need is the one misstep, falls back into the hard people making hard choices Trek tried so hard to show as a flawed view, and shows no consequences to either the crew or their victims.) On the other hand I think that season has the episode that's a retread of the TNG episode where Geordi gets turned into a Predator -- it's Archer and Sato IIRC transmuted into some extinct aliens -- and that hits any 10 worst ENT episode list.
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Feb 16, 2020 22:48
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Admiralty Flag posted:It's definitely not a top 10 season of Trek, but I'm honestly curious if you think I'm off base with the "moral redemption arc" or "rediscovering our better angels" or whatever you want to call it. I'm not an ENT apologist--I have consistently said that it's Star Trek Missed Opportunities: The Show--but I'll actually go to bat for the third season after watching it a few months back on H&I, and I think it's Enterprise's best, even if it does wear its post-9/11 influences on its sleeve a little too much. I don't much care for Enterprise's fourth season. Far too much fanwank and "hey, hey, do you get this reference? Huh? Do you get it?" for my tastes, although Terra Prime was an excellent way to end the show and I appreciate Coto being smart enough to write "his" finale because he knew Berman and Braga would rear their heads.
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Feb 16, 2020 22:57
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Season 3 was bad. Having a space George W bush and terrorism plot badly dates the show. The temporal Cold War was always unfocused and off concept for the show. Season 3 also has possibly the worst finale two-parter in the history of Star Trek.
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Feb 16, 2020 23:04
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Arglebargle III posted:Season 3 also has possibly the worst finale two-parter in the history of Star Trek. This is just patently false when Descent and [insert Voyager finale other than Scorpion here] exist.
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Feb 16, 2020 23:10
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descent is better than time traveling Nazi lizards
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Feb 16, 2020 23:11
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