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I don't like voting against Hellraiser, but the time has finally come. Sad day.
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May 5, 2020 19:41
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Franchescanado posted:I love Tremors, and really like Tremors 2, but Manhunter and Silence of the Lambs is a 1-2 Punch that can't be dodged. Plus "Hannibal" the TV series is one of the best tv series of the 2010s. The "Tremors" tv series was not one of the best tv series of the 2000s.
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May 5, 2020 19:44
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Burkion posted:Those same arguments that started to break down and switched to "I'm voting emotionally rather than logically"? I worded that poorly - when I said they "aren't really a franchise in the same way as most everything else" I don't mean whether they technically count because of continuity or whatever, I'm saying that I think Child's Play is a better as a franchise because they form a more consistent and cohesive series of films, even if none of them hit the same heights as the best of the Universal movies. Maybe it's emotional more than logical, but that's going to be the case for most match ups. Basebf555 posted:I'm not sure I really follow your logic because you're saying that just the Frankenstein films alone would've been enough to vote against Child's Play. So why not limit your consideration to just the Frankenstein films and vote accordingly? Why disqualify the entry all together? If it were just the Frankenstein films it would be different because on their own I do think they are consistent with each other thematically and in terms of style/tone. Dracula/The Wolf Man/etc feel like their own separate things that crossed over with each other. I'm not disqualifying them, I genuinely think Child's Play is a better franchise when compared to the Universal films as a whole (or even just the "Larry Talbot saga").
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May 5, 2020 19:45
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Irony.or.Death posted:I don't like voting against Hellraiser, but the time has finally come. Sad day. The true horror of the challenge: we all must turn to our cherished horror films and vote against them, like Travis aiming the rifle to put a bullet in rabid Old Yeller, because they are infected with lackluster sequels.
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May 5, 2020 19:49
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gey muckle mowser posted:If it were just the Frankenstein films it would be different because on their own I do think they are consistent with each other thematically and in terms of style/tone. Dracula/The Wolf Man/etc feel like their own separate things that crossed over with each other. I'm not disqualifying them, I genuinely think Child's Play is a better franchise when compared to the Universal films as a whole (or even just the "Larry Talbot saga"). Yea I see what you're saying and it does make sense. One of Child's Play's biggest strengths is it's cohesiveness over time, even as it evolved and changed pretty drastically. It wasn't enough to sway my vote but still it was a major plus in Child's Play's column.
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May 5, 2020 19:50
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Michael over TCM, no question for me. No hesitation at all or second guess. But I'm prepared for the vote to break my heart. Hannibal over Tremors. This is the place I wish Chucky or Exorcist landed. Freddy over Scream. I love Scream but Nightmare is my childhood horror and remains the franchise I will have a hard time voting against. Evil Dead in a walk. If Freedy prevails I will have a difficult time with this next round.
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May 5, 2020 19:54
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STAC Goat posted:Michael over TCM, no question for me. No hesitation at all or second guess. But I'm prepared for the vote to break my heart. My votes and thoughts exactly.
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May 5, 2020 19:57
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STAC Goat posted:Michael over TCM, no question for me. No hesitation at all or second guess. But I'm prepared for the vote to break my heart. I actually agree with all of these; mostly because the winners all have much more compelling villains/personalities. Seriously, how do you NOT pick Freddy Krueger over Ghostface?
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May 5, 2020 19:57
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Fritz Coldcockin posted:I actually agree with all of these; mostly because the winners all have much more compelling villains/personalities. Seriously, how do you NOT pick Freddy Krueger over Ghostface? Very good point. Scream is great, but I will constantly reiterate that Nightmares 1-4 are compelling, creative and bear-minimum watchable and two of them are just legit great films. Also, let me take a moment to recommend Nightmare fans watch Scream, Queen!: My Nightmare On Elm Street, about the filming and fall-out caused by Nightmare on Elm Street Part 2, which came out this year(ish).
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May 5, 2020 20:00
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The only things I haven't seen of this lot are a couple of the later Hellraiser sequels and the Hannibal series. I've been wanting to do a whole Hannibal binge but can't get my hands on a copy of films at the same time. Maybe I'll give it a try this week or at least use this as a reason to finally watch Hannibal. I'm looking for a new series to start anyway. Maybe I'll do those Hellraiser sequels as well just to finish them off finally.
