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TrixRabbi posted:I don't know how many pennies that series was worth after the second one. I don't mean to say Wishmaster sequels would've been big money but work is work. What has Divoff even done in the last 20 years? Everything on his wiki page post-Wishmaster is direct to video crap that I can't imagine was paying him as much as a starring role in a Wishmaster sequel would. The first two films both had budgets in the millions of dollars so I assume Divoff could at least get a six-figure salary, no?
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May 1, 2020 16:38
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He was on  
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May 1, 2020 16:39
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He saw the Christian Romance Special writing on the wall and walked
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May 1, 2020 16:45
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Look i just really hate Friday the 13th ok
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May 1, 2020 16:48
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Basebf555 posted:I don't mean to say Wishmaster sequels would've been big money but work is work. What has Divoff even done in the last 20 years? Everything on his wiki page post-Wishmaster is direct to video crap that I can't imagine was paying him as much as a starring role in a Wishmaster sequel would. I have to imagine that the full Djinn costume and makeup were an absolute bitch to work in, let alone get into or out of. The cost and effort were why they kept manufacturing reasons in the first two for him to look human, after all. So, if he wasn't making a seven-figure paycheck each time, I could imagine him just looking at the hassle of that whole process again when they wanted to make a third movie and deciding it wasn't worth it.
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May 1, 2020 16:53
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Class3KillStorm posted:I have to imagine that the full Djinn costume and makeup were an absolute bitch to work in, let alone get into or out of. The cost and effort were why they kept manufacturing reasons in the first two for him to look human, after all. So, if he wasn't making a seven-figure paycheck each time, I could imagine him just looking at the hassle of that whole process again when they wanted to make a third movie and deciding it wasn't worth it. That's another thing about those later sequels. The quality of the Djinn costume falls off a cliff.
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May 1, 2020 16:55
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Shrecknet posted:Look i just really hate Friday the 13th ok I think Universal Monsters is the one to beat it.
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May 1, 2020 16:56
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Wishmaster was directed by a seasoned SFX guy and written by the people who wrote Hellbound: Hellraiser II. Wishmaster 2 was written and directed by the director of Freddy's Revenge and The Hidden. Wishmaster 3 and 4 are practically the only movies on the director's resume. 3 was written by a writer of Hallmark originals. 4 was written by a writer of Lifetime originals. Divoff probably saw the writing on the wall.
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May 1, 2020 17:16
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TrixRabbi posted:I think Universal Monsters is the one to beat it. Universal Monsters aren't even gonna beat my boy Chucky, what are you on about? 
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May 1, 2020 17:16
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TrixRabbi posted:I think Universal Monsters is the one to beat it. It is the chosen one. Also I could write a whole impassioned thing about Universal Monster movies and what they personally mean to me but frankly? If that's your only reason you're going for Chucky, I don't want to argue you out of it. You love it, you vote for it, that's just how you do. You do you. There's a very real disconnect with some people when they look back on the Universal lot because they seem so bare bones. But that's largely because they ARE the bones. They are the foundation on which modern horror was built. In all of its artsy, critic hated, sequel driven, body count heavy, cleavage sporting, overly censored, stamped down by conservative goons, goofy ghost bullshit having, camp and queer glory, Modern Horror has come forged from their fires. You can vote with your heart on Chucky, but give the originals their due. They made this genre what it is now, and set the tone for what horror should be and strive for ever since. Which is gay as gently caress. Also if Universal does not win then I will write an essay about every single Friday the 13th film and how each of them are great and perfect forever until it wins every tournament from here unto the Heat Death Of The Universe
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May 1, 2020 17:21
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Yea I think what's happening is that Universal Monsters are now coming up against opponents that our age group(lets say 20s to late 30s?) really have a lot of affection for. Nostalgia and which characters you were first exposed to as a kid really make a big difference. And that's fine, I think that's a big part of what this tournament is all about. So I really can understand why someone would vote for Child's Play. It's an extremely solid series and if it made a big impact on you and the Universal Monsters really didn't, then sure I think it makes sense to vote Chucky. When the Universal Monsters were up against the likes of Cube it was a different discussion.
