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Amethyst posted:The publisher isn't interested. This series is dead. Well considering what the series is called...
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Mar 19, 2020 08:50
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The ending was unbelievably poo poo. Then Bakker basically went on the internet and made the official authorial stance that he had been waiting to do that the whole time because the whole series was his deconstruction of Lord of the Rings or whatever. It was one of my most frustrating moments of all time as a fan of something.
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Apr 27, 2020 01:57
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It's not a very good deconstruction of Lord of the Rings. I'll elaborate a bit to avoid threadshitting. Baker had a few big ideas going for him a la Kilgore Trout, one of which was the horror of determinism combined with the fear that you could be just as easily manipulated by someone with no morals who understood the levers. It's a compelling idea that made a lot of people more willing to tolerate black demon seed and the copious amount of rape aliens. The problem is that Bakker then descended into pretentious metaphysics with the "what if the gods are evil, mannnnnnn" and the unnecessarily immature take on the Calvinist elect. It was clear the editors had gone out the window as we got grab like vagina dragon and the Gay Rape Crusade which...just didn't add anything and felt like they were written one handed. This is before we get into the actual construction of the novels.
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Apr 27, 2020 21:54
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It is pretty obvious that there was supposed to be another trilogy because Bakker clearly frames the story as a repeat of the previous apocalypse, in which the second act ended with the no-god freed and the forces of humanity in disarray. However, his publisher noped out of the series and Bakker tried to save face by starting to claim this was always supposed to be the ending. I didn’t like it as much as I took pleasure in people being riled up about it, which doesn’t cast a good light upon my character, but it is what it is. I still recommend this series in other threads out of spite.
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Apr 27, 2020 22:04
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Apr 27, 2020 23:10
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Take the plunge! Okay! posted:It is pretty obvious that there was supposed to be another trilogy because Bakker clearly frames the story as a repeat of the previous apocalypse, in which the second act ended with the no-god freed and the forces of humanity in disarray. However, his publisher noped out of the series and Bakker tried to save face by starting to claim this was always supposed to be the ending. I didn’t like it as much as I took pleasure in people being riled up about it, which doesn’t cast a good light upon my character, but it is what it is. I still recommend this series in other threads out of spite. There isn’t “supposed” to be another trilogy. Why do people keep taking fantasy authors at their word? Writing an ending is hard work and lots of bad writers are incapable of doing it. They just write till they stop and claim they have more planned. In this case he isn’t even doing that. He’s saying “yep this is the ending. Sorry about that. I could write more if you think it’s bad. Sorry.” Also it’s pretty clear that Bakker has serious sadistic tendencies. He wanted to “teach the reader a lesson” in a really negative way. The more I think about it the less I like these books, and Bakker as a person. Amethyst fucked around with this message at 23:46 on Apr 27, 2020 |
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Apr 27, 2020 23:40
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He did speak of a third duology or trilogy, even before the great ordeal came out. Said the name would be a spoiler. That doesn't mean he'll ever write or publish it but it's not like it came from nowhere, and it definitely was mentioned before the last book came out.
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Apr 28, 2020 00:40
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That's so vague as to mean anything and nothing. Could be called "How to Cook Sranc" and it would still fulfill the conditions. Writers always talk about something they _might_ write.
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Apr 28, 2020 00:51
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Amethyst posted:In this case he isn’t even doing that. He’s saying “yep this is the ending. Sorry about that. I could write more if you think it’s bad. Sorry.” Everything I read on his forums ran to the contrary. Where have you ever seen him say that or anything that's a functional equivalent?
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Apr 28, 2020 01:54
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Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:He did speak of a third duology or trilogy, even before the great ordeal came out. Said the name would be a spoiler. That doesn't mean he'll ever write or publish it but it's not like it came from nowhere, and it definitely was mentioned before the last book came out. He also said there would be a second trilogy before it became a quadrilogy. Again: why would anyone take fantasy authors at their word? Of course they would say making their story into an endless serial is what is good and proper. Endings are hard and unprofitable.
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Apr 28, 2020 03:05
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Memnaelar posted:Everything I read on his forums ran to the contrary. Where have you ever seen him say that or anything that's a functional equivalent? I read an interview where he revealed that he wrote the story as a dnd campaign as a teen, and it ended like it did in the books. He talked about how he could write more but he has no plan for what would happen.
