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Preggo My Eggo! posted:OK so to what extent do you feel that Chinese citizens are able to speak freely? Like give me a ballpark percentage, assuming that the US has 90% free speech. For the most part we can say pretty much what we want, we can say it to anybody in the world, and journalism isn't controlled by the state. Does China have a similar level of free speech in your view, more, or less? You can't ascribe a number to free speech you moron. There absolutely is a ton of censorship in China but that doesn't mean that said censorship is an iron barrier. We know this because we see censored poo poo posted on Weibo all the time. If there were hundreds of thousands more dead in China than was previously known, people would be talking about it. People have phones, they have access to internet outside of the Great Wall and access to sites that aren't censored by the Chinese government - and we aren't seeing that. Instead, what we have are some people from western countries asserting that of course the Chinese government has lied, of course they couldn't have responded effectively to the pandemic, and of course there must be hundreds of thousands dead. It is an assumption borne from first principles - the Chinese government is bad (which it is), so therefore it must do a bad job at everything that it does (which isn't true). If it looks like China is doing a better job at something than western governments have, then it must instead be the case that China is lying much more than anyone else is.
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Mar 31, 2020 23:47
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I'm in America and I have no idea how many people are sick or dying here. I have to rely on the government to tell me.
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Mar 31, 2020 23:47
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Preggo My Eggo! posted:It's not millions of people dropping dead simultaneously in the same town, like the bubonic plague. It's like, "On Wednesday the old man down the hall died in his apartment and the ambulance came to take it away. We watched it through the peephole of our apartment door." Times a million, spread out over a very large country, over a period of months.
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Mar 31, 2020 23:52
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Back in January and early February, Chinese people were extremely loving pissed by how the government had handled the outbreak. Online comments were overwhelming the censors. Everything was getting posted, and any auto filtering was quickly bypassed by creative poo poo like posting in Qing Dynasty script or Klingon. Party members I know were openly talking about how Xi had to go, that this was worse than Tiananmen, that the other senior party leaders were going to push Xi out. There were a few days when it honestly felt like there was about to be a major political shift in PRC. Then the US and a few other countries came onto the scene and poo poo their pants with such vigor that suddenly everyone's feeling like China didn't do so bad and maybe this surveillance authoritarianism thing is a good idea.
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Mar 31, 2020 23:57
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:Lets say it's zero point zero zero percent. So what? Owlofcreamcheese posted:Literally anyone can just go to china, people go to china all the time, Americans have gone to china, I've personally been to china, there is american citizens in china right now. There is 300,000 chinese citizen students on student visas IN the US right now from china. A bunch of teens who call their mom in beijing and would have no problem mentioning their mom died and it was covered up to twitter. This is you posting: Step 1: Go to an extreme (zero point zero zero) so you don't have to think too hard, and tack on a "so what" to make yourself feel clever. Step 2: Provide examples of some non-zero level of free speech, while failing to describe (or even think about) ways that China might have less speech freedom than the US. The essential argument you're making is "China has some level of free speech, therefore it's 100%." You're a dumbass and you didn't answer the question. You could just ignore the question if you don't want to respond to it, of course.
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Mar 31, 2020 23:58
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So speaking of case reporting, from the Boston Globe:quote:Holyoke death toll rises to 13, as mayor accuses suspended Soldiers’ Home director of concealing deaths https://www.bostonglobe.com/2020/03/31/metro/holyoke-mayor-accuses-suspended-soldiers-home-director-concealing-deaths/ (Holyoke is in Western Mass, near Springfield)
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Apr 1, 2020 00:01
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Chinese government controls the media. However there are many ways the Chinese people can access outside news. A lot of people are using VPNs to get around the Chinese firewall and people are extremely vocal about their opinions in China. China is nothing like North Korea.
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Apr 1, 2020 00:02
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Sampatrick posted:There absolutely is a ton of censorship in China but that doesn't mean that said censorship is an iron barrier. Yeah that's what I'm saying -- I'm recognizing that it's not an iron barrier, and accepting that anybody reasonable would also agree that China has some level of speech suppression. It's not one extreme or the other.