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May 1, 2020 17:29
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I've been catching up with the Chucky and Universal franchises, and the Universal films have wavering quality, but there's quality there. Whereas Chucky kind of hits that C+/B- groove, and just coasts on it for the entire franchise. It never really becomes truly great at any point, but never really stops being entertaining either. I still have a few films to catch up on, but right now I'm giving my vote to Universal
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May 1, 2020 17:34
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Basebf555 posted:So I really can understand why someone would vote for Child's Play. It's an extremely solid series and if it made a big impact on you and the Universal Monsters really didn't, then sure I think it makes sense to vote Chucky. When the Universal Monsters were up against the likes of Cube it was a different discussion. With apologies to Shrecknet... 
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May 1, 2020 17:43
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Class3KillStorm posted:I have to imagine that the full Djinn costume and makeup were an absolute bitch to work in, let alone get into or out of. The cost and effort were why they kept manufacturing reasons in the first two for him to look human, after all. So, if he wasn't making a seven-figure paycheck each time, I could imagine him just looking at the hassle of that whole process again when they wanted to make a third movie and deciding it wasn't worth it. RE: Wishmaster 3; I imagine they couldn't throw enough money at Sean Connery's son to get him into the costume and so they just had 2 different actors, one as human form Djinn and one as slimy Djinn. Pretty sure it was the same with 4.
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May 1, 2020 18:21
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Debbie Does Dagon posted:Archive.org has a bunch of the early Universal monster movies, if that's helpful to anyone catching up on them Thank you! I checked them for Frankenstein but apparently putting in Whale's name instead of Universal made sure I didn't find it. If this and Bride sway my vote, they will have you to thank. I am sad you're not digging your time with Chucky more, though. I remember when Cult came out buzz in the thread was like "yo there are two more Chucky movies than you've even heard of and they're both pretty good" and I was puzzled because, like, the killer doll series I haven't thought about since part III was kind of boring? Really? Then I watched Curse and Cult and they were both so good and so different from what I expected that it made me reconsider and revisit the whole thing, and I just love it all as a package now. That it's managed to stay so coherent and consistent while going in so many different directions is a really unique achievement and the way Cult ends is just such a great, optimistic setup for potential future stories that I find it impossible not to be excited about the franchise. I haven't seen the 2019 yet just because a remake at that point in franchise continuity felt like such a sad and needless thing when it was so much healthier than any of the other classics, but people claim it's pretty good too and really I can forgive it since, like, it's a direction all the major franchises have gone so maybe it was sensible for Chucky to check it out once. I hope Fiona Dourif gets to go to a space station in the next movie or two, though.
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May 1, 2020 20:22
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To me I think Chucky is kind of what a bunch of people say Friday the 13th is to them. None of the Chucky movies are great but none of them are really bad either. The whole franchise is consistently entertaining even as the style and approach changes. Except Friday the 13th was just never actually entertaining to me and I think the base level of "consistent entertainment" is way lower. 3 and Seed are the films I least enjoy and I'd still watch either of them before a Jason film probably 9 out of 10 times. Then you toss in the fact that its got the same creative mind behind it constantly working to adapt and change to keep the franchise alive and from burning out. I just find that really compelling both as like just an academic thing but in that it gives me a reason to really appreciate Seed. Because even if its a low point for me I can plainly see how and why Mancini got there. Again, straight up movie to movie I think there's better films with Universal. But I've made my case on why I don't really consider "The Universals" or "Larry Talbot Saga" as fair players in this. I considered the idea that the Frankenstein Franchise itself is a worthy challenger to Chucky. But as I thought that out I think I've decided that even if I accepted that as good as Frankenstein, Bride, and Abbot & Costello are I still prefer the consistency of Chucky. In the other contests while I think I rather watch the first Wishmaster to any single Friday the 13th entry 10 out of 10 times I've argued against the "1 movie vs a franchise" thing all tourney so I feel I have to give Jason my vote. And I'm leaning towards the Exorcist as the purer horror but I'm still planning to binge Alien and give it a chance to flip me. And I'm still 100% Romero. STAC Goat fucked around with this message at 20:39 on May 1, 2020 |
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May 1, 2020 20:35
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STAC Goat posted:To me I think Chucky is kind of what a bunch of people say Friday the 13th is to them. None of the Chucky movies are great but none of them are really bad either. The whole franchise is consistently entertaining even as the style and approach changes. Except Friday the 13th was just never actually entertaining to me and I think the base level of "consistent entertainment" is way lower. 3 and Seed are the films I least enjoy and I'd still watch either of them before a Jason film probably 9 out of 10 times. Seed is pretty bad. But you convinced me to change my vote already. I think if the Larry Talbot Saga is one franchise than Alien and Predator are one franchise and Nightmare and Friday are one franchise.