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May 5, 2020 20:10
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STAC Goat posted:The only things I haven't seen of this lot are a couple of the later Hellraiser sequels and the Hannibal series. I've been wanting to do a whole Hannibal binge but can't get my hands on a copy of films at the same time. Maybe I'll give it a try this week or at least use this as a reason to finally watch Hannibal. I'm looking for a new series to start anyway. Maybe I'll do those Hellraiser sequels as well just to finish them off finally. Manhunter and Hannibal are on STARZ
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May 5, 2020 20:12
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Franchescanado posted:Manhunter and Hannibal are on STARZ Red Dragon too. Silence is airing on BBC America on the 10th, but my cable company is loving with me again and says it won't record. Only think missing is Hannibal Rising, which is the only movie I haven't seen. So maybe if I can figure out the BBC thing I'll make that this week's schedule.
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May 5, 2020 20:16
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The series is three seasons so you'd really have to focus to get through it all in a week. It's definitely bingeworthy though, I remember the wait between episodes for that show was extremely painful.
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May 5, 2020 20:18
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It's a bit annoying that Silence of the Lambs isn't on Kanopy or Criterion Channel right now.
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May 5, 2020 20:24
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Franchescanado posted:Very good point. Robert Englund is great; a buddy of mine met him at Comic-Con last year and he was super-friendly  Sidenote: Does anyone know if there's any place where I can find the Bravo 100 Scariest Movie Moments series besides the crappy versions on YouTube?
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May 5, 2020 20:31
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Basebf555 posted:The series is three seasons so you'd really have to focus to get through it all in a week. It's definitely bingeworthy though, I remember the wait between episodes for that show was extremely painful. Oh, I doubt I'd make it through in the week but it would be a good excuse to start it finally. That's mostly what this all is to me. An excuse to break the analysis paralysis/binge hole thing and give me something else to fill the endless, empty, quarantine, isolated, lonely, empty, please won't someone hug me, hours.
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May 5, 2020 20:48
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This conversation made me finally pull the trigger on purchasing Criterion's Silence of the Lambs blu. edit: Tremors Criterion when?
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May 5, 2020 20:50
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The only thing keeping me from buying it for months has been that I swear I already own the movie and I just can't find it. Shame Silence is such a good film that there will never be some cheap multiset of th efranchise I can pick up.
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May 5, 2020 20:51
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STAC Goat posted:The only thing keeping me from buying it for months has been that I swear I already own the movie and I just can't find it. Oh there for sure has been. I've walked past many "Hannibal Collection" DVDs with two or three of the movies in Targets and Walmarts with Silence.
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May 5, 2020 20:53
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STAC Goat posted:Only think missing is Hannibal Rising, which is the only movie I haven't seen. You aren't missing much if you end up skipping this, by the way. I ended up voting Scream over the Nightmare series, because while Scream 3 and 4 are both weak, they're not as bad as ANoES 5 or 6. I also don't think much, personally, of 2, 3 or New Nightmare, so while I like Freddy as a character, I don't think much of the films around him. Plus, Scream stands head and shoulders above pretty much any other ANoES movie, including the first, in terms of sheer quality. That's what ended up sealing the deal for me - I don't think that the bad parts of the Scream series weigh against the great first movie too much, while the Nightmare series has a much lower quality ceiling and a lot more dead weight pulling it down further. I haven't seen the TV series for either, though - would they drastically change the equations here? (Asking primarily about the MTV "Scream" show here, which always seemed pretty unconnected from the movies as a whole to me, from a first glance.)
