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loving wonderful write-up. Honestly, I think I was waiting for this write-up more than any other episode, and it delivered.
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Apr 23, 2020 22:19
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God drat, I forgot how much that "dump a bunch of toxic poo poo into and already polluted river" scene really bothered me on my first watch. I know these guys get up to horrible poo poo on the regular but for some reason the complete and utter disdain for the water and the environment they live in struck a chord that the show hadn't hit before.
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Apr 23, 2020 22:58
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It's something we see time and again from Tony, getting worse as he ages and becomes more stubborn. He'll lash out in a moment for the immediate satisfaction he thinks it will bring him, and then gets surly or upset when he realizes it not only didn't make him feel good (or only fleetingly) but that now he has to deal with the consequences of his outburst. He's a child throwing temper tantrums then sulking because he's getting punished or made to feel bad for it.... but he's also an enormous and powerful (not just physically) grown man which makes him simultaneously dangerous AND pathetic.banned from Starbucks posted:drat newborn not giving me any great grandchildren! She's been mooching off her mother for long enough, it's time to get out there into the world and make something of herself, goddammit! Fixed now 
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Apr 23, 2020 23:03
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BiggerBoat posted:God drat, I forgot how much that "dump a bunch of toxic poo poo into and already polluted river" scene really bothered me on my first watch. I know these guys get up to horrible poo poo on the regular but for some reason the complete and utter disdain for the water and the environment they live in struck a chord that the show hadn't hit before. Have you ever taken the train from pen station to Newark?
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Apr 23, 2020 23:21
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Bip Roberts posted:Have you ever taken the train from pen station to Newark? Oh yeah. I grew up in Delaware, lived in Philadelphia when I grew older and remember seeing the river look like an oil slick every time I landed at Philadelphia airport. ... Jeruslalem's post was (rightfully) hard on Tony as the opportunistic piece of poo poo he is, but I'd be lying if I didn't see Christopher's murder as mercy killing in some ways, at least in mafia terms. The family had already bent over backwards and given passes and special consideration to Chris (the mob staging an intervention?) even as he continuously climbed up the ladder. I think the car seat was there to add to the overall calculation - quick math as it were - that was entering Tony's head when he did what he did. It's not excusing what he did, especially the enabling he did to run Chris off the wagon in the first place, suffice it to say that following mob logic and the fact that Chris was using AGAIN, along with having no real future in the family or otherwise, that I see his murder as much along the lines as putting a pet down as I do a convenient out for Tony. I'm not equating putting a dog to sleep with murdering your surrogate son, but I'll proffer that if you are in the mafia, you can see it that way. Tony, in some ways that might equal the convenient "out" he was given, may have viewed it as an act of mercy in his own twisted mind. The mob is not set up and structured to deal with ideas like rehabilitation, forgiveness or even psychiatric therapy. Christopher's murder was opportunistic and convenient in many ways but also hit me as a matter of resignation for a person working this type of "job".
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Apr 23, 2020 23:49
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The duck sounds they added to the scene where they dump the asbestos into the wetlands is a nice touch after Phils "you have a pool? dump it there" line.
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Apr 24, 2020 00:11
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BiggerBoat posted:The mob is not set up and structured to deal with ideas like rehabilitation, forgiveness or even psychiatric therapy. Christopher's murder was opportunistic and convenient in many ways but also hit me as a matter of resignation for a person working this type of "job". Like Tony says at one point, if it had been anybody else they would have been put out to pasture ages ago.
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Apr 24, 2020 00:23
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Ishamael posted:
Same. I think that's the underlying theme of the series, really. Everyone is still greedy, still dying, still fighting...and handing it down to their kids. RE: "I Get it" I don't think it's any more deep than Tony having a perceived spiritual breakthrough with an hallucinogen. It's pretty common and even if it was a peeling away of the layers of the mind and the lens of perception, I don't think he "got" anything, any more than he did from the coma. No one is changing. He's still an adulterer, a murderer and a criminal. Maybe that's what he "gets" and views it all as life cycle. I've always found myself wondering the significance of the #24, which could be nothing, but Chase tends to do these things for a reason, usually, but I can't hang my hat on what 24 might mean. BiggerBoat fucked around with this message at 00:43 on Apr 24, 2020 |
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Apr 24, 2020 00:41
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BiggerBoat posted:I've always found myself wondering the significance of the #24, which could be nothing, but Chase tends to do these things for a reason, usually, but I can't hang my hat on what 24 might mean. 