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May 1, 2020 20:43
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Irony.or.Death posted:Thank you! I checked them for Frankenstein but apparently putting in Whale's name instead of Universal made sure I didn't find it. If this and Bride sway my vote, they will have you to thank. Curse and Cult are the two I have left! Maybe I'll get swayed  The 2019 remake is also pretty good, I didn't love it as much as other people did, but it's definitely entertaining.
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May 1, 2020 20:51
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I think Curse and Cult really do something to change your view on the franchise. It did for me at least. Up to that point the Chucky franchise was just another 80s franchise that devolved from scary to silly to stupid. But Mancini finding a way to make it scary again with Curse and trying to marry everything and turn it into something with Cult really made me look at the whole thing differently. I wouldn't think much of Chucky if not for them. He'd be a fun monster with 1 or 2 good movies and more "bad". But the full path of all 7 Mancini films paints a really different picture for me. Also Fiona Dourif was really kind of a revelationary addition to the franchise. STAC Goat fucked around with this message at 20:58 on May 1, 2020 |
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May 1, 2020 20:55
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Irony.or.Death posted:I haven't seen the 2019 yet just because a remake at that point in franchise continuity felt like such a sad and needless thing when it was so much healthier than any of the other classics, but people claim it's pretty good too and really I can forgive it since, like, it's a direction all the major franchises have gone so maybe it was sensible for Chucky to check it out once. I hope Fiona Dourif gets to go to a space station in the next movie or two, though. The 2019 reboot thing isn't a Don Mancini decision, it was a purely mercenary business move on the rights of MGM, the owners of the rights to the original Child's Play. It feels more like a script for a different idea that was snapped up and the CP label was slapped onto it. And yet, it still turned out all right. Not great, not awful, fairly entertaining as mid-budget horror films go. I don't know if it did well enough to warrant a sequel, but I'd watch one if they did get around to making it.
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May 1, 2020 20:59
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Yeah, I haven't seen the remake so like... its easy for me to discount it but its a lot like how I discount Snyder's Dawn of the Dead when I consider the Night of the Living Dead series. There's 7 films by the same creative mind in the same continuity and then 1 film just doing its own thing. To me that's separate. I still hope Mancini finds a way to continue his journey with Chucky and Fiona. I want to see where he goes next.
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May 1, 2020 21:04
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STAC Goat posted:Yeah, I haven't seen the remake so like... its easy for me to discount it but its a lot like how I discount Snyder's Dawn of the Dead when I consider the Night of the Living Dead series. There's 7 films by the same creative mind in the same continuity and then 1 film just doing its own thing. To me that's separate. TV series is due out on SyFy next year and Mancini is pretty heavily involved. He's also still talking like there's gonna be 2 more DTV movies that he's working on for after the show's first season is done, which will pick up from where Cult left off. (The series is supposed to be more of a side story thing while Cult is ongoing, or even maybe as a prequel to that one. They've been kind of cagey on where it's supposed to fit, continuity-wise, as I understand it.)
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May 1, 2020 21:11
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For anyone who's only seen the first two Child's Play movies and dont quite understand how amazing the whole series is, at one point Tiffany (voiced by Jennifer Tilly) and Chucky literally go searching for the real Jennifer Tilly to resurrect them into human bodies or someshit, and 
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May 1, 2020 22:12
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Also Redman is canonically dead in the Chucky verse. Which is sad but also amuses me highly.
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May 1, 2020 22:16
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STAC Goat posted:Also Redman is canonically dead in the Chucky verse. Which is sad but also amuses me highly. I think the role was also originally written for Quentin Tarantino, who was going to do it when the film was scheduled to shoot in Los Angeles. When the budget got trimmed and they had to move production to Romania instead, Tarantino departed and Redman eventually got brought in to play that role. So, just think... in some alternate universe, we would have gotten to see Quentin Tarantino get disemboweled by a murderous doll as intended!
