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Things can also happen for a multitude of reasons. The leaders of the American Revolution were almost certainly more than a little aware that their personal wealth and influence depended upon revolution. But tens of thousands of soldiers didn't sign up to fight for that. It's one of those little historical ironies that one of the reasons for the American revolution was that the colonists wanted to expand into French colonial territory and start a war with France and England didn't, France supported the Americans in their struggle, then the Americans ended up just buying Louisiana from Napoleon.
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Mar 27, 2020 21:42
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Squalid posted:I dunno, I don't think it is such an outlier. They American Revolutionaries may not have seen their physical health and security to be in dire straights, but I'll bet they saw themselves as having no other choice if they wanted to defend the principles of freedom and liberty that they believed in. I think the American Revolution really isn't so different from a lot of other anti-colonial independence movements. In this case the Americans who ran the state assemblies decided they didn't like having to bear taxes imposed by parliament. When they complained they were basically told "There's nothing you can do about it." Turns out, there was. Like, most of the revolutions in the last hundred years did not really have a stage of "the local legislatures made a decision."
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Mar 27, 2020 21:44
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xthetenth posted:I'm asking for specifics. What groups were misrepresented to the public, and how? The weird Manson claim notwithstanding, COINTELPROs operations are now a matter of public record, and you honestly should know about them by now: Groups targeted include SDS, Black Panthers, AIM, Young Lords, Communist Party of USA, NOW and a bunch of other groups and individuals. Methods involved harassment, public discrediting by way of false flag and planted agents, evidence plants, total surveillance, assassination and kidnapping. If you'd like to know what was done to whom, I'd be happy to dig up the relevant information.
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Mar 27, 2020 22:05
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Ensign Expendable posted:*Acceptable targets of one-line zingers still include Keldoclock, bad cav island, and the F-35 procurement program. Tangentially related to F-35 procurement, were there any USSR equivalents of massively hosed up weapon programs? I seem to remember that T-64 was basically F-35 of 1960 MBTs.
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Mar 27, 2020 22:18
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I feel like often people are really more stumbling over themselves to justify a revolution being a revolution with its context in the evolution of ideology and philosophy and even throwing some personal moral judgments in there, which can lead to the idea that there are no "bad" revolutions, because if a big movement to change things has bad intentions, then it doesn't qualify. It's a weird circular logic kind of thing that sometimes seem like it's getting in the way of understanding why people do what they do by invalidating their beliefs. To that end, I kinda looked for an example of a "bad" revolution, going further than just the big questions of "how many deaths is change worth" or "does winding up establishing a totalitarian state invalidate a revolution's intentions", and the big example I came up with was the series of uprisings towards the end of reconstruction, where the weakening federal support for state and local governments across the former confederacy was overcome by white supremacists who established the new order of things in the south, and after tossing their old governments, established the new system of suppressing the newly free blacks for the next century.
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Mar 27, 2020 22:19
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Gervasius posted:Tangentially related to F-35 procurement, were there any USSR equivalents of massively hosed up weapon programs? I seem to remember that T-64 was basically F-35 of 1960 MBTs. Literally the entire defence industrial complex from 1945-1990. Defence spending was just out of loving control.
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Mar 27, 2020 22:25
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Gervasius posted:Tangentially related to F-35 procurement, were there any USSR equivalents of massively hosed up weapon programs? I seem to remember that T-64 was basically F-35 of 1960 MBTs. whatever that high speed interceptor jet they made out of steel was - it wasn't so much hosed up in terms of problems but it was hosed up that they'd brute force their way into making a supersonic interceptor that when empty weighed almost as much as a loaded F-15
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Mar 27, 2020 22:31
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Gervasius posted:Tangentially related to F-35 procurement, were there any USSR equivalents of massively hosed up weapon programs? I seem to remember that T-64 was basically F-35 of 1960 MBTs. Lots, a few off the top of my head: There were two attempts to replace the T-26 in service that ended up being disasters with the tank remaining in production from 1931 to 1939 in the meantime. At least both the T-46 and T-50 were finished designs, if not particularly suitable for mass production, but the attempts to replace the T-28 with the T-29 went on for ages because no one could agree what the T-29 would be like. The development of the T-34 was a clusterfuck at the beginning at the start it was literally just a guy in an empty room desperately trying to get any resources assigned to him at all. The NKVD also tried to have Koshkin arrested at one point in 1938 for sabotage The T-150, an evolutionary improvement to the KV-1, was in line to be accepted as the replacement for the KV-1, but rumours of superheavy German tanks led to cancellation of the program and development of monstrous KV-4 and KV-5 tanks, which would have weighed in at 80-180 tons depending on what design would have been chosen. As a result the KV-1 remained in production. The entire relationship between the Kirov factory and its offshoot, experimental factory #100, was a disaster, since the egos of the individual factory directors prevented them from working together, and factory #100 had to set up its own parallel assembly lines of components that were already in mass production literally several hundred meters away.