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May 5, 2020 21:01
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I know I already gave my big defense of Scream that was quoted... but I think I'll add this one last thing. Scream is the perfection of A Nightmare on Elm Street. Craven has this thread in his movies of horror as catharsis that you can even argue is present in Last House on the Left. With A Nightmare on Elm Street, Freddy is very much the personification of trauma and abuse. I disagree with the take that he's definitely a child molester because it's just too specific. Freddy isn't Fred Krueger, the guy who got off and burnt alive. He's a ghostly exaggeration of that man--the idea of an abuser abstracted as the boogy man. The film's end is logical, the hero takes her power back from him... except it just doesn't work. Not in the sense of literally not working and the BS ending. As a film, A Nightmare just falls apart with the ending. Craven has this potent idea of a heroine not just surviving, but being empowered by these events, but it's depicted in such a straight forward and literal new age-y way that it has no weight. Nancy is well acted and well depicted, but I always found there was this weird disconnect with her and Freddy. I think part of it is that Heather is just way elevated over her co-stars. She feels like a real teen girl in a way that they don't. They're stock horror characters and their deaths are not impactful, so the sense of trauma Heather experiences doesn't feel the same as Sydney's. Scream corrects that last bit. The two big deaths of the film are downright harrowing. A woman never dies in Scream or is threatened with violence and you're not rooting for her. I was a big horror hound as a kid, but Drew Barrymore's death really hit me in a way other scenes just never have before. It was heartbreaking. It felt like the hero died and I think that's just one of a few magic tricks that scene is pulling off. But the ending is where Craven with Williamson really nailed what he'd been trying to say and articulate with the end of Nightmare. And now it doesn't feel like a copout. it feels earned, dramatic, and truly empowering. Sydney doesn't just take back her power from Billy, but from horror movies in general. Nancy is famously--in the context of the first film and ignoring Dream Warriors--implied to be killed regardless of her self-growth. When Randy explains that Billy will just come back from one last scare, well you know the rest... But it's Craven literally rewriting the bullshit ending New Line pushed on him. Scream is the perfection of A Nightmare and while Craven would go on to make some disappointing movies, it was incredibly impressive to see a horror director not only hit his peak after nearly three decades in horror, but do so with a work that really felt like the culmination of his resume. But outside of that, let me make an important argument about why Nightmare is just not deserving of your vote. Part of why Child's Play was a strong contender against Universal was because Brad Douriff is a powerhouse. And that's a trend that is not uncommon. A lot of heavy hitters in this bracket like Evil Dead are buoyed by a really strong consistent actor, or in the case of Universal Horror, actors. It's what elevates something like Hellraiser or Halloween despite the lows of their franchises. So, it needs to be said, it's offensive that there are bad A Nightmare on Elm Street movies. Not only did it loving hog the best slasher premise ever, it has the best horror villain ever. And it loving squanders it. Really meditate on this thought... --They're movies about being killed in your dreams --They star Freddy loving Krueger And a lot of them are bad. That's loving ridiculous. And anyone who comes in here defending 4-6 needs to realize that you're eating a well done steak and saying it's good because of the cut. Timeless Appeal fucked around with this message at 21:44 on May 5, 2020 |
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May 5, 2020 21:39
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Well I'm deeply saddened that The Exorcist fell, but I'll waste no time being bitter or petty Alien is bad and you should feel bad The only really tough choice for me here is Halloween versus TCM, so I'll give both a rewatch over the next week and see how I feel
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May 5, 2020 22:21
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NOES 4 is fun tho. Shame that TCM will probably lose, considering that the original TCM is the best film in this set of matchups.
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May 5, 2020 22:21
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Origami Dali posted:Shame that TCM will probably lose, considering that the original TCM is the best film in this set of matchups. Just head to head, TCM vs. Halloween is a no brainer for me. Both series have their fair share of garbage sequels so weighing them feels irrelevant to me. But even with that in mind, the insanity of TCM wins my heart every day of the week over Halloween. Look, I love John Carpenter, I respect the hell out of what Halloween did for this genre and film in general, but to me the original film shows its age. It's slow, Michael Myers has never grabbed me as a villain the way Jason or Freddy do. I don't like having to disparage the film, but compared to TCM it's just not even close. The original Texas Chainsaw Massacre feels like it was found in a dingy basement, never meant to be seen by human eyes. Even today it is terrifying, grimy, gooey, covered in dust and dried blood. It so perfectly captures the primal feeling of fear in a way few films have ever done. I'll concede Jamie Lee Curtis is perhaps our greatest scream queen, but Marilyn Burns delivers a performance so frenzied and authentic it's agonizing to watch, not just for the violence but the trauma instantly being born on screen. Leatherface is one of the most evocative killers in the history of horror, and the final ear-piercing sequence as he runs out into the street with his chainsaw is, well words escape me, haunting feels so cliche to describe the bone-chilling perfection of that moment. And then when you do start weighing sequels in you have the Cannon Films insanity of Part 2, which leans deep into the comedy and has Dennis Hopper and a mountain of bones. Halloween II is drab as all hell, a dry retread of the first film except recast in a hospital without Carpenter's skills behind the camera to make it captivating. Halloween III is of course its own thing, and perhaps there's been too little discussion of it as to how it affects the voting, though tbh while it's a ton of fun it's a bit overrated. It was so reviled on release I think fans have overcompensated by trying to elevate it to masterpiece level when in reality it's just very good. But quality starts dropping off soon, and just as TCM has its fair of slop so does Halloween. Both franchises came back with fascinating remakes - the somehow meaner 2003 TCM that started off the horror remake wave and the underrated Rob Zombie Halloweens, of which Halloween 2 actually is among my favorites. But I don't know. I get the attachment to Halloween but this is no question for me. The original TCM is bare none the best single film in the entire Haddonfield division, it could even claim to be the best film in the entire tournament, up there with NotLD, Alien and Evil Dead II. I know plenty of y'all would say the same for Halloween, but before you vote I urge you all to give TCM a rewatch and appreciate the beauty of its filth.