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May 1, 2020 22:39
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Class3KillStorm posted:I think the role was also originally written for Quentin Tarantino, who was going to do it when the film was scheduled to shoot in Los Angeles. When the budget got trimmed and they had to move production to Romania instead, Tarantino departed and Redman eventually got brought in to play that role. It sounds like Jennifer Tilly dodged a hastily crowbarred-in toe sucking scene
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May 1, 2020 22:51
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I think people who are trying to disqualify Universal Monsters on not being a true franchise need to remember... 50% of the Bela Dracula appearances are in the Crossover movies not including the BS Draculas 80% of the Wolfman appearances are in the Crossover movies 50% of the Monster's appearances are in Crossover movies There's also an ensemble element to consider. Cheney and Lugosi all take stabs at playing the Monster. Karloff plays the Doctor in House. Lugosi plays the inconic Ygor rule that is probably more famous than Fritz from the original Frankenstein. Comparing it to Predator vs Alien is disingenuous. Like Alien vs Predator doesn't really jive with the actual Alien films. The Universal monsters always felt like they had the same DNA even before they officially crossed over. More than that, they established this sense of the Classic monsters that would loom over horror for years to come. It's an unique franchise but it's a franchise.
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May 1, 2020 23:05
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Does Mary Shelley's Frankenhole count as part of the Universal Monsters franchise? Also does the Monster Bash pinball game count?
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May 1, 2020 23:12
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Timeless Appeal posted:I think people who are trying to disqualify Universal Monsters on not being a true franchise need to remember... I guess my counter to that would be: 100% of Mark Ruffalo's appearances as Hulk are in crossover movies. 84% (?) of Scarlett Johanson's appearances as Black Widow are in crossover movies. 75% of Benedict Cumberbatch's appearances as Doctor Strange are in crossover movies. 75% of Chadwick Boseman's appearances as Black Panther are in crossover movies. 70% of Robert Downey Jr's appearances as Iron Man are in crossover movies. 60% of Tom Holland's appearances as Spider-Man are in crossover movies. 57% (?) of Chris Evans' appearances as Captain America are in crossover movies. 50% of Brie Larson's appearances as Captain Marvel are in crossover movies. Would we consider the MCU a "franchise", though? I consider it a "universe" and instead there's like a Captain America and Iron Man and Thor franchises within it. Maybe you don't see it that way but that's how I kind of see it, and that's also how I see the Universal Films. There's a Dracula franchise and a Frankenstein franchise and they crossover into a bigger universe. The Universal movies are awesome, historic, and what Universal did was truly unique and remarkable to the point where in 100 years of cinema the only real comparison to it is the biggest mega billion dollar experimental thing that's happened in Hollywood maybe ever. But I think its that uniqueness that sets it aside as something entirely different from the other "franchises." STAC Goat fucked around with this message at 23:28 on May 1, 2020 |
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May 1, 2020 23:24
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Drunkboxer posted:Does Mary Shelley's Frankenhole count as part of the Universal Monsters franchise? Also does the Monster Bash pinball game count? I'm definitely voting Universal if it extends to Frankenhooker
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May 1, 2020 23:45
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I haven’t thought about it before but I guess I do consider the MCU as a single franchise. It’s a big part of why I stopped watching them, it felt like a chore keeping up with something I only found marginally entertaining.
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May 1, 2020 23:47
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STAC Goat posted:I guess my counter to that would be: ... Yes, the MCU is a franchise. That's a ridiculous question. Universe and Franchise are the same term, Universe just gets tossed around because it's in vogue since MCU means the Marvel Cinematic Universe. They're in continuity with each other, they inform each other, they are made by the same company and have the same creators and the same production, they are part of the same franchise. Just like Godzilla is a Franchise. Just like James Bond is arguably a Franchise. There are different continuities- Godzilla has several that are very distinct. The Universal lot have several as well over the decades. Don't let branding get in the way of terminology. There's a reason why Blade isn't part of the MCU- it's because that isn't an MCU movie. It's not in continuity and it's not part of that Franchise. In this instance, Universe and Franchise are interchangeable. Wonder Woman is part of the main DCU franchise, while Joker is not. Both are DC movies, but one is part of the greater narrative and the other is not. That's the difference.
