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ZogrimAteMyHamster posted:Edit: My experience with SMB3 two-player mode: never get past 1-1 because all you do is battle-mode each other at the beginning I wasn't unhappy with this, to be clear. That said, Mario's two-player mode for most games was just a time-sharing arrangement. I get to play, then you get to play, then I get to play again. Sonic's two-player mode actually tried to get both players involved at the same time. So in a sense Sonic had the more ambitious two-player modes, but Mario had the more practical one since kids really just needed the time-share so they wouldn't fight over who gets to play. Neither was really good for multiplayer, especially by modern standards.
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Apr 20, 2020 21:22
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It's kind of shocking that Sonic actually comes out massively ahead on the live action movie front, not that that's a high bar, but still. I've always felt that the original sin with Sonic was that the first three games were minor iterations on each other at best. Also doesn't help that the franchise was basically a generation late to 3D after the rest of the industry had mostly gotten out of the awkward puberty stage. While SMB2 gets a lot of mockery for being Doki Doki Panic dressed up, it did have a clear influence on the franchise from that point on, and being a very different kind of game while within the same genre meant a lot of that influence was new and different ideas. SMB3 was very different in its own way, and Super Mario World brought together a bunch of ideas from all of the above while introducing its own stuff. There's arguably a lot of Hegalian dialectic style game design discussion to be had, but the short version is- the idea of what 'A Mario Game' could be was broadened from the very start. Mario 64 may not have aged well in some ways, but it's interesting to examine in context because it's basically Nintendo reinventing the platformer for 3D from scratch, and incorporating and experimenting with all kinds of new ideas, carefully introducing them to the player with devices like the camera being an an actual camera with Lakitu, and stages with signs that tutorialise things like various jumps and moves, though you have everything from the start. And it's STILL notable for a 3D platformer to have a feeling of weight and momentum like Mario does. Sonic, on the other hand... really didn't broaden horizons much at all, and it says something even the 2D games are basically wallowing in nostalgia/clinging to a format which doesn't make the fans as mad, and even then they failed to learn or broaden from the experiments that the Sonic Advance and Rush games made. Every 3D Sonic game has been a desperate overreaction to everything the last one was criticised for, but they really fail to tackle the core issue that the movement and platforming just handles like poo poo and the obsession with 'speed' makes for both awful level design as ideally you blow past everything too quickly (so they try all manner of fake longevity tricks) and basically no room for actual precision of any kind, it's all trial and error. It's the level of design for third-rate kids platformers like Croc, but even they understand their limitations and let you take your time.
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Apr 24, 2020 07:48
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My biggest problem with the Sonic games is how they don't really encourage you to get good. I played through Sonic Mania, but I had to stop after a while because all I was doing was juggling one ring and just bumbling through the game, rarely ever dying, but never feeling like I was doing a good job either. The ring mechanic is honestly the worst. It allows you to play really sloppy and still get through. Sure, you can say "just don't do that," but maybe your game mechanics should be designed around playing the game well. That's what I like about Mario. When you beat a level, it's because you faced a challenge, overcame it, and got genuinely better at the game.
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Apr 27, 2020 17:58
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Cemetry Gator posted:My biggest problem with the Sonic games is how they don't really encourage you to get good. I played through Sonic Mania, but I had to stop after a while because all I was doing was juggling one ring and just bumbling through the game, rarely ever dying, but never feeling like I was doing a good job either. I absolutely get this however try and look at it like they give you a lot of bonuses for playing well and keeping those rings. Bonus stages, emeralds, ultimately leading to being super sonic and kicking some rear end.
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Apr 27, 2020 18:03
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For me, Mario 64 sticks out over other platformers of the generation because it's a lot more open world and free form. Many others were basically a corridor you ran down while avoiding obstacles. More faithful to a 2D platformer, but the weaker experience in my opinion. Look at Bob-omb battlefield. It just dumps you at the bottom of the hill, and you need to get to the top. There are a ton of ways to do it, or you can just gently caress around and explore, or get other stars. It also seemed a lot less jank than most others, and while the camera sucked, it was the best at the time.