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Apr 1, 2020 00:02
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Preggo My Eggo! posted:Yeah that's what I'm saying -- I'm recognizing that it's not an iron barrier, and accepting that anybody reasonable would also agree that China has some level of speech suppression. It's not one extreme or the other. Yes, my criticism is that you turned the fact that they could suppress speech regarding Covid into an affirmation that they were - and in the process, you are lending credence to other people in this thread who are claiming hundreds of thousands of dead as a result of Covid. What I'm saying is that they absolutely could not suppress anything on that scale from having happened.
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Apr 1, 2020 00:04
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Other people don't speak for me. What I said is that they CAN suppress speech, therefore they ARE.
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Apr 1, 2020 00:07
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Preggo My Eggo! posted:Other people don't speak for me. What I said is that they CAN suppress speech, therefore they ARE. You can't possibly expect that it's reasonable to input something into a discussion and not have the surrounding discussion add context to what you are saying. Other people don't speak for you, but certainly the context in which you are saying something adds additional meaning to what you are saying.
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Apr 1, 2020 00:10
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Preggo My Eggo! posted:This is you posting: It doesn’t matter what level of free speech someone in China has. China is not some weird alien planet, people come and go frequently. Even if you believe a Chinese guy can’t tell you anything, there is literal American citizens in China and who have been to China recently and literal Chinese citizens in American and people have cell phones and email and we chat even if Facebook is restricted. Even if you can’t trust a single thing a Chinese person says it doesn’t matter, there are plenty of no Chinese in China or who have been to China or whatever. There is western reporters just in China all the time. It’s literally not some secret zone we don’t know things about.
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Apr 1, 2020 00:13
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youre dick posted:It's this. I'm getting a little crabby seeing China's numbers being used as some kind of metric against which others are to be measured. I don't see how anyone can claim with a strait face that after being a disinformation factory for it's entire existence that the ChiComs all of a sudden had an epiphany and decided to be completely honest about something that, when viewed in a certain light, can be said to reflect poorly on them If you want to be taken seriously, maybe don't use terms from the Rush Limbaugh show.
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Apr 1, 2020 00:14
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Malaria posted:Im a nurse. work in the ER, night shift, in West Michigan. It's just starting to get bad here. Thank you for doing what you're doing and good luck.
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Apr 1, 2020 00:16
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Sampatrick posted:You can't possibly expect that it's reasonable to input something into a discussion and not have the surrounding discussion add context to what you are saying. Other people don't speak for you, but certainly the context in which you are saying something adds additional meaning to what you are saying. It seems like the context is "One group of posters thinks millions are dead in China and the other camp thinks speech in China is 100% free -- which side are you on?" Given that, I guess I'm attempting to change the context of the discussion. That sort of extreme context prevents nuanced debate.
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Apr 1, 2020 00:18
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Preggo My Eggo! posted:It seems like the context is "One group of posters thinks millions are dead in China and the other camp thinks speech in China is 100% free -- which side are you on?" Given that, I guess I'm attempting to change the context of the discussion. That sort of extreme context prevents nuanced debate. Wheres the camp that things millions are dead and Everyones speech is 100% free and they all independently decided that hiding that fact is the best idea
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Apr 1, 2020 00:23
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The_Fuzzinator posted:Wheres the camp that things millions are dead and Everyones speech is 100% free and they all independently decided that hiding that fact is the best idea The White House?
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Apr 1, 2020 00:27
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Preggo My Eggo! posted:It seems like the context is "One group of posters thinks millions are dead in China and the other camp thinks speech in China is 100% free -- which side are you on?" Given that, I guess I'm attempting to change the context of the discussion. That sort of extreme context prevents nuanced debate. That was never the context of the other side and I am pretty confused as to how you came to that conclusion. Afaik, literally every single person saying that information would leak from China was also saying that there was censorship in China, it just couldn't cover up anything on the proposed scale. You're inventing a bit of a strawman here.
