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I think what Bookworm is trying to portray for these few episodes is simply: life in olden days suck, and just because she managed to get promoted to a higher class doesn't mean life stops sucking for everyone around her including herself. What she's doing now is making the best out of a bad situation since no one else wants to do anything.
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Apr 28, 2020 03:50
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Joshlemagne posted:Well the spring 2020 season may be slowly dying of covid-19 but at least before it goes it gave us a genderswapped anime Kurt Cobain who, after getting addicted to a drug called "teen spirit" by a character named after Courtney Love's band, tries to kill herself by stealing a giant robot and smashing her head into a wall. The mud club is as far as i got. Besides the ones you mentioned i also spotted dinosaur jr, the pixies, kiss and the beatles this ep But yeah the show isn’t very good. Not all that much to it besides spotting music refs
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Apr 28, 2020 07:45
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Joshlemagne posted:On an unrelated note, Listeners gets a lot more watchable if you actually understand the five billion musical references they make per episode. Not good, mind you, just more watchable. I did like the apathetic cheerleaders and the dudes literally smashing pumpkins in the background, but I have no idea who the naked guys covered in dirt and obsessed with math were and feel like I'll probably feel dumb when someone tells me. that was almost certainly a reference to mudhoney, who gets relatively overlooked in the history of grunge. two of the founding members met in like a band about math in high school or something. Real Seattle Lore
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Apr 28, 2020 09:31
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Holy poo poo. Yeah, that's Mark Arm and Steve Turner.
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Apr 28, 2020 12:24
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Eeepies posted:I think what Bookworm is trying to portray for these few episodes is simply: life in olden days suck, and just because she managed to get promoted to a higher class doesn't mean life stops sucking for everyone around her including herself. What she's doing now is making the best out of a bad situation since no one else wants to do anything. Main isn't an isekai hero. She wasn't summoned to save the world. Circumstances beyond her control are what force her world to be larger than the confines of a library. Taking down a corrupt church and depraved nobility aren't her goals, so she's not taking that top-down view of the situation. She's dealing with things that are thrown in her face. Her retainers are forced on her. She only acknowledges them as her responsibility when she realizes it's that or letting them starve. Gil's competence is denied so completely that he constantly calls Main stupid and incompetent in frustration. Telling him he has to work for a meal is Main's way of rejecting his station as a helpless slave. If he does his job he gets his own food, instead of table scraps at her whim. In a place that treats him like an animal, it's probably the first taste of self-determination he's ever had. He has no reason to trust her, but just the chance that she'll follow through is enough to make him work hard because he's tired of living off of others' pity. He's not moved because "Master's so kind."; he sees that she recognizes him as a person who can make his own way in the world if given the chance. Even when Main brings "alms" to the starving orphans, it's whole food and not scraps. That's not an idle choice. Benno probably picked up the tab for the ingredients because it doubled as product research, reinforcing that Main is not just throwing her money around to feel good about herself. She's not rich after paying off the church to save her own life. Main comes from a segment of society where children work, but they're also taught a skill, paid a wage, and there's some official oversight. Sweatshops are probably less tolerated in Main's world than they are in ours. It's Lutz bringing up foraging for food in the forest that sparks the idea of the orphans working in the paper studio, not "Gee whiz, look at all this powerless labor laying around." It's an excuse to get them out of the compound where they can forage while collecting materials. Making paper is going to be a valuable skill to have, and only Main and Lutz have it right now. If it becomes a recognized profession, and they can become apprentices, they could grow to support themselves. Main is doing all of this at serious personal risk, considering her own freedom is held together by handshakes, delicate legal cantilevering, and her own exploitation. The social power people perceive her to have is just because she wears a differently colored robe. There's very little substance behind it. Even the head priest has to drag her into a secure room, so he can break character and beg her to be more circumspect before she gets them both killed. I'm okay with the way Bookworm is using slavery. It's not to make Main look like "The Good Master". There are no hopelessly smitten, half-naked, slave girls following Goshoujin-sama around. The power gap in society is so vast that even the richest commoner we've seen probably moved heaven and earth and still couldn't spare his granddaughter from selling her body to save her life. Slavery is inevitable when that kind of inequality exists. It's clear that the working and middle classes are against it, and it illustrates the degeneracy of the church and nobility. That makes narrative sense when Main is on a path toward the invention that made the Protestant Reformation, and French and American Revolutions possible. Side Note: In case someone wants to bring it up, I don't have a strong opinion on Main vs. Maine. I use Main because it's how it's written in the world's alphabet in the anime and it's how the VAs pronounce it. If the LNs say Maine is the correct spelling, that's cool, and neither one keeps me from enjoying the discussion. I've just seen and heard Main for 18 episodes now. That's my experience with the property, and I'm going with it.