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Apr 24, 2020 03:40
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Enjoy this
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Apr 24, 2020 06:25
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JethroMcB posted:Enjoy this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7Fjawhqtgw
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Apr 24, 2020 08:49
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Not gonna lie, it seem weird to me how such a massive liability as Chris is being described as a minor irritation. And it's not like you can loving retire from that poo poo, it's a goddamn blood oath. Oh, and gently caress Big Bang. Goddamn garbage.
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Apr 24, 2020 11:17
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BrotherJayne posted:Not gonna lie, it seem weird to me how such a massive liability as Chris is being described as a minor irritation. More of a liability than any of the other guys? Each and every one of them has personality flaws that could easily get them caught and then they could potentially be flipped. If anything, Chris has proven his reliability because he actually did have a clear opportunity to flip and instead he chose to participate in the murder of his own fiance. Which of the other guys have gone to those lengths to protect the Family? The "liability" Chris represented really only exists because the other guys refuse to acknowledge and accept the challenges an addict faces. It was yet another failing of the mob "code" where these problems can't be acknowledged or discussed, but if you do run into trouble you're considered a problem that needs to be taken care of. It's the core hypocrisy of the whole thing. Of course in any sort of real family all measures would be taken to help someone with addiction problems, but this isn't a real family. It's a business, and the family bullshit is just a story they have to tell themselves in order to justify the horrible things they do to protect their financial interests. And as soon as any one person becomes more effort than they are "worth", it's time for them to go. That's not how families are supposed to work.
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Apr 24, 2020 15:09
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One of the (many, many) hosed up aspects of Adriana's murder is that, if it were the other way around, Tony never would have taken out Carmela, or let anyone else do it.
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Apr 24, 2020 15:12
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Basebf555 posted:More of a liability than any of the other guys? Each and every one of them has personality flaws that could easily get them caught and then they could potentially be flipped. One of Tony Sirico's things was making the writers promise Paulie would never flip. That said clearly he would absolutely sell the DiMeos out to another family so the point still stands.
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Apr 24, 2020 15:43
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The mob is your boss telling you to not form a union because we are like a family. Just instead of cutting your wages or firing you the moment things get tough or your productivity drops or you mildly annoy the owner... They just kill you instead.
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Apr 24, 2020 16:54
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Basebf555 posted:More of a liability than any of the other guys? Each and every one of them has personality flaws that could easily get them caught and then they could potentially be flipped. He's a junkie, which firmly places him on the customer side of "This Thing" Either he never should have been Made, or Tony should have insured better development, either personally or by giving him a Rabbi. Or was Paulie supposed to be his Rabbi?
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Apr 24, 2020 18:48
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The main point is the business argument is more a cover than anything. His death is more about Tony being disappointed on a personal level
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Apr 24, 2020 20:39
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The Sessions book says Silvio is the owner of the Bing, is that correct?
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Apr 25, 2020 02:51
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Yeah, that's been pretty well established throughout the series and explicitly stated more than once. I think that Tony might hold some kind of stake in it as well but that might be more a "he's the Boss so all our businesses are his" type thing?
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Apr 25, 2020 03:15
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That's how I've always taken it. I imagine that Silvio's name is on all the paperwork because he's probably the "cleanest" guy in the crew, he handles the day-to-day of the Bing - but everything gets kicked up to Tony eventually.
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Apr 25, 2020 04:41
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The Bing probably covers the w2s for some of them too. Do we ever see what Tony does for clean income after Barone is sold?
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Apr 25, 2020 04:41
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One of the things we saw was that he owns buildings where storefronts pay rent (as well as providing free services, like the chicken place) which is an efficient way to legally and officially get protection money. I don't know if he was legally on paper as being invested/part owner of any of Beansie's pizza places or not.
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Apr 25, 2020 04:53
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He negotiates with John to be kept on as an employee of Barone for 10 years after the sale. Im assuming the Frelinghuysen Ave property he flipped with Zelman was legit too. We know a lot of his real estate stuff is legit if Jamba Juice is coming directly to him banned from Starbucks fucked around with this message at 05:01 on Apr 25, 2020 |
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Apr 25, 2020 04:58
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If I remember right, the Frelinghuysen Ave scam (which he repeated with a number of properties, that's part of what caused the fight with Carmine) was absolutely NOT "legit". The front people they had pulling the scam were getting a cut but most of the money was going to Tony and his guys who were bankrolling it without even the fig leaf of being "silent partners". That's even if you set aside the fact they were falsifying reports and scamming cash from HUD as well.