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Apr 1, 2020 00:27
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Dumb goons ITT think that China silencing one doctor in December is the same thing as silencing 80,000 doctors in February, and that the latter is even remotely feasible in an extremely online world.
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Apr 1, 2020 00:32
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So in some more positive Coronavirus related news, we have a letter from various Democratic Representatives/Senators formally pushing for the Trump administration to halt the sanctions on Iran:The Huffington Post posted:The congressional letter, shared with HuffPost ahead of its public release, is addressed to Secretary of State Mike Pompeo and Treasury Secretary Steve Mnuchin and led by Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (D-N.Y.). Notable signatories include Reps. Ilhan Omar (D-Minn.) and Barbara Lee (D-Calif.) and Sens. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.), Elizabeth Warren (D-Mass.) and Ed Markey (D-Mass.). I'm so incredibly happy that we're seeing a broader and more focused push to help end sanctions and help Iran more effectively combat the Coronavirus! God willing, we will do so and help prevent untold amounts of suffering and loss of human life. (Also, I apologize if this is more appropriate for the USPOL thread than this one. I was unsure of which thread would be better for it, but I wanted to share it: it seems like it's been a little while since we've had positive news like this.)
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Apr 1, 2020 00:34
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Yeah, the active denial of medical supplies for Iran by the US government is a crime against humanity and should stop.
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Apr 1, 2020 00:41
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https://twitter.com/sarahcpr/status/1245128704340131841
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Apr 1, 2020 00:44
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I'm not super into the coverup stuff but I guess I just have a hard time understanding how the virus started in china, spread to the rest of the world, but most of China was relatively untouched. It seems like it's so infectious that shouldn't have been possible.
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Apr 1, 2020 00:48
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beejay posted:I'm not super into the coverup stuff but I guess I just have a hard time understanding how the virus started in china, spread to the rest of the world, but most of China was relatively untouched. It seems like it's so infectious that shouldn't have been possible. They completely locked down a province of 60 million people, put in place strict policies in every other place, and threw every resource of the state at it. Some contagious people left the country before that lockdown. Some of those people went to places that handled the situation smartly (e.g., Singapore, Taiwan, et al). Some of them went to places that jammed their heads deeper into the sand.
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Apr 1, 2020 00:53
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I get the feeling Trumps not going to win New York in November
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Apr 1, 2020 00:55
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Smeef posted:They completely locked down a province of 60 million people, put in place strict policies in every other place, and threw every resource of the state at it. Yeah I guess I'm overestimating the "lockdowns" in America. My neighbor leaves several times a day to do who knows what, and we're supposed to be "essential travel only" here.
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Apr 1, 2020 00:58
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PT6A posted:Except everyone was talking about what craaaazy severe restrictions China had put in place to control the spread of the virus, how they were welding doors shut, how they were restricting movement, etc. Yeah this is why the Chinese coverup conspiracy stuff is dumb. I'm prepared to believe there is significant underreporting of deaths due to a combination of diagnostic limitations and deceit to maintain governmental legitimacy and avoid panic, but every country engaged in this to some extent, and the talk about the Chinese cover-up is inextricably linked with westerners blaming China for causing this problem - "If only they'd been transparent about how serious this was we would have been able to stop it" - while for months western media and governments were gleefully reporting how China was massively overreacting with unreasonable, tyrranical measures, as befits cruel despotic orientals.
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Apr 1, 2020 00:59
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Uncle Wemus posted:I get the feeling Trumps not going to win New York in November He did win the primary this year.
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Apr 1, 2020 00:59
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Uncle Wemus posted:I get the feeling Trumps not going to win New York in November It just wouldn't be this thread and USPOL if somebody didn't come in to say this at least once a day.
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Apr 1, 2020 01:00
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beejay posted:Yeah I guess I'm overestimating the "lockdowns" in America. My neighbor leaves several times a day to do who knows what, and we're supposed to be "essential travel only" here. If they walled up every road leaving your town, blockaded alternate exits to your building, took your temperature leaving your home and in every public location and locked you down in a flu clinic if you showed any symptoms until you were proven not to have the coronavirus then you’d be approaching a China style lockdown. The non-mandatory suggestions in the states so far don’t really compare, although arresting people that open up businesses/churches prematurely is definitely a good idea.