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Apr 28, 2020 12:27
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I'm on the side of Main is doing her best to her limit as well, so i think you quoted the wrong person?
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Apr 28, 2020 12:33
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I think one thing to note here is that Main's baseline is that her survival is still essentially at the whim of the church. If at any point she becomes too inconvenient to them, they'll just throw her out and no amount of cake recipes will save her. While the church is in crisis she's very useful to them, but she is under no illusions that this is a temporary arrangement. Hence it's not enough to dump money into the orphanage, giving the orphans something lasting like a trade is important.
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Apr 28, 2020 12:33
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Eeepies posted:I'm on the side of Main is doing her best to her limit as well, so i think you quoted the wrong person? I didn't quote you to confront you, just kinda agree and add a bunch of supporting commentary. Fangz posted:I think one thing to note here is that Main's baseline is that her survival is still essentially at the whim of the church. If at any point she becomes too inconvenient to them, they'll just throw her out and no amount of cake recipes will save her. While the church is in crisis she's very useful to them, but she is under no illusions that this is a temporary arrangement. Hence it's not enough to dump money into the orphanage, giving the orphans something lasting like a trade is important. As it stands, she's probably barely less trouble than throwing her in a box to use as a mana battery and dealing with the legal consquences. Daddy, Otto, Benno, and Mark would probably storm the place, though. 
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Apr 28, 2020 12:48
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Eeepies posted:I think what Bookworm is trying to portray for these few episodes is simply: life in olden days suck, and just because she managed to get promoted to a higher class doesn't mean life stops sucking for everyone around her including herself. What she's doing now is making the best out of a bad situation since no one else wants to do anything. See the problem with Isekai is even in a bullshit power fantasy nonsense land where some teenager can master and implement thousands of years of technological development in a few months, it's simply too hard to not participate and uphold institutionalised slavery. THAT would just be too out there. Now, watch as a middling highschool student develops porcelain because they had an art class three years ago where they made clay pots. Isekai is pointless wish fulfillment fantasy crap with no complications and no personal growth. "What if I woke up and I was just the best and amazing without changing, also slavery is maybe not that bad especially if I get subservient women out of it". Just, yikes. I've never seen something more actively targeted at people who are just, well, losers. They don't want things to actually be better for everyone, just themselves. Anyway I shut up for like ten pages of isekai chat so you deserved it. Cuff me mods I'll come quietly.
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Apr 28, 2020 14:23
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Wark Say posted:Holy poo poo. Yeah, that's Mark Arm and Steve Turner. cool, i remember really enjoying sonic youth's cover of touch me im sick, but beyond that i never put alot of thought into the original band itself i guess the show is an opportunity for the director to geek the gently caress out about bands he really likes
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Apr 28, 2020 14:43
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Splode posted:See the problem with Isekai is even in a bullshit power fantasy nonsense land where some teenager can master and implement thousands of years of technological development in a few months, it's simply too hard to not participate and uphold institutionalised slavery. THAT would just be too out there. Now, watch as a middling highschool student develops porcelain because they had an art class three years ago where they made clay pots. Well it's going to be difficult to have a discussion when they're talking about the specifics of a title, in-depth, and you're describing a generic one that exists only in your head.
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Apr 28, 2020 14:45
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The Bookworm stuff would give me less pause if we weren't talking about 6 year olds Like Main acknowledging the system is hosed up is one thing but I would really like her to flinch before press ganging a bunch of children who have no other options into her personal workforce. At least one throwaway thing Patware fucked around with this message at 15:00 on Apr 28, 2020 |
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Apr 28, 2020 14:57
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If you dropped SAC 2045 because the initial episodes let you down, I'd recommend you give the rest of the show a chance. It doesn't live up to the originals, but it ends up much more like them then the beginning would lead you to believe.
