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oswald ownenstein posted:How many people are actually in this camp? If you put the new xcom and old xcom back to back would you consider them in the same franchise? Make it more tricky and put Xenonauts and Phoenix Point next to them and ask which one are the real Xcom games.
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Mar 1, 2020 17:46
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jng2058 posted:Purportedly, it's to make it easier for the player (and possibly the monsters, though I dunno how smart the AI will be in that respect) to set up combos. Like: It'll be really annoying if the AI can do that on the non-hardest difficulties though, but I'm confident they can make that work. It's a good point. cuntman.net posted:because of co op probably Also this.
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Mar 1, 2020 17:47
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I would also like to point out that the initiative they went with is actually an optional rule in the DMG:Side Initiative p270 posted:Recording initiative for each PC and monster, arranging everyone in the correct order, and remembering where you are in the list can bog the game down. If you want quicker combats, at the risk of those combats becoming unbalanced, try using the side initiative rule.
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Mar 1, 2020 17:48
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Volte posted:You still haven't described this je ne sais quoi that makes something Baldur's Gate or not, if not the mechanics, the graphics, the setting, the lore, or the fact that it will largely take place in the city of Baldur's Gate. The only thing left that I can think of is a distinct lack of MCU-esque fan service, which I'm positively grateful for. What about the gameplay trailer evokes baldurs gate in any way? Sound? Music? Art style? UI? font? To answer your questions it's a bunch of things that Larian put zero effort into capturing for 'bg3' and his tweet confirms that it wasn't even part of their mindset - so it's literally just taking the name for recognition and making a 5e game in the dos engine. quote:The last thing I want BG3 to be is a tribute to BG2. Maybe our idea of what a tribute would be is different but that's exactly what I'd want it to be - if a tribute would be like what xcom 2012 was, or the new doom games. I am replaying dos2 and it seems like it would be pretty amazing if they had just done a baldurs gate game in the DOS engine but we're not gonna get that Bholder posted:If you put the new xcom and old xcom back to back would you consider them in the same franchise? Make it more tricky and put Xenonauts and Phoenix Point next to them and ask which one are the real Xcom games. Heck yeah. The new xcom was amazing. Xenonauts would be more like siege of dragonspear - I'd hestitate to say it's even Pillars of Eternity quality, but it's in that vein of recapturing the original. Phoenix Point is just hot garbage and I won't talk about it oswald ownenstein fucked around with this message at 17:54 on Mar 1, 2020 |
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Mar 1, 2020 17:52
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Baldur's Gate feel to me is essentially the 2nd of BG2 where your bumming around Athkatla emptying XP, gold and magic items into a loot sack. I loved peeling that place apart and sticking my dick into any random old hole in the wall and getting murdered by a surprise lich but hey here's Daystar for your trouble. That poo poo was the bomb. It's also a feeling that is edition agnostic. The most important question to me is if Larian can provide a large adventure dense environment with interesting loot and the occasional completely in over your head asskicking. And with some hazy feelings about the interesting loot part, they probably can.
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Mar 1, 2020 17:54
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oswald ownenstein posted:Sound? Music? Art style? UI? font? Literally none of the aspects you mentioned are in any way similar between OG X-Com and new XCOM, though Seriously, have you ever considered the possibility that this "BG feel" you keep harping on and on and on about might be completely subjective?
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Mar 1, 2020 18:01
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Nordick posted:Literally none of the aspects you mentioned are in any way similar between OG X-Com and new XCOM, though how does it being subjective change the point everything is subjective lol he's just giving his opinion on why it isn't baldurs gate OBJECTIVELY it is baldurs gate 3, that's what the title says
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Mar 1, 2020 18:05
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Nordick posted:Literally none of the aspects you mentioned are in any way similar between OG X-Com and new XCOM, though If the start menu doesn't open with a Chorus shouting "BUUM BUM bum bum" at me then I'm sorry but it's not actually Baldur's Gate in any fashion and Swen Vincke must be led to the guillotine.
