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MiddleOne posted:Yeah, same in Yugioh with 'sent to the grave' versus 'removed'. I always liked that Yugioh had to add 'banished face-down' as an extra level of removal given all the cards that interact with banished cards. A face-down banished card straight up has no information at all so the only way to get them back is generic banishment return, which barely exists.
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Mar 5, 2020 11:55
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Pilchenstein posted:The most annoying thing about losing all the expeditions is that I'm not actually learning anything - no matter what strategy I use when drafting or how I play, it always feels like dumb loving luck kills me one way or another. Try to remember that the difference between being a bad player and being the best player in the world is probably something like a 20% difference in win rate. The best players aren’t going to 7/7 every expedition. They could do more to make going 6/6 feel slightly better tho. They did it a bit last patch, but there’s room there. I wonder if they have any interest in a ranked Expeditions queue, where going 5+ wins results in LP gains. Lord_Magmar posted:I always liked that Yugioh had to add 'banished face-down' as an extra level of removal given all the cards that interact with banished cards. Magic’s version of this is silver border, but I hope when the mechanic inevitably comes to the actual game it keeps the name 
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Mar 5, 2020 14:03
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This game has a rule of zone transfer resetting all text on a card, specifically so that recall works to reset a card that's been debuffed (or buffed). This is consistent to how Shark Chariot's text works because moving to the dead zone resets its text. It would probably require a re-write of the card for it to work like a (defending) player would want. This is also wildly different from Eternal, where changes to cards are permanent and track from grave to hand to deck. That game has effects that can be applied to cards both temporary and permanent that prevent them from being removed from grave, plus the ultimate removal of putting a card on the bottom of the deck, which in a game with zero shuffling is basically banishment.
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Mar 5, 2020 14:37
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Shabadu posted:This game has a rule of zone transfer resetting all text on a card, specifically so that recall works to reset a card that's been debuffed (or buffed). This is consistent to how Shark Chariot's text works because moving to the dead zone resets its text. It would probably require a re-write of the card for it to work like a (defending) player would want. Exactly. I don't think the Runeterra framework is internally inconsistent, but it feels to me like they've chosen a few disparate ideas and thrown them together. In Magic, a card can't be modified if it's not in play. (Except, I guess, cost?) You can treat a card not in play as if it's something else, but a card in Magic is what it is unless it's in play, where you can put tokens on it or whatever. (Someone chime in if I'm wrong, it's been a few years.) In Eternal, a card can be modified anywhere. Give a card in your hand an ability. Buff cards in your deck. Buff cards in your graveyard. Debuff cards in your opponent's graveyard. Et cetera. In Runeterra, it's a mish mash? You can buff cards in your deck. They keep that buff if they go deck->hand, or deck->play, or hand->play, but not if they go back to a hand. Or to the graveyard. I feel, having spent a fair amount of time thinking about it, that it's internally consistent, but not intuitive.
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Mar 5, 2020 16:01
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This game really needs a comprehensive rules doc and a visible graveyard.
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Mar 5, 2020 16:15
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I really wish they wouldn't let you draft decks from 3 regions, I'm bad enough as it is without having to remember all the possible cards from an extra region that might counter my stuff 
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Mar 5, 2020 16:24
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Pilchenstein posted:I really wish they wouldn't let you draft decks from 3 regions, I'm bad enough as it is without having to remember all the possible cards from an extra region that might counter my stuff Being able to make 3 region decks was actually an explicit goal and benefit of Expeditions, they’re meant to let you build decks that would otherwise be impossible.
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Mar 5, 2020 16:36
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It's easier when you realize the odd faction cards in a deck come from specific buckets. Early in a run you can extrapolate from champions, but as they add champs the variety of buckets and trades offered will become slightly more varied. So there probably won't see much frostbite in a Noxus/Demacia/Frejlord once you've seen certain cards out of them because the Freljord splash in Noxus is mostly for the self damage enablers. Or if you see a Noxus/SI/Demacia deck you're probably playing against an Aristocrats style deck that wants units to die. It's unlikely you see Reckoning because it doesn't play with their gameplan. This is the kind of thing I love about playing limited since you really do get rewarded for knowing more about what possibilities you're up against. Constructed tends to have much more common lines that you can easily telegraph.
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Mar 5, 2020 16:40
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I just started an expedition, picked Teemo and then got offered exactly one each of chump whump and puffcap peddler, did they actually tone down the mushrooms on tuesday and just not mention it?
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Mar 5, 2020 16:50
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Enjoying my 6 Troop 6 Bull Elnuk decks in Draft every week until they will probably rework them this month
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Mar 5, 2020 16:56
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Pilchenstein posted:I just started an expedition, picked Teemo and then got offered exactly one each of chump whump and puffcap peddler, did they actually tone down the mushrooms on tuesday and just not mention it? I've been trying to force buckets more aggressively and it's been a bit of a disaster so far. Ended up in mono frel trying to go frel SI by picking every cloning gallery bucket but no luck.