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Apr 28, 2020 03:10
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Amethyst posted:I read an interview where he revealed that he wrote the story as a dnd campaign as a teen, and it ended like it did in the books. He talked about how he could write more but he has no plan for what would happen. ...Yeah, that's pretty different from what you said earlier. But cool. He's never said that was the ending or that he wasn't planning on writing more. In the GRRM era, nobody's naive enough to believe that guarantees more is on the way, but In this case he isn’t even doing that. He’s saying “yep this is the ending. Sorry about that. I could write more if you think it’s bad. Sorry.” isn't in any way supported by anything he's actually said or done.
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Apr 28, 2020 03:17
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Memnaelar posted:...Yeah, that's pretty different from what you said earlier. But cool. I’m not here to be interrogated dude. Go read the interview
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Apr 28, 2020 03:25
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And if it’s “naive” to expect the novels we read to end, that’s a terrible situation for readers and we shouldn’t buy into it.
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Apr 28, 2020 03:36
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Amethyst posted:I’m not here to be interrogated dude. Go read the interview I have. He didn't express the sentiment you said he did. But given the way you misunderstood my meaning of the term 'naive' (and your misuse of interrogated), we can leave it at that.
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Apr 28, 2020 03:54
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The real question is: would anyone read anymore books set in this universe if he does end up writing more?
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Apr 28, 2020 15:17
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Sure, I'd read it at some point. Though hopefully he gets an editor who hates his guts. The last two entries really needed a work over. And be only one.
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Apr 28, 2020 16:09
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Mukulu posted:The real question is: would anyone read anymore books set in this universe if he does end up writing more? Call it sunk costs fallacy (or phallusy since Bakker) but I would want to see how he tries to wrap it.
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Apr 28, 2020 17:21
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I’d read it. My understanding—-erroneous or not— was that the initial plan was a trilogy where the final entry was the actual second apocalypse. So I was always hoping to read about the second apocalypse and not just the lead up.
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Apr 28, 2020 17:25
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I would read it as well. In the larger scope of fantasy, Bakker stands out and there are so many many other authors that are simply forgettable.
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Apr 28, 2020 17:46
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I regret reading these books
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Apr 28, 2020 18:02
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Fuzzy Mammal posted:I regret reading these books Me too man. They are 100% about a kid from high school where if only the pretty girl would listen to his logic then she'd dump the jock and bang him, plus also gently caress you dad. That and "the sweet honey of thousands of unwashed anuses" which is the most disturbing line from anything I've ever read.
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Apr 28, 2020 22:19
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BigHead posted:Me too man. They are 100% about a kid from high school where if only the pretty girl would listen to his logic then she'd dump the jock and bang him, plus also gently caress you dad. There's a lot to criticise about Bakker, but I really don't buy this reading. The master of logic and reason is a terrifying abomination who ruthlessly destroys anyone who sees through his web of manipulation. Kellhus is a monster. Strom Cuzewon fucked around with this message at 22:33 on Apr 28, 2020 |
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Apr 28, 2020 22:29
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I would readBigHead posted:Me too man. They are 100% about a kid from high school where if only the pretty girl would listen to his logic then she'd dump the jock and bang him, plus also gently caress you dad. That and "the sweet honey of thousands of unwashed anuses" which is the most disturbing line from anything I've ever read. Except the super handsome, musclebound jock is also infinitely better than him at logic and thinking.
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Apr 29, 2020 00:55
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Strom Cuzewon posted:There's a lot to criticise about Bakker, but I really don't buy this reading. The master of logic and reason is a terrifying abomination who ruthlessly destroys anyone who sees through his web of manipulation. Kellhus is a monster. I like how upset people get by Bakker. I wonder if it is because their expectations completely got shattered or whether they expected something else than another fantasy series. Especially since you don’t get disappointed of the end unless you have actually read the entire six books. Most people who get tired of a series or a book would have dropped it way before the end. Or maybe it is because so many readers are completionists that have to finish what they started?
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Apr 29, 2020 06:23
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Just because Kellhus is an anti hero doesn’t mean he isn’t a stupid indulgent fantasy based on a warped view of humanity as a bunch of sheeple.
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Apr 29, 2020 09:54
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Amethyst posted:Just because Kellhus is an anti hero doesn’t mean he isn’t a stupid indulgent fantasy based on a warped view of humanity as a bunch of sheeple.
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Apr 29, 2020 13:35
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Amethyst posted:Just because Kellhus is an anti hero doesn’t mean he isn’t a stupid indulgent fantasy based on a warped view of humanity as a bunch of sheeple. Lunchmeat Larry posted:Yes, his general prowess and success (even if he ultimately fails for stupid contrived reasons) ultimately come down to Bakker's philosophy 101 nihilistic worldview that brains are scary How is this different from any other fantasy that plays at the pseduophilosophical angle? LotR, Narnia = Christianity myth Sword of Truth = Libertarian just as examples from the top of my head.