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Mar 1, 2020 18:07
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oswald ownenstein posted:Heck yeah. The new xcom was amazing. You didn't answer which one of these gave a "true xcom feeling"
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Mar 1, 2020 18:08
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Meyers-Briggs Testicle posted:how does it being subjective change the point Yeah except he keeps framing it as "Larian isn't doing anything to make it feel like a BG game", which he is not in anyway the arbiter of. EDIT: I mean, "I'm not personally getting a Baldur's Gate vibe from this" would be perfectly fine, stating poo poo like "Larian doesn't care about Baldur's Gate and are not trying to make a real BG game" like it was objective fact is dumb. EDIT 2: Caidin posted:If the start menu doesn't open with a Chorus shouting "BUUM BUM bum bum" at me then I'm sorry but it's not actually Baldur's Gate in any fashion and Swen Vincke must be led to the guillotine. Also the level up notification sound must be the EXACT SAME *boing* noise or the entirety of Larian studios must be put to the torch Nordick fucked around with this message at 18:39 on Mar 1, 2020 |
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Mar 1, 2020 18:20
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oswald ownenstein posted:so it's literally just taking the name for recognition and making a 5e game in the dos engine. oswald ownenstein posted:I am replaying dos2 and it seems like it would be pretty amazing if they had just done a baldurs gate game in the DOS engine but we're not gonna get that For that matter, the comparisons to Doom and XCOM are not relevant, because neither of those were sequels to the earlier games, they were reboots and re-imaginings of their respective series, and even a specific game in the series. If this was "Baldur's Gate: The Reboot" featuring all your fave characters and places just how you remember them, but they completely changed it from RTWP to turn-based, added cinematic dialogue, took away specific dialogue lines, and added a bunch of Larian-esque environmental stuff, then yeah that would probably be a huge swing and a miss. This isn't a reboot though, it's just another game in the series, taking place within a canon that hasn't been asleep for the past 20 years. Even if WotC had been licensing out Baldur's Gate for games every 3-5 years for the past two decades, there's no reason to assume that we wouldn't have ended up at this exact spot, with lots of other takes on the mechanics and lore in between to absorb and diffuse the "not a real Baldur's Gate" backlash. If you want to complain about WotC's handling of the Realms canon, or Baldur's Gate specifically, then knock yourself out. I personally am not very invested in that, but I can understand how some are. But the rage at Larian is nonsensical. Volte fucked around with this message at 18:56 on Mar 1, 2020 |
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Mar 1, 2020 18:53
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Volte posted:
They're absolutely relevant for showing how to continue an old franchise in a new direction while maintaining the flavor of the original Larian hasn't done any of that and isn't even trying - Svens tweet was just confirmation of that.
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Mar 1, 2020 19:01
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I don't see how Doom 2016 has much of anything to do with the original Doom. It doesn't maintain any of the original flavour as far as I'm concerned other than on a very broad scale (and also more in terms of what it doesn't do than what it does). Most of what it retains is just recognizable weapons and monsters. If anything it's more of an action-oriented reinterpretation of Doom 3, which many people derided at the time for not being Doom. I love both eras of the games, but in no way are they comparable in terms of when, why, or how I play them. Eternal is going even further away from the original gameplay loop of Doom, into a more Sekiro-like battle chess game (Hugo has talked about this at length). The more I think about it the more I realize that Doom is actually a great counter-example to your point. It proves that future iterations of a game can be fundamentally different in almost every way, and still feel at home alongside the older ones.
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Mar 1, 2020 19:08
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Volte posted:Eternal is going even further away from the original gameplay loop of Doom, into a more Sekiro-like battle chess game (Hugo has talked about this at length). I have no idea what this means, and yet I'm somehow excited.
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Mar 1, 2020 19:11
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Caidin posted:If the start menu doesn't open with a Chorus shouting "BUUM BUM bum bum" at me then I'm sorry but it's not actually Baldur's Gate in any fashion and Swen Vincke must be led to the guillotine. This, but unironically. I'm sure they could have done a RTWP game that looks a lot like Baldur's Gate and the POE games, and just used 5e for the underlying maths. That would have been great. This is different, and I don't like things that are different. 