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Mar 27, 2020 22:34
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FAUXTON posted:whatever that high speed interceptor jet they made out of steel was - it wasn't so much hosed up in terms of problems but it was hosed up that they'd brute force their way into making a supersonic interceptor that when empty weighed almost as much as a loaded F-15 MiG-25. Also it literally ate it's own engines once it was going at speed, and proved that with enough thrust a solid steel brick can fly.
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Mar 27, 2020 22:39
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Fuligin posted:Ffs can we just move past the intra-forum bickering already. I swear this thread has a reactionary spasm like every five pages now A dude who's sworn to de facto support Trump's reelection has no right to call other people reactionaries. Actual content: Yesterday I found out there's a ship that was present at the Pearl Harbor attack still in active service, albeit as a civilian fishing vessel. Although really, being a fishing vessel is a step up from her Navy duties as a self-propelled garbage barge. Vincent Van Goatse fucked around with this message at 22:47 on Mar 27, 2020 |
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Mar 27, 2020 22:42
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Pull up, Pull up. Dont kill Ensign Expendable on their first day.
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Mar 27, 2020 22:46
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Polyakov posted:Pull up, Pull up. Dont kill Ensign Expendable on their first day.
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Mar 27, 2020 22:47
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SlothfulCobra posted:I feel like often people are really more stumbling over themselves to justify a revolution being a revolution with its context in the evolution of ideology and philosophy and even throwing some personal moral judgments in there, which can lead to the idea that there are no "bad" revolutions, because if a big movement to change things has bad intentions, then it doesn't qualify. It's a weird circular logic kind of thing that sometimes seem like it's getting in the way of understanding why people do what they do by invalidating their beliefs. There are plenty of 18-20th C revolutions that fizzled after the revolutionaries took their first town/city, then sat about and set up committees while the King's men regrouped and proceeded to overrun them.
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Mar 27, 2020 23:09
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Gervasius posted:Tangentially related to F-35 procurement, were there any USSR equivalents of massively hosed up weapon programs? I seem to remember that T-64 was basically F-35 of 1960 MBTs. The Su-57 makes the F-35 program look like a paragon of efficiency. There's an article I wrote about it in here. /selfplug
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Mar 27, 2020 23:30
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SlothfulCobra posted:I feel like often people are really more stumbling over themselves to justify a revolution being a revolution with its context in the evolution of ideology and philosophy and even throwing some personal moral judgments in there, which can lead to the idea that there are no "bad" revolutions, because if a big movement to change things has bad intentions, then it doesn't qualify. It's a weird circular logic kind of thing that sometimes seem like it's getting in the way of understanding why people do what they do by invalidating their beliefs. Granted that this did happen, and was bad, wouldn’t this still be more of a counterrevolution than a revolution per se, an attempt to return to the status quo ante?
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Mar 27, 2020 23:45
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Polyakov posted:Pull up, Pull up. Dont kill Ensign Expendable on their first day. quote:"My wife has been going to cooking school for three years."
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Mar 27, 2020 23:49
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Nessus posted:Right, like the economic question gets a little pat and reductive, but I do think it stands out because the structure that we generally consider "revolutionary" in a folk/casual way was not really there. There is also the very real prospect that if Britain had eased up some and maybe given the colonies a few seats in Parliament or something, they would have been like "sure," while most revolutions seem to be in contexts where the oppressing power does not have that space, for whatever reason. There was a similar issue with American representation in Parliament in Algeria prior to their revolution against France. Algerian Muslims kept pushing for increasing representation and rights commensurate with their supposed place as an integral part of France. However the French government balked every time it was proposed to grant any concessions. When an Algerian Assembly was created, Muslims and settlers from France were granted an equal proportion of representatives, despite Muslims vastly outnumbering the settlers. At one point it was proposed to fully incorporate Algeria in the French state, but again French leaders balked at the prospect of so many Muslims having freedom of movement to the metropole. Ghana's independence movement generally stayed legal and peaceful, so we might debate whether it qualifies as a revolution or not, although the answer will be purely academic. It would have stage where local legislatures are making decisions. However the legislature is not the only path to assert authority. Kwame Nkrumah got his start working for the United Gold Coast Convention, a political association funded by local Ghanaian professionals and business people. Later he would found the Convention People's Party. At their start neither part had any say in government, instead their power came from their ability to organize and mobilize through trade unions and other professional associations. They were effective enough at using strikes and such to pressure the colonial administration that British leaders were in short order devolving so much power to a newly constituted local legislature that independence become hardly avoidable. The fundamental problem was that new networks of smart ambitious men had developed in Ghana with their own ideas about how to run the country. As the colonial authority refused to give them means to advance their personal and ideological goals, they instead turned their talents towards taking it apart.