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Apr 29, 2020 13:42
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But...brains are scary
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Apr 29, 2020 14:29
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Mukulu posted:The real question is: would anyone read anymore books set in this universe if he does end up writing more? eh, maybe lovely fantasy works as audiobooks for commutes
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Apr 29, 2020 15:10
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BigHead posted:Me too man. They are 100% about a kid from high school where if only the pretty girl would listen to his logic then she'd dump the jock and bang him, plus also gently caress you dad. That and "the sweet honey of thousands of unwashed anuses" which is the most disturbing line from anything I've ever read. what was the context for this?
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Apr 29, 2020 15:13
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ChubbyChecker posted:what was the context for this? It's in The Thousand fold Thought . Talking to the filthy, unkempt army after it crossed the desert. Bakker thought it important to describe the smell as the sweet honey of their unwashed anuses. The exact line is "the ink of armpits, the honey of unwashed anuses, all shot through with strands of balsam, orange, and jasmine."
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Apr 29, 2020 18:12
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BigHead posted:It's in The Thousand fold Thought . Talking to the filthy, unkempt army after it crossed the desert. Bakker thought it important to describe the smell as the sweet honey of their unwashed anuses. poetry
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Apr 29, 2020 18:46
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Cardiac posted:How is this different from any other fantasy that plays at the pseduophilosophical angle? Lotr does not focus on sauron seducing people for chapters on end. I haven’t read sword of truth but it’s famously terrible.
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Apr 29, 2020 21:59
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Amethyst posted:Lotr does not focus on sauron seducing people for chapters on end. I haven’t read sword of truth but it’s famously terrible. I am mostly curious why people are so upset about Bakker and the books since there are plenty of mediocre fantasy written by authors with questionable opinions out there that people don’t get upset about. You don’t see the same amount of vitriol towards other authors, probably because they are completely generic and forgettable.
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Apr 30, 2020 05:16
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BigHead posted:It's in The Thousand fold Thought . Talking to the filthy, unkempt army after it crossed the desert. Bakker thought it important to describe the smell as the sweet honey of their unwashed anuses. lmao what absolute poo poo is he Rothfuss but edgy? holy poo poo that's stupid as gently caress Cardiac posted:I am mostly curious why people are so upset about Bakker and the books since there are plenty of mediocre fantasy written by authors with questionable opinions out there that people don’t get upset about. seems pretty obvious to me dude, readers expected better than what they got and then Bakker was mealy mouthed when questioned.
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Apr 30, 2020 09:32
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Cardiac posted:I am mostly curious why people are so upset about Bakker and the books since there are plenty of mediocre fantasy written by authors with questionable opinions out there that people don’t get upset about. You do see vitriol toward other authors. It’s normal. People have been hating Terry Goodkind at a steady rate for decades. Being let down by a multi thousand page series feels bad. No one hates Tolkien or Lewis though, their works are classics. Not sure why you raised them.
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Apr 30, 2020 13:40
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Cardiac posted:I am mostly curious why people are so upset about Bakker and the books since there are plenty of mediocre fantasy written by authors with questionable opinions out there that people don’t get upset about.
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Apr 30, 2020 14:18
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Amethyst posted:You do see vitriol toward other authors. It’s normal. People have been hating Terry Goodkind at a steady rate for decades. Being let down by a multi thousand page series feels bad. some people hate tolkien for his racism and classism, and some hate lewis for his racism, misogynism and jesus lions
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Apr 30, 2020 14:23
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I made this point a page or two ago and someone already voiced their disagreement then, but I think people feel more let down by Bakker than some other fantasy authors because the first trilogy was really good. Yes, with all the important caveats that jump immediately to mind, but nonetheless, it was some solid fantasy. I'm pretty sure Bakker would be saying that the disappointment was his authorial intent as his purpose was to challenge readers' expectations about what they get as an ending, but I have far less of an issue with the ending itself (the apocalypse happens again) than with the lovely execution of the last two books. As has been repeated ad nauseam, if the last two novels had been trimmed down into a single tome with approximately one third of the cannibalistic death march and some effort to actually give decent answers to at least some of the questions raised throughout the series, just as was done with TTT, it would have been a lot easier to stomach, but that didn't happen and we were left with poo poo as a result.
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Apr 30, 2020 14:41
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