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Apr 28, 2020 15:01
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Patware posted:The Bookworm stuff would give me less pause if we weren't talking about 6 year olds Doesn't she literally not have the resources to help them otherwise? It's this or starve?
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Apr 28, 2020 15:34
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I think one disconnect happening is some folks are focused at the character's actions within the context of what the story has set up, where other folks are looking at the situation the story has set up to begin with -- why do the orphans have to be that young for instance? There may be a reason, this could be a discussion re: was it historically appropriate? if so was it absolutely necessary or could they have been aged up to be idk 12-13 without really changing the story that much but not be so off-putting to a reader/viewer? I'm not asking to debate that particular point because I have not read or watched this thing, but am just wanting to point out that criticism of a character's actions may be making a point about authorial choices about the story overall rather than trying to say "character bad for doing x"
Everything Burrito fucked around with this message at 16:10 on Apr 28, 2020 |
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Apr 28, 2020 15:55
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The decision was made right at the end of the episode so it's not like we're seeing six year olds do backbreaking labour yet, the immediate priority is Main rescuing these kids and feeding and clothing them. It wouldn't really have worked with older kids because Main is about 6 also, and we've already established kids at that age work and beyond that age they go into apprenticeships. Fangz fucked around with this message at 16:09 on Apr 28, 2020 |
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Apr 28, 2020 16:01
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Me thinking about the child slaves I own and the circumstances that led to this: Well, I guess it can't be helped!
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Apr 28, 2020 16:03
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Splode posted:See the problem with Isekai is even in a bullshit power fantasy nonsense land where some teenager can master and implement thousands of years of technological development in a few months, it's simply too hard to not participate and uphold institutionalised slavery. THAT would just be too out there. Now, watch as a middling highschool student develops porcelain because they had an art class three years ago where they made clay pots. why are you acting like you won an argument when the thing you were bouncing off of earlier was just a romcom about a goofy otome villainess with a harem of men and women that doesn't do any of the things people are complaining about in bookworm and effectively could be the same story without the isekai aspect if you were willing to change a bit of how it's written rather than the isekai aspect being integral to the power fantasy why do you feel this strong urge to gloat about a popular genre having bad writing in it when you're going to naturally get bad examples of writing in any popular genre because that's what happens when a genre, is popular, and has many people making stories based in it. like there are unique oddities to writing isekai but i feel like if you took these exact same stories without the isekai element they'd. probably have the same issues. The Colonel fucked around with this message at 16:06 on Apr 28, 2020 |
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Apr 28, 2020 16:04
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So, SAC_2045 episode 6; We have a single posthuman contained in a facility with airgapped systems, a nurse with no cyberbrain, and dozens of networked security androids ready and waiting to repeat the Nevada nuclear missile base incident if Gary somehow DOES get onto the network? 