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Mar 27, 2020 23:55
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bewbies posted:The Su-57 makes the F-35 program look like a paragon of efficiency. dear god that cover is an abomination of graphic design. Who'se bright idea was it to put a melting snow texture on the Publication title? Why are the numerals in "SU-57" out of alignment with letters? I feel vertigo just looking at it Squalid fucked around with this message at 00:16 on Mar 28, 2020 |
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Mar 27, 2020 23:59
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Ensign Expendable posted:There were two attempts to replace the T-26 in service that ended up being disasters with the tank remaining in production from 1931 to 1939 in the meantime. At least both the T-46 and T-50 were finished designs, if not particularly suitable for mass production, but the attempts to replace the T-28 with the T-29 went on for ages because no one could agree what the T-29 would be like. What were these like then? Did they ever make it into a design/prototype phase and what would they have looked like?
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Mar 28, 2020 00:16
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Ataxerxes posted:What were these like then? Did they ever make it into a design/prototype phase and what would they have looked like? Which ones? All of the tanks I mentioned made it to prototype phase and the T-50 even entered limited production before they figured out there weren't enough factories to make them and switched to the T-60 that could be made with truck parts.
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Mar 28, 2020 00:38
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bewbies posted:The Su-57 makes the F-35 program look like a paragon of efficiency. Well, nice to see russian tradition of loving over India over military hardware continues to this day. Thank you all.
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Mar 28, 2020 00:54
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I was talking to an acquaintance about Sun Tzu's the Art of War while having coffee. I forget exactly what started the conversation but I remember him basically being unsure of what edition/translation he should read? I honestly don't quite remember, but I remember talking about my edition that I happened to own in print which seemed to include a lot of interesting historical information about Chinese warfare at the time, such as economic details and statistics about the growth of Chinese army sizes over that time period. As well as some interesting descriptions of battles. I remember recounting one such story about I think the book claimed was about Sun Tzu's son, serving some Kingdom or other, and how he led a night time ambush of a enemy column. By posting a notice board to a tree and waiting for the enemy commander to light a torch to read the message before ordering his men to fire. My acquaintance remarked that that story felt "too clever to be real". How much of history seems that way to others here, how much of military history do we know relatively a lot about with a lot of certainty and accuracy and how much does it start to maybe not be credible or perhaps has been massaged a bit? I remember watch the EC youtube series on Admiral Yi, they talked about how the records of Admiral Yi may have been somewhat creatively interpreted by Confucian scholars over the centuries to better convey a confucian aesop of one's duty to society. Then of course we have records of Emperor Justinian and the time Theodora was ruling in his stead and how much of the contemporary historical record may have been put through the wringer of sexist tropes casting Theodora in a more villainous light by contemporary scholars who may have been political enemies. So for example the Romance of the Three Kingdoms is a novelization/fictional account of actual historical events of the Three Kingdoms period, did the battle where one General sat alone in the middle of a city with all the gates unbarred and wide open, spooking the enemy commanding to retreat, did that actually happen?
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Mar 28, 2020 01:06
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How long did it take a factory that was making automobiles to retool to start making tanks? Or when Underwood switched a factory over from making typewriters to making M1 Carbines, how long was it before they were able to start turning out rifles?