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Mar 1, 2020 19:12
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Strom Cuzewon posted:I have no idea what this means, and yet I'm somehow excited. He's talked about it in a few places but he talks about the role of mastery and frustration in Doom Eternal, and specifically the influence of Sekiro, in the Noclip video below (timestamped). Can't remember if it's this same video or another one, but somewhere he was using a lot of chess metaphors and really playing up the strategy aspect as well. Basically, it's making me super excited for Doom Eternal specifically because it's pushing the franchise further and further in new directions, and taking influence from other games that I love instead of just reiterating itself over and over again. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBHIalb01ew&t=1390s
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Mar 1, 2020 19:35
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I could argue that the new Doom resembles Quake more than classic Doom, but Quake also took inspiration from Doom and has a very similar feel to it yet at the same time it's closer to a more modern game. So even if we claim that BG3 resembles Dragon Age more than classic Baldur's Gate, that doesn't mean it will have nothing to do with Baldur's Gate
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Mar 1, 2020 19:39
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Bholder posted:So even if we claim that BG3 resembles Dragon Age more than classic Baldur's Gate, that doesn't mean it will have nothing to do with Baldur's Gate Actually it does
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Mar 1, 2020 19:41
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oswald ownenstein posted:They're absolutely relevant for showing how to continue an old franchise in a new direction while maintaining the flavor of the original I’ll let you in on a secret: the quintessence, the essence, the spirit, the very heart of Baldur’s Gate is whatever Larian does with this game, Baldur’s Gate 3. It is not BG1 or BG2, which are dead games that live in the past. You will be one of many people who buy it and complain that it doesn’t have old and busted mechanics like a game you played 20 years ago. However, you will be one of the millions who buy it and play it, which is the point. Larian will then make BG4 and the cycle will repeat itself.
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Mar 1, 2020 19:52
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I'm so happy this is going to be turn based, gently caress real time with pause. Not happy about team initiative versus individual initiative though. I love xcom2, but a big problem I had with it was the strategy generally boiled down to 'alpha everything down on screen because if they get to act at all it'll suck for you'. I was hoping for more granular initiative.
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Mar 1, 2020 19:57
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Can someone write, or point me to, a tl;dr summary list of the game's features? The OP isn't very... helpful. Also, very fun to jump into this thread and people are still complaining about that old timey Baldur's Gate feel. Reminds me the good old Pillars of Eternity beta days. You guys are the best.
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Mar 1, 2020 19:58
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Unless there's some major immutable gameplay reason that the initiative is team-based, I could see that being something that they workshop in Early Access. Make sure to hit them up with constructive feedback once it's available.
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Mar 1, 2020 19:59
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<boots up Final Fantasy VII for the first time> WTF this is nothing like Final Fantasy I what is this horrible garbage?
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Mar 1, 2020 20:00
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Megazver posted:I would also like to point out that the initiative they went with is actually an optional rule in the DMG: I think it's the mentioned "risk of combats becoming unbalanced" people are sweating, not accuracy to the rules. If we're talking XCOM (and Larian is, at least): engagements tend to be feast-or-famine for the player, based on what phase pods are activated and how many are activated at once. Under ideal circumstances, you're hitting one group at a time and getting them contained or eliminated completely before they have a chance to retaliate; in less-than-ideal circumstances, you're getting worked over by one or multiple groups spamming explosives, flanking shots, stuns, mind control, etc. When a team gets to take actions at the same time, there's a massive advantage to getting initiative! The preview footage they showed indicated they're probably going to try and find ways to let the player secure first round advantage in combats, but how many are going to be guaranteed and not based on, say, a skill check that you can fail because the dice didn't roll in your favor, or the usual D:OS jank reared its head and you ended up in combat before you're ready? A big complaint about XCOM is that enemies in fog of war can sometimes feel pretty random and lead to pods being activated in unexpected ways, but you can eventually learn by playing how to recognize unsafe situations and plan accordingly. You can't really factor player skill into a dice roll, and I don't feel I'm getting better at understanding the game through failing to roll higher than a 3 on a d20. 5e not having as many deterministic offensive options as XCOM may help blunt the first round advantage, but I worry that handling initiative in the way they are is just going to lead to frustration and savescumming (or breezing through fights with minimal pushback). It also has some potentially dumb implications for team-building, like having a character whose whole job is Being Fast so everyone else can dump dex or whatever.