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Apr 28, 2020 16:12
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I feel like when a critical statement is made like "this character participates in institutionalize slavery and this bothers me" the defense of "well the character has no choice because they have no power in the story to make changes" kind of misses the point because the reason they have no power is that's what the author wrote -- if the author intended for them to object more strongly to this system or do something to change it they could have been given the power to do so, and weren't. The reasons why they were written to have to work within a distasteful situation might make sense; historically appropriate maybe? I thought the post pointing out that her actions were parallel to what led to real-world revolutions and reforms was interesting -- without context of reading it I have no idea if that's what's going on but that feels like a pretty valid reason for portraying this sort of system. I think there still is room to say ok but were other choices made to make this feel more gratuitous or whatever, and did it have to be that way? If it's a thing that bothers people regardless, pointing out a character had no choice isn't going to make it bother them less because it's fundamental to the scenario and the problem is then not with the character but with the whole setup that led to the character taking those actions, i.e. participating in slavery in whatever form. e: this basically lol Srice posted:Me thinking about the child slaves I own and the circumstances that led to this: Well, I guess it can't be helped! e2: and thinking about colonel's post, if you removed the isekai element and the MC was...idk just some mid-level church official with some modest level of power & influence puttering around doing more or less the same actions of the Bookworm MC you'd probably still end up in the same place wrt participation in a system of slavery and whether or not people take issue with that, so "isekai bad" hot takes don't really address this specific problem even if bad isekai is notorious for using slavery in a gross way. On the other hand that may leave people feeling less charitable toward an isekai story that slavery shows up in regardless of how it's being used  this was actually meant to be an edit of my other post but several other posts happened so I just made a new one 
Everything Burrito fucked around with this message at 16:22 on Apr 28, 2020 |
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Apr 28, 2020 16:13
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Everything Burrito posted:I feel like when a critical statement is made like "this character participates in institutionalize slavery and this bothers me" the defense of "well the character has no choice because they have no power in the story to make changes" kind of misses the point because the reason they have no power is that's what the author wrote -- if the author intended for them to object more strongly to this system or do something to change it they could have been given the power to do so, and weren't. The reasons why they were written to have to work within a distasteful situation might make sense; historically appropriate maybe? I thought the post pointing out that her actions were parallel to what led to real-world revolutions and reforms was interesting -- without context of reading it I have no idea if that's what's going on but that feels like a pretty valid reason for portraying this sort of system. I think there still is room to say ok but were other choices made to make this feel more gratuitous or whatever, and did it have to be that way? It's because Bookworm isn't a power fantasy. The main character has knowledge that is useful, but the structure of the story is such that she basically can achieve nothing on her own. At every step she has to rely on people, be it family, child friends, a greedy merchant, a sympathetic priest... The core of the story is basically about her enabling these people to accomplish these things, and struggling with that. A story where Main resolves the issue by uh, telling people slavery is bad, would be insultingly simplistic.
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Apr 28, 2020 16:25
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Neddy Seagoon posted:So, SAC_2045 episode 6; We have a single posthuman contained in a facility with airgapped systems, a nurse with no cyberbrain, and dozens of networked security androids ready and waiting to repeat the Nevada nuclear missile base incident if Gary somehow DOES get onto the network? yeah 2045 in general doesn't seem as fussed with details of its scenarios.
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Apr 28, 2020 16:34
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I've not seen Bookworm but much of the defense of it is on this subject is coming off as very Thermian Argument-esque; because it is consistent with the in universe explanations for its setting, however forced or handwave-y it appears, it cannot be therefore be criticized.
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Apr 28, 2020 16:37
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Nate RFB posted:I've not seen Bookworm but much of the defense of it is on this subject is coming off as very Thermian Argument-esque; because it is consistent with the in universe explanations for its setting, however forced or handwave-y it appears, it cannot be therefore be criticized. It's more that the specific details of the depiction is important and people are trying to brush over it with this "participates in and upholds slavery" generalization. Main's situation within the story is fairly close to Oscar Schindler, essentially.
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Apr 28, 2020 16:43
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Fangz, there's a disconnect going on here. It's entirely possible for the circumstances in the show to make the events plausible, while also being completely offputting for viewers. A person's disgust with the portrayal doesn't have to be based in assuming ulterior politics of the writer or a message it's trying to convey. The portrayal can be, in of itself, offputting for a lot of people, for very obvious reasons.
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Apr 28, 2020 16:50
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Julias posted:Fangz, there's a disconnect going on here. It's entirely possible for the circumstances in the show to make the events plausible, while also being completely offputting for viewers. A person's disgust with the portrayal doesn't have to be based in assuming ulterior politics of the writer or a message it's trying to convey. The portrayal can be, in of itself, offputting for a lot of people, for very obvious reasons. I certainly don't mean to imply that it's not allowed to feel uncomfortable or to think Bookworm is a bad show or a bad story or whatever. I'm more directly addressing the Thermian argument complaint, how I don't think this is the Thermian argument here. We're not saying "Bookworm's author has concocted a situation where slavery is okay, therefore it's okay and believable that the main character does slavery", we're really saying that the specifics of the situation is such that I don't think the character is really doing a slavery, more using the rules of the system to subvert it out of a genuine desire to save these kids. The (rebuttal to the) Thermian Argument is kinda very specifically about the author having an ulterior motive or message and manipulating the world to make that the only possible conclusion. The complaint is "well, why can't you tell a different story, what's the value in this one?" I'm more saying "I don't think that *is* the story."