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Mar 28, 2020 01:09
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Phanatic posted:How long did it take a factory that was making automobiles to retool to start making tanks? Or when Underwood switched a factory over from making typewriters to making M1 Carbines, how long was it before they were able to start turning out rifles? Trick question - that's a downgrade in product from a mighty pen to the second-place sword
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Mar 28, 2020 01:14
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Phanatic posted:How long did it take a factory that was making automobiles to retool to start making tanks? Or when Underwood switched a factory over from making typewriters to making M1 Carbines, how long was it before they were able to start turning out rifles? Underwood agreed to move totally over to carbine production on Feb 3, 1942. They were awarded an initial order of 100,000 rifles. The very first carbines were finished in November 1942, so about 10 months from deciding to change over to having rifles. That said, they only made about 3,000 of them before the end of the year. There were a lot of problems tooling up, ranging from factory level stuff to sub-contractors also having trouble getting parts to them on time. By December 1942 they had done a test with the Army and while there were some problems noted all in all they came up pretty good and were awarded two more contracts on top of what they already had, one for 180,000 rifles and one for 380,000. The 180k contract would later be expanded to about the size of the second one. Production at Underwood peaked in Dec 1943 with 90,510 carbines produced. That was a record breaking month - they had 42,000 in October and 65,000 in November. So to answer your question roughly ten months for any kind of construction to begin and then it ramped up steadily over the next year. By the time you get two years from the initial decision they're really cranking them out and are effectively a rifle factory that once made typewriters. Now that's kind of a best case scenario. Rock-Ola is an example of how it can go wrong. They were accepted to begin carbine production at the same time that Underwood was. They had a whole host of problems and didn't make any rifles until December 1942, when they made just 375 barrels. Not guns, barrels. The first complete guns were made in Feb 1943. That month they made 500 rifles and 7750 barrels. They ramped up a bit in march, making 4005 carbines and another 7683 barrels. Then, they actually started falling behind again. They were supposed to be making 1000 rifles a day by May (note that this is pretty reasonable given Underwood's numbers) but only managed 2000 per month in April, May, and June. Oh and they also had bad quality problems and had a lot of weapons rejected. Most damning, they had a receiver crack during Army tests. The rifles tested were also observed to nearly all be near max headspace at the start of the trials and out of spec by the end. So, when it goes well it can take a bit but then it gets going. When it goes poorly it's a clusterfuck that takes even more time. I suspect I can intuit why you're asking this particular question at this particular time and, I'll just add that yeah, retooling a factory to make, say, respirators isnt' an over night thing that will solve an immediate shortage
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Mar 28, 2020 01:27
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Nessus posted:I assume Comrade Expendable will either send us all to the Distant Town or will assign us to begin reading along the lines of the old Soviet joke: he's going to make us read his book of course
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Mar 28, 2020 01:56
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Did they ever dub The Critic in Russian?
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Mar 28, 2020 01:58
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Raenir Salazar posted:How much of history seems that way to others here, how much of military history do we know relatively a lot about with a lot of certainty and accuracy and how much does it start to maybe not be credible or perhaps has been massaged a bit?  ) stories out there. it's urban legends that people have been circulating for 400 years--the most cool is the bullshit stories about the 30yw that were told during the 30yw itself
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Mar 28, 2020 02:01
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HEY GUNS posted:there's a lot of stuff in early 17th century warfare that is absolutely mental, but real. on the other hand, this period was very interesting to people in the 19th century and there's a lot of bullshit romantic (Romantic! Come to think of it, the Charge of the Light Brigade is a bit of an early modern example of where the retelling of it isn't necessarily the factual record eh?
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Mar 28, 2020 02:03
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Let me refine my question: If I wanted to become an ace, as in five airframe kills, which gunner position would I like to be in if I had to be?
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Mar 28, 2020 02:04
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Raenir Salazar posted:Come to think of it, the Charge of the Light Brigade is a bit of an early modern example of where the retelling of it isn't necessarily the factual record eh? HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 02:19 on Mar 28, 2020 |
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Mar 28, 2020 02:05
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HEY GUNS posted:there's a lot of stuff in early 17th century warfare that is absolutely mental, but real. on the other hand, this period was very interesting to people in the 19th century and there's a lot of bullshit romantic (Romantic! Share some of the bullshit please.
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Mar 28, 2020 02:10
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VanSandman posted:Let me refine my question: If I wanted to become an ace, as in five airframe kills, which gunner position would I like to be in if I had to be? You wouldn't, but tail or nose, with the caveat that those positions are also the ones most likely to get you killed.
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Mar 28, 2020 02:12
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:Share some of the bullshit please. pappenheim supposedly had either 100 scars or had vowed to collect a scar for every year he had spent as a heretic (he was born protestant and spent his early life as one). he also supposedly had a birthmark shaped like two crossed swords that glowed red when he was angry. the night wallenstein was assassinated, piccolomini swore up and down an uncanny storm blew up. was it because wallenstein was a wizard? or because it was february in what is now the czech republic? the answer may surprise you
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Mar 28, 2020 02:17
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Is Wallenstein basically Zhuge Liang? Who is the 30yw Cao Cao?
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Mar 28, 2020 02:20
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"when wallenstein died i heard a report like a musket shot; this was his familiar devil leaving him" yeah or this was what was going on downstairs, what a surprise you hear shots 
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Mar 28, 2020 02:24
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HEY GUNS posted:"when wallenstein died i heard a report like a musket shot; this was his familiar devil leaving him" man if you ever decide to get a new av there's like five good candidates in that pic
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Mar 28, 2020 03:26
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Cyrano4747 posted:man if you ever decide to get a new av there's like five good candidates in that pic i want a new av! but yall mods won't give me one. An opulent picture of Vauban with FOPTIMUS PRIME under it
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Mar 28, 2020 03:28
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HEY GUNS posted:i want a new av! but yall mods won't give me one. An opulent picture of Vauban with FOPTIMUS PRIME under it I mean if you just want one it's five bucks. Link's right up there ^
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Mar 28, 2020 03:32
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HEY GUNS posted:
Obviously it's because he was a wizard, right?
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Mar 28, 2020 03:34
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