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May 1, 2020 23:51
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STAC Goat posted:I guess my counter to that would be: Yeah, if crossover movies make them a franchise then AvP and Freddy vs. Jason really gently caress everything up. I think it's a bad precedent to set.
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May 1, 2020 23:51
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Given how complicated some of these franchise discussions are I wonder if there’s an argument for including Invasion of the Body Snatchers in the next iteration. There’s not any continuity between the various films (other than the gag in ‘78) but honestly some of these “franchises” don’t have much continuity anyway. If treated as a whole it would easily beat some of the garbage tier stuff and I think it would be interesting to see how far it would go.
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May 1, 2020 23:54
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Burkion posted:... I don't remotely understand the history of Godzilla movies to speak on how I'd define them, but my knee jerk thought is that Godzilla is a "franchise" that crosses over with the King Kong "franchise" to create a broader continuity "universe." But then the current "MonsterVerse" is probably its own franchise separate from the "Godzilla Franchise" and "King Kong Franchise" which include the recent movies? Like I said, I really don't know them well enough to have a formed opinion. DCEU is branded a "universe" but its kind of also just its own "franchise" because it hasn't actually made any franchises within it. But its just a mess in general. Blade isn't part of the MCU... because its not. It was made 20 years before and isn't part of the design. Neither is Sam Raimi's Spider-Man. I get it if you just see the whole as its own thing too and find my viewpoint as pedantic. I respect that and have said I think I'm arguing in vain (and can't say I'm not pedantic as gently caress). But as I've said a big part of my problem with it is that I just think that the Universal Universe/Franchise/Saga is just fighting at a different weight class than everyone else in this tourney. Whether you agree with me that's an unfair edge or just think it speaks to its superiority over the rest is probably an individual call. david_a posted:Given how complicated some of these franchise discussions are I wonder if there’s an argument for including Invasion of the Body Snatchers in the next iteration. There’s not any continuity between the various films (other than the gag in ‘78) but honestly some of these “franchises” don’t have much continuity anyway. If treated as a whole it would easily beat some of the garbage tier stuff and I think it would be interesting to see how far it would go. STAC Goat fucked around with this message at 00:18 on May 2, 2020 |
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May 2, 2020 00:14
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If we're playing by Continuity rules, the way a franchise works is if you have three films in continuity within those franchises or universes, whatever you want to count it as. For a very brief breakdown on Godzilla- there are two primary timelines. Both start with 1954 Gojira, but veer off from there. The Showa Continuity picks up in 1955 with Godzilla Raids Again, then has the crossover with Toho's version of King Kong (specifically that one, and not the original or other versions) and then has a crossover with Mothra, and then has a crossover with Mothra and Rodan to fight a new monster. Because there were more than just Godzilla films being made at the time. Just like in the Universal franchise, independent but later connected films were being made. Rodan came out in 1956 and had no ties to Gojira, the Mysterians came out in 1957, Varan came out in '58, Mothra came out in 1961, all their own films that did not tie into Godzilla at all. King Kong VS Godzilla then happened in 1962 after it started its life as Frankenstein VS King Kong, which then was followed by the in house continuity crossover of VS Mothra. Even after this, individual Kaiju movies were being made that weren't part of or involved Godzilla, just as the Universal films didn't involve Frankenstein, but are generally considered part of the continuity. This continuity ended in 1975. In 1984, Return of Godzilla kicked off the Heisei continuity, which discarded the entire previous lineup of films and all of their monsters and everything in them except 1954's Gojira. This continuity carried on into 1995's Godzilla VS Destroyah, and does not include the other monster movies made in the Heisei era, including up to Shin Godzilla, but Shin Godzilla is generally lumped into the Reiwa Era since it's from 2016, just as Return of is considered Heisei despite being from 1984. And the films in between VS Destroyah and Shin all have their OWN continuities. Godzilla 2000 presumably sits at its own little table and isn't even in continuity with VS Megagirus released a year later (2000, amusingly enough) which