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Mar 5, 2020 17:06
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I will always force P+Z because their decks are the most fun and hilarious when they work. My favourite draft last week was a 6 barkeep and Cataclysm deck, I think I actually dropped Cata early in like 3 of my wins. I had a nutty Teemo deck soon after that and breezed 6-0 until hitting a mono-Freiljord who full board Troop'd me on turn 5 and 6.
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Mar 5, 2020 17:57
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Cataclysm is just a straight up "have an answer in hand or I win" card if the game drags on past early aggression and PZ has some good anti-aggro spells and chump blockers. Only counter to a turn 5 full-board Elnuk I think is having either ruination or decisive strike or reckoning and a 5+ attack unit ready to go, I can't think of much else that can save you against a high roll.
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Mar 5, 2020 18:05
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I'm a boring player and I just value stats, removal and solid combat tricks above everything else.
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Mar 5, 2020 18:05
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Firebert posted:I will always force P+Z because their decks are the most fun and hilarious when they work. I believe the requirements for Cataclysm are lower in early Expeditions due to deck size, so it's actually easier to pull off.
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Mar 5, 2020 18:22
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15 to trigger vs 20 in constructed. The cards even have different names, Accelerated Purrsuit is the expedition version.
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Mar 5, 2020 18:39
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 And that's how I've just got my first 0-win trial, double loving catastrophe in a single turn. You may ask, how did you not kill him earlier? Easy, he played 4 kinkou lifestealers, plus some other lifesteal stuff. gently caress my life. Angry Lobster fucked around with this message at 20:13 on Mar 5, 2020 |
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Mar 5, 2020 20:11
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Do you start off in expeditions picking a good champ or is region more important?
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Mar 5, 2020 20:11
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Pick the champs you want to play first, then worry about the region. If you first pick Aggro (draven, katarina, jinx etc) You might need to go with a subpar Ionia pick on your second champ vs something like Frejlord if you're offered something like Braum or Anivia that are more controlling. That'd get you access to the elusives and tricks you'd need to better pair with your first pick.
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Mar 5, 2020 20:41
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The most important thing is not never pick Kalista
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Mar 5, 2020 22:07
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elnuks are real dumb in draft right now, like all of my recent losses are due to my opponent just making GBS threads out 45 p/t worth of dudes on turn 5 my other two losses were from catastrophe, speaking of
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Mar 5, 2020 22:12
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Went 6-0 in my second trial but lost the 7th game with a Lucian/tryndamere deck. Splashed a lot of elites and most people couldn’t handle the good 5 drops after tossing in some combat tricks. Demaicia seems like a good region for expeditions. I’ve still only crafted one champion but I’m getting sick of I/F Elusives. Thinking of crafting 3 Hecarims for the ephemeral midrange deck or finally committing to Ez combo control.
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Mar 6, 2020 04:11
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My expedition champ pick rule is: if you see hecarim or heimer, you pick them, lux is also up there for the same reason of just being able to carry games by themselves. Kalista isn't as bad as you'd expect so long as the other pick is SI and she enables mono-SI synergies, just don't treat her like something that will carry the game on her own but instead as just a improved arachnid horror that can potentially get you some extra value in a trade or two with a revived last breath or when summoned effect. Mono-frejlord or frejlord/PZ is probably top tier because of the elnuks. Ra Ra Rasputin fucked around with this message at 05:23 on Mar 6, 2020 |
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Mar 6, 2020 04:57
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My first trial was almost mono Frel and I got bounced at 1-3, didn’t get any elnuk picks.
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Mar 6, 2020 05:43
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Ever never seen more than single Elnuk bucket in my drafts. Is there a trick or am I just unlucky?
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Mar 6, 2020 05:51
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I think picking certain themes affects what you get offered but I don’t know how to work it
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Mar 6, 2020 13:09
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people have started writing guides for it on reddit - i learned more about it this week than the other 7 weeks combined. Something interesting that a riot dev confirmed is if you pick from a two-color bucket as your first pick, you are guaranteed to be offered a champion from the other color on your second pick. Note that the first picks are always monocolored, but you can see the color of the bucket by hovering over the bucket name (like "cloning gallery" and "arachnophobia"). So picking cloning gallery anivia first pick will guarantee an SI champion second pick. And picking Fiora first pick will always give you an ionia champ in the second pick. And Yasuo first pick will always give you a noxus option second pick. I havent had good luck forcing buckets, and I dont know exactly how important any of this knowledge is, but it's interesting to know and maybe might come in handy some time. No Wave fucked around with this message at 16:04 on Mar 6, 2020 |
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Mar 6, 2020 16:02
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Best expedition win had me going into turn 11-12 with 3 life and my opponent with around 17. They dropped a 14/14 They Who Endure. I possessed it, hit him with it, and then used atrocity to kill him with it.