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Apr 27, 2020 18:47
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Kazvall posted:I absolutely get this however try and look at it like they give you a lot of bonuses for playing well and keeping those rings. Bonus stages, emeralds, ultimately leading to being super sonic and kicking some rear end. Right, but to get the emeralds, I have to get good at bonus stages that aren't part of the main gameplay loop. So basically, my reward for being good is to play a different game that I have to get good at so I can get the best reward? It's a stupid system that just kills the reward feedback loop for me.
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Apr 27, 2020 20:02
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Cemetry Gator posted:Right, but to get the emeralds, I have to get good at bonus stages that aren't part of the main gameplay loop. So basically, my reward for being good is to play a different game that I have to get good at so I can get the best reward? So you're saying that when you beat a special stage in Sonic, it's because you faced a challenge, overcame it, and got genuinely better at the game. Or you're saying that when you've gotten to the end of a level in Sonic without getting hit every three seconds, at high speed, carrying a huge amount of rings that raise your score and thus give you extra lives, it's because you faced a challenge, overcame it, and got genuinely better at the game. You don't like systems that allow less skilled players to progress due to having effectively infinite life/health, such as, I don't know, piles of extra lives, and things like auto-invincibility Raccoon Leaves or the like.
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Apr 28, 2020 05:09
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Orcs and Ostriches posted:For me, Mario 64 sticks out over other platformers of the generation because it's a lot more open world and free form. Many others were basically a corridor you ran down while avoiding obstacles. More faithful to a 2D platformer, but the weaker experience in my opinion. The very first thing the game does is dump you in an idyllic garden to gently caress around in. Really sets the tone and doesn't let up. (well mostly, a lot of the later stages are much more linear. The Bowser stages in particular are basically proto Mario Galaxy) Mario Odyssey was a nice return to form. For a lot of the game I'd just go gently caress around in a new corner of the map and find half a dozen moons in the process.
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Apr 28, 2020 12:59
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Kurui Reiten posted:So you're saying that when you beat a special stage in Sonic, it's because you faced a challenge, overcame it, and got genuinely better at the game. No. I'm saying that in order to beat Sonic truly, you have to get good at a game that is completely different than the main game. Which you aren't able to easily play because in order to play, you have to be good at the main gameplay loop. That's bad game design. There's a key difference from the systems you're listing from the Mario games and the ring juggling system - in the Mario games, I have to make an active choice to turn them on, where in the Sonic games, I have to make an active choice not to use a gameplay mechanic. Sure, I can choose to get better, but there's nothing actively encouraging me to improve. When I beat a level in Sonic, it's because I bumbled through to the end, but in Mario, it's because I had to rise to the challenge.
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Apr 28, 2020 19:39
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Sonic 1 > Mario 1 Sonic 2 > Mario 2 Mario 3 > Sonic 3 Sonic wins 2 to 1. edit: wait there are more with the same titles: Mario Advance > Sonic Advance Mario Advance 2 > Sonic Advance 2 Mario Advance 3 > Sonic Advance 3 So I guess Mario wins 4 to 2. wa27 fucked around with this message at 20:40 on Apr 28, 2020 |
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Apr 28, 2020 20:34
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I think the real question is Tails or Luigi?
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Apr 28, 2020 20:42
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I grew up with both Mario and Sonic games. I played the poo poo out of the Mario games and I hated the Sonic games. They were just so sloppy and poorly made and not fun at all. I honestly also think Super Mario Sunshine kind of sucks, too, but I spent a billion hours playing that, Super Mario 64, and Super Mario Land 1 & 2 on Game Boy. I grew up in the N64/Gamecube era so I was playing Sonic Adventure DX and Sonic Adventure 2, Sonic Heroes, the ones on the Wii with the motion sensing. All awful. I went back and tried Sonic 1 and I thought that sucked too, so I'm just fine without wasting my time trying to play Sonic anymore. Maybe Sonic is good again now, but I have vivid memories of being an 11 year old on the GameFAQs forums and continually seeing people shout "Sonic is good again now!!" only to be burned after renting whichever new game at Blockbuster. wa27 posted:I think the real question is Tails or Luigi? Now this is easy. Luigi wins by a mile. Mustache, charming personality, soothing color scheme, quirky spin-off series, he's the sidekick GOAT
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Apr 28, 2020 21:14
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wa27 posted:Sonic 1 > Mario 1 what the gently caress is this poo poo sonic 1 sucks rear end
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Apr 28, 2020 22:02
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DEEP STATE PLOT posted:what the gently caress is this poo poo sonic 1 sucks rear end I don't see any vertical scrolling in SMB1 
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Apr 28, 2020 22:24
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ZogrimAteMyHamster posted:I don't see any vertical scrolling in SMB1 Yeah. Because SMB1 perfected horizontal scrolling, that all other games needed to add vertical.