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Mar 1, 2020 20:03
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Imagine when Michelangelo made the statue of david, many years later the rights-holder having passed on to his family, and then some capitalist pays for the rights to make another one but out of iron and wood and it doesn't look that good but it had gear mechanisms that let it change poses and kick a soccer ball.
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Mar 1, 2020 20:05
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Furism posted:Can someone write, or point me to, a tl;dr summary list of the game's features? The OP isn't very... helpful. That's cuz we don't know many of the game's features beyond like nitty gritty 5th ed rules (which I don't know)
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Mar 1, 2020 20:06
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So the new Doom games are full of reverence for the originals - in all the demon designs, the music homages, getting rid of reloading as a mechanic Even if it were done by another studio nobody would play it and think "this isn't doom"
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Mar 1, 2020 20:07
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Volte posted:Unless there's some major immutable gameplay reason that the initiative is team-based, I could see that being something that they workshop in Early Access. Make sure to hit them up with constructive feedback once it's available. iirc they ended up with D:OS2's incredibly dumb forced alternating turns from early access feedback. Be careful what you wish for!
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Mar 1, 2020 20:08
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oswald ownenstein posted:So the new Doom games are full of reverence for the originals - in all the demon designs, the music homages, getting rid of reloading as a mechanic
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Mar 1, 2020 20:09
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Volte posted:Can you link me to the build of BG3 you're playing that is causing you to conclude that BG3 is not full of any of these things? I'm just commenting on the gameplay we've all seen which is what people are discussing??
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Mar 1, 2020 20:10
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oswald ownenstein posted:I'm just commenting on the gameplay we've all seen which is what people are discussing?? You: This video is proof that they don't care about Baldur's Gate or D&D and just want to trick players into playing D:OS3. There's zero effort involved here, and the game will be nothing more than a Divinity mod.
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Mar 1, 2020 20:12
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Freakazoid_ posted:Imagine when Michelangelo made the statue of david, many years later the rights-holder having passed on to his family, and then some capitalist pays for the rights to make another one but out of iron and wood and it doesn't look that good but it had gear mechanisms that let it change poses and kick a soccer ball. Is that supposed to not sound awesome?
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Mar 1, 2020 20:13
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Like, say what you will about the finished product, but questioning Larian's work ethic or reverence for the source material is a good way to make it obvious you're talking out of your rear end.
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Mar 1, 2020 20:20
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oswald ownenstein posted:So the new Doom games are full of reverence for the originals - in all the demon designs, the music homages, getting rid of reloading as a mechanic The game can only render 5 monsters on screen at once and the level design is way too linear. Also the game is rendered in full 3D and you can freely look up and down. Clearly Doom 2016 is not a real Doom game but a chash grab
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Mar 1, 2020 20:26
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Blockhouse posted:Is that supposed to not sound awesome? It does sound awesome but it's intention was to facilitate capitalism.
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Mar 1, 2020 20:29
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Well, you can in fact copy the statue of david right now and do that if you want to. It's not like the original one is going anywhere either.
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Mar 1, 2020 20:31
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Freakazoid_ posted:It does sound awesome but it's intention was to facilitate capitalism. I mean, same with the original David. Michelangelo was an artist and likely viewed the project from an artistic standpoint first and foremost but the city of Florence wasn't paying him for a sick-rear end David statue for no reason.
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Mar 1, 2020 20:31
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Maybe I missed it, but is there any reason to believe the player can't start combat with a ranged attack or spell, before the "combat" actually starts? In the playthough, it looked like turn-based combat started when the enemy first saw a party member. So if the player can see most if not all enemies before that happens, the initial initiative roll becomes somewhat less important, no?
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Mar 1, 2020 20:38
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Does anyone actually like how Larian does dialogue. It’s mind boggling to me.
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Mar 1, 2020 20:39
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Starks posted:Does anyone actually like how Larian does dialogue. It’s mind boggling to me. I liked it in OS2 just fine. The BG3 style seemed a bit weird but I'll probably get used to it.
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