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Mar 6, 2020 16:34
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No one ever expects atrocity, it's great.
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Mar 6, 2020 17:43
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Ra Ra Rasputin posted:My expedition champ pick rule is: if you see hecarim or heimer, you pick them
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Mar 6, 2020 19:53
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Pilchenstein posted:Hecarim I get but Heimer seems like a complete liability, doesn't he only work in very specific decks? Every time I've played him in expeditions he dies immediately and/or I get run over for having a hand full of spells and not enough units. That sounds like your problem is having a hand full of spells, not Heimer.
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Mar 6, 2020 20:18
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Locke Dunnegan posted:That sounds like your problem is having a hand full of spells, not Heimer.
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Mar 6, 2020 20:29
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Draft Heimer and removal, which isn't as luck based as it sounds given that P&Z have access to both mystic flare & thermogenic beam. I just 7-0 in expedition with Hemier x3, Ezreal, 6 mystic flares, 3 thermogenic beams. You do have to put some thought into playing Heimer decks. It's generally not a good idea to slap Heimer down right on turn 5, especially if you are first to act. You want to play him on a turn where you can cast spells for immediate value & after your opponent has spent their mana. If you can pair him with a faction that has recall or barrier, even better.
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Mar 6, 2020 20:39
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Every spell you cast while he is on the board is op as poo poo, so you dont need some crazy amount of them to win from that position.
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Mar 6, 2020 20:40
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It's as simple has having some number of Flash of Brilliance in your deck, a free spell that gives you a 3/1 evasive turret if you cast it with Heimer on the board. Eager Apprentice is a high pick for the deck since it gives you a chump that keeps your spell mana filled.
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Mar 6, 2020 20:43
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Every 3 mana spell with heimer is a game changer and there are a lot of 3 mana spells that are game changers already, he pairs well with demacia or ionia or even frejlord for freezing.
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Mar 6, 2020 20:46
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Cheers all, I appreciate this thread's endless patience with my incompetence
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Mar 6, 2020 20:51
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So, I Hextech Transmogulator'd a follower into a Switftwing Lancer, only to not get an Elite when the unit died. Same thing with a Shady Character. Bug, or working as intended?
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Mar 6, 2020 21:25
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Finally caved in and crafted a Hecarim deck, and even won against a Heimer deck who had great draws and flooded the board with strong turrets but managed to pull through with a combination of rekindlers and a massive harrowing. This is bonkers and I'm sure it will get nerfed at some point.
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Mar 6, 2020 22:10
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To generalize the Heimer value into how to consider a card's value generally, there's an instinct to take a single type of strength and focus the entire deck around this. Red Deck Wins is an example of this. Pick all of the most economically powerful cheap cards and get in before they have a chance to react. Which cards do you need to make this work? Any of them. But if you follow that instinct with Heimer, you end up with the situation you describe--no way to last until he comes out, or he's too vulnerable, or worse, you never get to him and you're trying to inefficiently burn the opponent down with spells. Not cool. Instead, when we look at Heimer's value, we see an interaction with every single spell card. So imagine a deck that will have some but not all spell cards. If you draw a five mana 1/3, that's pretty poor value, but if you draw a 6 mana 1/3 chump + rando that ranges from (0/1, 1/1, 2/1 tough, 3/1 elusive, 4/1 fearsome, 5/1 quick attack, 6/1 overwhelm, 7/1 barrier, 8/8), it's maybe on par or slightly below par, with the possibility of exploding in value if you get another spell or two. But you wouldn't build a deck of just 6 mana bombs and expect to survive, so why build around it. As an example, I transfer the same thought process to Teemo, Teemo is generally considered a lower tier champion, and in many cases this is true. You can't protect him while he's useful, he's a lot weaker when compared to other champions, and most expensively, he takes up champion slots. If you focus on supporting him (except when Expedition drops tons of mushroom stuff), it's generally not super efficient by itself. But when compared in isolation, he's a 1-drop that will almost assuredly hit* on turn 1 or 2 for 1 damage + 5 shrooms with potential for more if unanswered. Assuming you get halfway through the opponent's deck in the course of your game, he's going to do 3.5 damage before burning one of your opponent's answers, making him, without interaction, the most efficient 1-drop damage you can put in your deck. Shadow Fiend is comparable but less card-efficient without own-deck interaction, since he won't soak up an answer. * code:
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Mar 6, 2020 23:22
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