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Apr 28, 2020 22:30
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All the classic sonic games had a rad level where you run fast with lots of sweet loops and jumps, while doing boss kickflips off enemy heads while listening to sweetass music. The rest are full of slow elevators/platforms, sloppy platforming, slow swimming, and a bunch of back and forth where you lose your momentum each time you turn. Speedruns aren't even fun because half of them are just clipping into a wall, getting zipped to all hell, and hoping you don't softlock the game. Ice Cap Zone has some of the best music ever though.
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Apr 29, 2020 04:47
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Cemetry Gator posted:No. My point is that all the complaints you have about Sonic games can very, very easily be transferred to Mario games. Mushrooms in place of Rings, Mario tossing out extra lives like packing peanuts, levels that have bullshit parts that are easier to tank through with mercy invincibility than just doing without getting hit. You say you get through a level in Sonic by bumbling through it, but you can absolutely do the same thing with Mario. The point of games like those are to try to NOT completely suck at the levels. If get through a Sonic level by falling flat on your face, then you didn't rise to the challenge. If you get through a Mario level after taking every single hit available and using tons of extra lives, you didn't rise to the challenge. Complaining about Sonic's special stages is almost valid, except that they're still valid parts of the game. They are an added challenge for players, but that's why they have a massive reward in the form of Super Sonic or the like.
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Apr 29, 2020 08:08
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Kurui Reiten posted:Complaining about Sonic's special stages is almost valid, except that they're still valid parts of the game. They are an added challenge for players, but that's why they have a massive reward in the form of Super Sonic or the like. The Special Stages in Sonic 1 can eat every flavour of poo poo though.
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Apr 29, 2020 08:29
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ZogrimAteMyHamster posted:The Special Stages in Sonic 1 can eat every flavour of poo poo though. Well, yeah, but Sonic 1 is like Megaman 1, where you can definitely see all the parts of the game the next one would perfect, but they're not quite there yet.
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Apr 29, 2020 09:12
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Kurui Reiten posted:My point is that all the complaints you have about Sonic games can very, very easily be transferred to Mario games. Mushrooms in place of Rings, Mario tossing out extra lives like packing peanuts, levels that have bullshit parts that are easier to tank through with mercy invincibility than just doing without getting hit. When you get hit in Mario, you don't have a mushroom come flying out, unless you have one in reserve. It's also a big stretch to go from criticizing the ring juggling which is part of the gameplay mechanic, to trying to apply that to all power ups. And I don't view extra lives as the same thing. I think limited lives is usually a not great mechanic, but in order to beat the level, I still have to master it to since extent. And sure, there are places where you might cheese through a Mario game, but you can only do it very rarely (since you have limited power ups), and by design, it's usually not doable. Sonic encourages sloppy play. To say Mario does the same requires us to view extra lives as the same as the ring juggling mechanic. Oh, and that bullshit where Sonic has limited continues? You want to take me on? quote:Complaining about Sonic's special stages is almost valid, except that they're still valid parts of the game. They are an added challenge for players, but that's why they have a massive reward in the form of Super Sonic or the like. I'm glad my opinion is almost valid. The special stages are just tech demos of what the genesis could do, and once they lose their shock value, you're left with something that prevents you from truly beating the game unless you get good at it. Like, beating a Sonic game and then getting a bad ending because I didn't learn your stupid minigame? That's a gently caress you that Mario doesn't pull. And if you disagree with me about the minigames, that's cool. Your opinion is perfectly valid.