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Apr 25, 2020 05:26
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Jerusalem posted:If I remember right, the Frelinghuysen Ave scam (which he repeated with a number of properties, that's part of what caused the fight with Carmine) was absolutely NOT "legit". The front people they had pulling the scam were getting a cut but most of the money was going to Tony and his guys who were bankrolling it without even the fig leaf of being "silent partners". That's even if you set aside the fact they were falsifying reports and scamming cash from HUD as well. The Frelinghuysen thing was just property he bought from Junior that he flipped because Zellman made the area hot from the esplanade (which Junior was clueless about). It wasnt really a scam. HUD was scam done later tho also involving Zellman. As for other legit income theres the plumbers union and hes prob a part owner of Satriales. I dont think theres too much else since during the divorce Carmella admits their tax return is bullshit and thats without knowing all of the other poo poo he gets from being boss. banned from Starbucks fucked around with this message at 05:44 on Apr 25, 2020 |
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Apr 25, 2020 05:39
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Yeah you're absolutely right, I conflated the two in my head.
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Apr 25, 2020 05:52
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Casting my vote that, yeah, Chris is a bigger liability than most - if not all - of the other dudes. Being strung out on smack renders a person unemployable in any line of work, especially the mob. Christ. And even if he's clean the threat of a relapse at any time is a retremendous issue. I mean, it's loving heroin and the needle. I honestly can't think of anyone in the crew that you could argue is a bigger problem overall.
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Apr 25, 2020 15:46
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BiggerBoat posted:Casting my vote that, yeah, Chris is a bigger liability than most - if not all - of the other dudes. Being strung out on smack renders a person unemployable in any line of work, especially the mob. Christ. And even if he's clean the threat of a relapse at any time is a retremendous issue. I mean, it's loving heroin and the needle. Junior. And Richie. But those get handled pretty quickly, in terms of "Tony Time" units
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Apr 25, 2020 17:53
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BiggerBoat posted:Casting my vote that, yeah, Chris is a bigger liability than most - if not all - of the other dudes. Being strung out on smack renders a person unemployable in any line of work, especially the mob. Christ. And even if he's clean the threat of a relapse at any time is a retremendous issue. I mean, it's loving heroin and the needle. Paulie playing double agent was a pretty big liability for 2 seasons. Hell, we even found our Eugene was talking to the feds too. For who knows how long.
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Apr 25, 2020 17:58
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I don't think Chris ever showed a sign that he was likely to snitch even if his life was a wreck.
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Apr 25, 2020 18:16
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Bip Roberts posted:I don't think Chris ever showed a sign that he was likely to snitch even if his life was a wreck. He literally turned his informant fiancé over to be killed instead of snitching. Even if his motivation was that he didn't want to be poor, he stayed loyle to his capo.
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Apr 25, 2020 18:19
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Eugene being an informant made me think of Ray Curto also being revealed to be one. He'd been diming on Tony for I don't know how long and you'd think a captain would be hooked in enough to give the feds plenty.
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Apr 25, 2020 18:22
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The entire point of the Adriana thing is he couldn’t give up the life no matter what
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Apr 25, 2020 18:59
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^^^yep^^^BrotherJayne posted:Junior. And Richie. Matt Zerella posted:Paulie playing double agent was a pretty big liability for 2 seasons. I'm not saying Chris was a liability to flip. We're shown he's not and that he's loyal. Just that a loving heroin addiction probably outranks any other potential problems no matter how many loose cannons and rogue elements there are in the family. I mean, if he were withdrawing and/or went too far down that rabbit hole, he'd flip in a second just to fix. This, in addition to any number of fuckups he'd commit duing robberies, jobs, collections, being on call, etc. We're shown how Chris fucks up while high when they're dealing with Ralph and the mistakes he repeatedly makes when his judgement is couded. There's also the issue of him being "Tony's Little Favorite" and the resentment that causes in the crew. Chris got several "passes" and special treatment on a number of occasions in addition to working his way up really quick. Christ, they staged an intervention for him when half the crew wanted him clipped. Ralph, Junior and Ritchie were problems in the traditional sense of poo poo that goes on in the mafia - power struggles and greed. Vito's "problem" was sort of an oddly shaped egg. None of them were as potentially damaging as a made guy getting strung out on heroin IMO. A guy getting high and addicted, especially on H, can't be relied on to do poo poo if that monkey on thier back takes complete control and that seemed like a real possibility for a good while. Again, we're repeatedly shown it. I could make a fairly comprehensive list of the number of times that Chris has created problems for the family that would probably be longer (or more serious) than any of those other dudes.