is roughly in continuity with 1954 but with the ending changed so that Godzilla was never killed. And looked different. GMK disregards all of that and only keeps 1954 again, and then is disregarded by the duology of Godzilla X MechaGodzilla and Godzilla, Mothra, MechaGodzilla, Tokyo SOS WHICH IS IMPORTANT TO BRING UP Because THIS film is in continuity with the original 1954 Godzilla, with one detail changed that Godzilla's skeleton remained so that it could be turned into this version of MechaGodzilla, and it is in continuity with Mothra 1961, Frankenstein Conquers the World 1965 (Where Frankenstein's Monsters heart gets eaten by a feral child after the atomic bombs were dropped, who becomes a giant and then that giant fights Baragon, who would appear in the Showa Era film Destroy All Monsters and also appear in GMK) and War of the Gargantuas 1966 But is NOT in continuity with any Godzilla film after 1954's original. Only those disconnected films that would tie into the greater continuity later. Then you have Final Wars which is an island unto itself. The Legendary Movies are their own thing in their own continuity that don't tie into anything else. So, you know, I'm pretty much used to thinking about movies like this. It's why its easy for me to discount Alien and Predator because while Predator makes allusions to Alien, but AVP doesn't work in continuity with the ALIEN franchise at all. Similarly, Freddy VS Jason ties more into Jason's continuity than it does Freddy and is a single crossover film, VS a trend of the two co-existing from that point on as was the case with the Universal lot and the Godzilla franchise.
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May 2, 2020 00:39
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I've been wanting to get into the Godzilla... world for a few years now but I just have no idea how to approach it. One marathon I'll give it a try after creating a flow chart or something. Or just watch Godzilla to at least start. I see your position. And yeah, I can see how the "Vs" thing would be different from a different perspective where you were more used that stuff. We didn't even include The Ringu franchise or get into like it crossing over with Ju-on/The Grudge and all that stuff. Ultimately I think its hard to nail down strict rules on what makes a "franchise". I think Romero's Dead movies a franchise but none of the on or off brand sequels or remakes. But I also think The Thing is kind of a franchise even though its 3 remakes. Or I think TCM is a franchise even though its a mess of reboots and prequels. It all seems kind of floating and we're all gonna judge how we feel right about it. Or maybe everyone is consistent and I'm just a capricious fool. For me the Universals are a difficult, unique situation. But it wasn't an issue until it was up against a franchise I liked and felt "deserved fairer". So you know.
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May 2, 2020 00:57
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One crucial detail I forgot to bring up but love to mention The connecting element from King Kong VS Godzilla to Frankenstein Conquers the World and then War of the Gargantuas is Oodako, a giant monster you've probably never heard of. He is a giant octopus that pops up to fight King Kong, then he inexplicably shows up to kill Frankenstein's monster in an alternate ending to the film that was never on the TV version OR the theatrical release but is the canon ending of the film because The titular Gargantuans in the next film are the 'children' of the Monster, one grown from discarded flesh left on land and one grown from the flesh that was left to the ocean after Oodako killed him, and that one gets into a fight of revenge for killing their progenitor. And to tie this back again into horror, which it already technically is because Frankenstein, Scooby Doo Mystery Incorporated has an entire episode dedicated to this last movie including its amazing dubbed song "The Words Keep Getting Stuck In My Throat" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VP5LZOsGkzw Because gently caress YOUR MAINSTREAM HORROR CONVOLUTION this is the Godzilla franchise! AND THIS IS ALSO CANON IN THE MECHAGODZILLA FILMS WHERE THE BONES OF GODZILLA ARE USED TO MAKE A GIANT CYBORG WHO TEAMS UP WITH MOTHRA TO BEAT UP HIS SON AND FIRES ABSOLUTE ZERO ENERGY BECAUSE gently caress YOU Godzilla is the best dumbest greatest thing. ALSO Oodako and Godzilla would later team up to fight terrorists and Oodako gets a shout out in Kong Skull Island. The best obscure z list kaiju, ever
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May 2, 2020 01:10
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TrixRabbi posted:I think Universal Monsters is the one to beat it. No one can defeat Jason.
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May 2, 2020 01:21
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Except for an elite team of commandos with a honeypot.
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May 2, 2020 01:27
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