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Apr 29, 2020 13:56
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The Chaos Emeralds are kind of integral to the whole story of Sonic though, so it makes sense you'd get a bad ending for not collecting them all. Sonic on the Master System/Game Gear had the right idea by hiding them in the stages themselves though. Made you want to actually explore the levels as opposed to just rushing straight through them.
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Apr 29, 2020 14:33
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My point is that you're complaining that Sonic games don't encourage you to get good, as you can beat a level while taking a long time and a lot of damage. Meanwhile, you're praising Mario games for making you get good, because they give you a lot of time and hits and lives to beat a level with. If you don't like the gameplay of Sonic, that's fine, but most of your complaints seem to stem from "I don't feel like I'm good at Sonic, and I'm blaming the game for that because I can just tank hits forever and still get an ending. It is the game's fault that I'm bad, not my own, because I am not forced to do no-hit runs to succeed." You being bad at a game does not make the game itself bad.
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May 1, 2020 07:14
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Kurui Reiten posted:My point is that you're complaining that Sonic games don't encourage you to get good, as you can beat a level while taking a long time and a lot of damage. Meanwhile, you're praising Mario games for making you get good, because they give you a lot of time and hits and lives to beat a level with. You're reminding me of another reason why I prefer Mario to Sonic. I've met far more insufferable Sonic fans.
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May 2, 2020 05:56
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Cemetry Gator posted:You're reminding me of another reason why I prefer Mario to Sonic. I've met far more insufferable Sonic fans. It's okay to not like something you're bumbling along at.
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May 2, 2020 06:57
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Cemetry Gator posted:You're reminding me of another reason why I prefer Mario to Sonic. I've met far more insufferable Sonic fans. that's great and all but dude is 100% right, your arguments are a hot load of nonsense and reductive as all hell. and i'm saying that as someone who laughs maniacally at anyone who seriously tries to argue that sonic is better than, or even equal to, mario.
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May 2, 2020 07:38
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Cemetry Gator posted:You're reminding me of another reason why I prefer Mario to Sonic. I've met far more insufferable Sonic fans. He's not wrong though. e: f,b
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May 2, 2020 07:53
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I used to be a Sonic fan, (well, I prefer to say recovering) and holy poo poo, I still have PTSD flashbacks. And I didn't even mind all the furries. I've long had a lot of theories, including that the fanbase impressively contains every possible kind of horrible fan in significant numbers. (except maybe nazis) They've gone a lot more quiet in recent years, but I still have the theory that a huge chunk of bronies are former Sonic fans who brought every last one of their bad habits with them. (and that's where all the nazis went)
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May 2, 2020 11:05
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DEEP STATE PLOT posted:that's great and all but dude is 100% right, your arguments are a hot load of nonsense and reductive as all hell. and i'm saying that as someone who laughs maniacally at anyone who seriously tries to argue that sonic is better than, or even equal to, mario. Okay, what am I saying that is reductive and nonsensical. I don't want to repeat myself, and think saying the same thing again is somehow going to make it make more sense. Edit: and just to be clear, I'm not trying to call you out. Rather, I want to better understand what I'm not expressing clearly, if for nothing else than my own personal gain. I really felt like words were being put into my mouth, and so if there's the possibility that I'm saying something different than what I'm saying, I want to figure out where I went worng. Cemetry Gator fucked around with this message at 15:05 on May 2, 2020 |
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May 2, 2020 13:59
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Cemetry Gator posted:Okay, what am I saying that is reductive and nonsensical. I don't want to repeat myself, and think saying the same thing again is somehow going to make it make more sense. You're blaming a game mechanic that isn't an issue for the vast majority of players on you being bad at Sonic games. You're also trying to claim that somehow Mario is more challenging than Sonic because it doesn't give you the option to complete it via stumbling through levels (it totally does.)
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May 3, 2020 06:52
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Dell_Zincht posted:You're blaming a game mechanic that isn't an issue for the vast majority of players on you being bad at Sonic games. To the first point, that's a difference of opinion. I don't feel that the Sonic games push me to get better at them. Reading up online, it seems like a lot of fans of Sonic games feel that the punishment in the game for sloppy play is to go slow, where going fast is the reward, and death is really a measure of last resort. That's something that just doesn't resonate for me, and leads to a game that I feel is boring, and so I don't feel any motivation to get good. The way I measure progress is being able to get to the next level. To the second point - I think it's worth talking more about what we mean by stumbling through. I feel like we hold to very different ideas of what that means, and it was on me to define my view more clearly since I brought it up. I failed to do that. And trying to dig deeper is not going to help me make my point better.