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Apr 25, 2020 20:58
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CharlestheHammer posted:The entire point of the Adriana thing is he couldn’t give up the life no matter what Even in S6 he was ranting about how he had stories he could tell. He was probably never going to get to that point on his own, but if he actually got arrested and his options were going to prison for years vs going somewhere else with his family and trying to cash in on the story, option number 2 sounds pretty tempting. Yeah, we know he doesn't want to be a normal guy, but it beats being torn away from your family, especially once you realize your other Family doesn't actually give a poo poo about you anymore (and we know not being able to have kids with Adriana was something that bothered him, so the fact that he had a kid now was a meaningful change on its own, especially since he knew what it was like to grow up without a father). The reward he got for his loyalty was Tony and Paulie making GBS threads on him all the time, and he wasn't too stupid to notice. Dr Kool-AIDS fucked around with this message at 21:41 on Apr 25, 2020 |
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Apr 25, 2020 21:33
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I mean he talks about witness protection and he knows the FBI knows something but then the plot mostly just kind of forgets about that? I mean Adriana tells him they don’t know anything but he had to have that fear
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Apr 25, 2020 22:26
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One day I came into the thread, your posts about Chrissy were in the toilet. Disgusting.
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Apr 25, 2020 22:30
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Sinteres posted:Even in S6 he was ranting about how he had stories he could tell. "I could write my memoirs" Kidding aside, yeah, Chris' situation is complex to say the least and I hope they delve into it in The Many Saints of Newark, which seems like the plan. Tony is his surrogate father but someone else pointed out that the final nail in the coffin with their relationship was when Chris called his dad "just another junkie", which broke the link between between he and Tony idolizing their fathers. Ade was his true love but we also saw him beat her, call her damaged goods and ultimately choosing Tony and the life over her. Called his mother a oval office at the intervention. He's far from a good guy - he's an rear end in a top hat - but has a lot of moments where he seems to be trying to be more than he is. I swear to god, the more we talk about it and the more I read these awesome write ups, the central theme of this show seems to be that nobody really changes and only half of them even try. I never realized how similar Tony and Chris really are. Chris tried to touch on it when he told Tony he understood the human condition and expected empathy but it was met with deaf ears. They both had similar illnesses (depression and addiction) and worked their way up the mob ladder in large part due to their fathers.
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Apr 25, 2020 23:00
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| # ? Apr 29, 2024 13:41 |
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In a sort of roundabout way Adriana's death was the result of Christopher and Silvio's dealings. If she hadn't been around to witness the murder, the FBI wouldn't have had any leverage on her. When Christopher expresses feelings of guilt, he may not make the connection that it was the very mob "life" that he wanted intruding on his domestic life and this time killed the only person who was truly in his corner.BiggerBoat posted:I swear to god, the more we talk about it and the more I read these awesome write ups, the central theme of this show seems to be that nobody really changes and only half of them even try. I never realized how similar Tony and Chris really are. Chris tried to touch on it when he told Tony he understood the human condition and expected empathy but it was met with deaf ears. They both had similar illnesses (depression and addiction) and worked their way up the mob ladder in large part due to their fathers. Yeah. They all have their small epiphanies and think they've gained sight beyond their peers. In reality, they're still locked in the same cage: Tony with therapy, Chris with drugs, Paulie with his intellectual trivia and Sil trying to keep things running as-is even though the ship don't run so good these days. I think the poster a page back got it half right that "nobody changes" on the show. We see people (usually victims) change all the time. It is only the criminals who refuse to even *try*, instead making empty gestures and saying empty words. For all the poo poo they give Little Carmine, at least he means what he says. e. Oh, and nthing that these writeups are fantastic. When I came to the thread I was one of those people who just thought it was a mob show with a string of well-played but replaceable foils. This was my third watch through of the show and your thread, Jerusalem, shed new light on the whole thing. Thank you! phasmid fucked around with this message at 23:15 on Apr 25, 2020 |
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Apr 25, 2020 23:11
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