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Apr 1, 2020 01:04
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personally i'd take a plague that kills 5% of the population every century if it means i can criticize the president without being killed in an execution van. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 1, 2020 01:04
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human garbage bag posted:personally i'd take a plague that kills 5% of the population every century if it means i can criticize the president without being killed in an execution van. Weird false dichotomy no one asked for.
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Apr 1, 2020 01:09
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beejay posted:Yeah I guess I'm overestimating the "lockdowns" in America. My neighbor leaves several times a day to do who knows what, and we're supposed to be "essential travel only" here. They were allowing one person per household out once every like 3 or 7 days to buy groceries and there were cops roaming around with thermometers and at the entrances to stores and apartment buildings. Also notably, covid first popped up in late december and by the end of the 3rd week in january they were in lockdown and building emergency hospitals from scratch in hubei. All things considered it was an exceptionally quick response. The idea that they took months to react is the stupidest poo poo ever quote:23 January This is a surprisingly in depth and exhaustive timeline, the february and march ones are good, too https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_2019%E2%80%9320_coronavirus_pandemic_in_November_2019_%E2%80%93_January_2020 Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 01:22 on Apr 1, 2020 |
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Apr 1, 2020 01:12
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Herstory Begins Now posted:They were allowing one person per household out once every like 3 or 7 days to buy groceries and there were cops roaming around with thermometers and at the entrances to stores and apartment buildings. That sounds good. That's what I'm doing anyway, but I'm concerned that other people are not doing that.
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Apr 1, 2020 01:14
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PT6A posted:That sounds good. That's what I'm doing anyway, but I'm concerned that other people are not doing that. It’s not that feasible in places like New York City where you are limited by what you can carry, and what you have room to store.
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Apr 1, 2020 01:20
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human garbage bag posted:personally i'd take a plague that kills 5% of the population every century if it means i can criticize the president without being killed in an execution van. lol we have government-sanctioned concentration camps in this country right now shut the gently caress up
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Apr 1, 2020 01:21
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Herstory Begins Now posted:They were allowing one person per household out once every like 3 or 7 days to buy groceries and there were cops roaming around with thermometers and at the entrances to stores and apartment buildings. Also notably, covid first popped up in late december and by the end of the 3rd week in january they were in lockdown and building emergency hospitals from scratch in hubei. All things considered it was an exceptionally quick response. The idea that they took months to react is the stupidest poo poo ever fwiw officials were definitely downplaying the situation in early january although its questionable whether or not this was a good or bad thing
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Apr 1, 2020 01:22
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TyrantWD posted:It’s not that feasible in places like New York City where you are limited by what you can carry, and what you have room to store. That sounds insane. I've been doing this in a city, living in an apartment and walking to the grocery store. If even one person in your household is physically able, you can do this, and if not, order delivery. EDIT: I mean, if anything it's far, far more feasible in a city than in a suburban or rural area for someone without a car. PT6A fucked around with this message at 01:27 on Apr 1, 2020 |
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Apr 1, 2020 01:23
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Sampatrick posted:fwiw officials were definitely downplaying the situation in early january although its questionable whether or not this was a good or bad thing Yeah, and to their actual credit, about a week later they realized how completely hosed they were if they didn't do anything and they rolled out the full pandemic response playbook about a week later.
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Apr 1, 2020 01:23
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Herstory Begins Now posted:Yeah, and to their actual credit, about a week later they realized how completely hosed they were if they didn't do anything and they rolled out the full pandemic response playbook about a week later. Man, remember when Trump said we had 15 cases and it would be zero soon. Simpler times. Someone should do something about this guy, he doesn't seem to know what he's doing. I can't even imagine what 2 weeks from now is going to look like. Just pure loving hell.
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Apr 1, 2020 01:26
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