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May 3, 2020 16:25
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The whole philosophy of Mario level design from the very start was to reward exploration and provide multiple avenues to finishing levels. The whole point being things like bonus areas, warp zones and hidden powerups give you rewards for thinking outside the box. The world maps in SMB3 and World actually mean something as you can find bonus levels, short cuts and beat the game in a handful of exits or find every one, and Switch Palaces basically function as a reward for going out of your way by making levels easier.
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May 4, 2020 07:17
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Ghost Leviathan posted:Mario 64 may not have aged well in some ways, but it's interesting to examine in context because it's basically Nintendo reinventing the platformer for 3D from scratch, and incorporating and experimenting with all kinds of new ideas, carefully introducing them to the player with devices like the camera being an an actual camera with Lakitu, and stages with signs that tutorialise things like various jumps and moves, though you have everything from the start. And it's STILL notable for a 3D platformer to have a feeling of weight and momentum like Mario does. Depending on the metric Mario 64 might be one of the games that best aged of that time period, if not the game. A lot of people far younger than it made their careers speedrunning and playing that game.
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May 4, 2020 21:17
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Elentor posted:Depending on the metric Mario 64 might be one of the games that best aged of that time period, if not the game. A lot of people far younger than it made their careers speedrunning and playing that game. I'd say it's an interesting example because it's so obviously a product of its time, but a GOOD one. It's basically got the perfect mix of good design, jankiness, open-ended gameplay and ubiquity to make it excellent for speedruns, glitches, weird gimmicks and general screwing around. You can clearly see Nintendo tried to recapture at least some of that magic with Odyssey, with its open-ended level design and piles of coins hidden in places that you'd never expect players to get to normally.
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May 6, 2020 15:14
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Cemetry Gator posted:To the second point - I think it's worth talking more about what we mean by stumbling through. I feel like we hold to very different ideas of what that means, and it was on me to define my view more clearly since I brought it up. I failed to do that. And trying to dig deeper is not going to help me make my point better. I was surprised so many people disagreed with you, because I agree completely that the ring mechanic sucks, and I think I might be able to articulate why. It feels to me like Sonic games punish you for making mistakes by being annoying. You get hit and the game plays a loud shrill sound, you lose control of your character for a couple seconds, and then you’re chasing down rings like you just spilled a bag of marbles. Annoyance is a completely subjective experience. If people reply and tell me they think it’s more annoying to become small Mario, I’ll just say, “fair enough.” But it feels annoying to me, and I suspect many people have issues with the Sonic games feel the same way. And I played a lot of Sonic 1 and 2 as a kid and got to the point where I was able to beat them really easily, yet I still remember being irritated at the feedback the game gives you for making mistakes. To be fair, Yoshi’s Island would be improved if Baby Mario didn’t constantly wail from the time you get hit to when you recover him.
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May 6, 2020 23:52
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Apparently they specifically made Baby Mario's wail annoying because otherwise playtesters didn't realise the importance of getting him back.
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May 7, 2020 08:21
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Yoshi's Island proved to me that I would be a terrible father.
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May 7, 2020 12:59
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Ghost Leviathan posted:Apparently they specifically made Baby Mario's wail annoying because otherwise playtesters didn't realise the importance of getting him back. Evolution works!
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May 7, 2020 14:10
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Yoshi Wins posted:It feels to me like Sonic games punish you for making mistakes by being annoying. You get hit and the game plays a loud shrill sound, you lose control of your character for a couple seconds, and then you’re chasing down rings like you just spilled a bag of marbles. I've noticed that the sounds are even worse in emulators. On a real Genesis, due to the lovely sound circuits, they do some degree of filtering and soften things a bit. Turning on the low-pass filter a lot of newer emulators offer helps a lot with this. I never play without it anymore.
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May 18, 2020 01:36
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