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Apr 28, 2020 16:59
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*sighs and removes bookworm from the wholesome isekai thread*
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Apr 28, 2020 17:02
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Splode posted:Isekai is pointless wish fulfillment fantasy crap with no complications and no personal growth. "What if I woke up and I was just the best and amazing without changing, also slavery is maybe not that bad especially if I get subservient women out of it". Just, yikes. I've never seen something more actively targeted at people who are just, well, losers. They don't want things to actually be better for everyone, just themselves. I haven't seen more than a few episodes of Bookworm so I can't really comment, but it sounds like you're trying to make a one-size-fits-all take when it's written by and one of the more popular LNs with women.
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Apr 28, 2020 17:09
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Splode posted:See the problem with Isekai is even in a bullshit power fantasy nonsense land where some teenager can master and implement thousands of years of technological development in a few months, it's simply too hard to not participate and uphold institutionalised slavery. THAT would just be too out there. Now, watch as a middling highschool student develops porcelain because they had an art class three years ago where they made clay pots. Isekai isn't a genre, its an appendix to the narrative, a single piece of the story structure that can be written both poorly and well. Dealing with absolutes absolutely bores me. You have to engage with criticism of a work on a work by work basis. Sweeping generalizations have very little use to me.
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Apr 28, 2020 17:16
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i only engage with fiction as a whole, and anything goes as its fiction. down with american cultural norms
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Apr 28, 2020 17:19
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I haven’t watched Bookworm and it’s probably pronounced differently but I can’t get over the main character being called Main.
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Apr 28, 2020 17:23
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iirc a more natural-reading translation of her name is Myne, and people were a bit put off when the offical TLs went with that.
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Apr 28, 2020 17:25
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It's pronounced Myne, but spelled Main for presumably the same reasons the river in Germany pronounced Myne is spelled Main.
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Apr 28, 2020 17:28
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Remember the Myne
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Apr 28, 2020 17:29
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Terrible Opinions posted:It's pronounced Myne, but spelled Main for presumably the same reasons the river in Germany pronounced Myne is spelled Main. theyre both home to nazis? We are through the looking glass here people
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Apr 28, 2020 17:32
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Slavery is problematic in isekai because certain other works have the main characters engage in it without giving a second thought to dismantling the system, or just pay lip service to it without affecting any real change. I argue that Bookworm is nothing like that. It is troubling that Maine is very acquiesent towards adopting the nobles' common sense (see: my own troubled musings on something similar in arc 3), but it's never celebrated as being a good thing. First of all, she is not keeping child slaves, jesus christ. Seeing the main character keep child slaves would certainly be awful and a good reason to drop it, but they aren't even close to that. None of them are in a situation that some character wasn't in last season. This is the main character putting them in the same situation where she was a year ago, except with more support than even she did. It's not a situation like Harry Potter where people ask "well why is it ok to have house elves?" and JK contrived that it's because "oh, they like being slaves and won't even let themselves be freed if they can help it". If anything, she's put them on equal footing with all the other kids their age in the city, all of whom are also working. As for why kids have to be working at all in this scenario? I mean, yes, historically, this tracks with what age children started helping their parents back in the medieval period, but I'm not a stickler for accuracy in a fantasy work. I do think it's essential narratively in the case of Bookworm that they be children because the story is all about someone with as little agency as possible earning that agency. And yes, she may be a 20-something in mind, but it's important to the story that she looks like and is treated as a child. And as to why she doesn't try to reform society... I mean, it's not a coincidence that the story is about the main character building up a base of financial and political strength so that she can introduce a device famously instrumental in reforming society.
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Apr 28, 2020 18:04
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This got real dumb real fast. And it's "Main" because it's pronounced mah-in.
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Apr 28, 2020 18:39
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Dzhay posted:And it's "Main" because it's pronounced mah-in. Wait, so how do you propose we should be spelling "George"?
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Apr 28, 2020 18:42
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Gee, orgy DUH
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Apr 28, 2020 18:55
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Julias posted:Gee, orgy 
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Apr 28, 2020 18:58
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