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May 5, 2020 22:55
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How come people don’t like Red Dragon very much? I always dug it, but it doesn’t seem to get much love around here.
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May 5, 2020 23:10
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TheBizzness posted:How come people don’t like Red Dragon very much? I always dug it, but it doesn’t seem to get much love around here. Compare the wheelchair scene at the end here with this sexyness.
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May 5, 2020 23:37
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I have to take TCM over Halloween. TCM's best films are just so much better than Halloween and they hold up better. When you watch them now they still have this gravity and originality to them. When you watch Halloween, much like with watching the first two Friday the 13th entries, they just haven't aged that well. They get some points as progenitors but ultimately haven't stood the test of time in a way that TCM has. I still just don't think Lecterverse counts as horror to me. Its movies are textbook thrillers in my opinion, not horror. While they have tension and the main character is in danger, I was never worried I'd have nightmares about them, even when I watched the Manhunter at like 9 years old. So I'm going to vote Tremors even though I think this has stayed far longer than it really should. I have to go with Nightmare over Scream. Ghostface, while a horror icon, just doesn't stand as a cultural phenomenon at the level Freddy Krueger does. And of course Evil Dead... hahaha... the first Hellraiser isn't even that good. Those movies get by entirely on the Barker-born weirdness and the monster designs. I can't wait until somebody reboots that franchise because Pinhead and company deserve so much better than any of the movies they're in.
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May 6, 2020 01:37
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Texas Chainsaw Massacre over Halloween because TCM 1 is the actual scariest film ever made, 2 is genuinely funny, and The Next Generation is so deeply baffling it needs to be preserved. Lecterverse over Tremors. Freddy over Scream most definitely, because I gently caress with that dream logic. I'll be the single person who votes Hellraiser over Evil Dead. The Evil Dead movies are all great and Hellraiser falls down a cliff after 2, but those first two were foundational to me.
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May 6, 2020 02:02
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Carpenter's stuff has aged extremely well in general in my opinion, Halloween obviously included. As the years go by they only seem to look better and better compared to the stuff that gets churned out today. That's not to say TCM hasn't though, this matchup is definitely splitting hairs and could go either way.
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May 6, 2020 04:14
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Lookin at these early results, if anyone wants to write 3-5,000 words on why the graboids rule despite having objectively the worst monster name in the bracket, uhhhh... This would be the time to do so 
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May 6, 2020 04:17
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TCM vs Halloween is so grueling for me, because I keep flipping between the original Halloween and TCM as being my favorite movie. And I just had to come down sequels, and I just feel that Halloween just has more movies I like and respect over TCM's shallower puddle of much worse lows. As for Tremors vs Hannibal, I can only go on each of their respective Highlights, #1 and Silence. And I just had to go for my heart. And while I respect Silence, my memories of it mean a lot less than the good time I had with Tremors. I respect Silence, but I feel like my viewing experience was as observation, a check to mark off as one of the greatest movies. Enjoyed, but I felt distant. With Tremors 1, that movie was a lot of loving fun. It just invites you to buy into it's rediculous premise with charisma and charm and an elephant gun. Silence, to me, is a night watching opera that is enjoyed for an evening. Tremors is the house party that you reflect back and go, "That's who I was. That was my 20's. That was the night where I felt like the world was just right." I respect the fact that Hannibal will win. But in terms of being what I love most about this genre, and for the matter this medium, I had to go with Tremors.
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May 6, 2020 06:41
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TCM and Halloween both have all-timer first installments and a real mixed bag of sequels. And some unbelievably lovely remakes. It's really difficult.
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May 6, 2020 09:21
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TheBizzness posted:How come people don’t like Red Dragon very much? I always dug it, but it doesn’t seem to get much love around here. Only negative I can say about Manhunter is it's very 80s. Red Dragon just felt a bit too polished to me, so it's Manhunter hands down. As far as the other matchups go, some hard choices to make here. Tremors vs Lecter feels like comparing comfort food to high end fancy dining. While they're both food and edible, you can't really put the two on a table to compare because there's so many differences and appeal. I'm quicker to do a Tremors marathon than I am a Lecter marathon. When I do watch Lecter, it's just Manhunter and Silence. I didn't like the Hannibal book at all, movie didn't click with me to where I have no interest in sitting through Hannibal Rising or sitting through the show. I have sat through the Tremors series and it's got it's moments. I like both TCM and Halloween, but drat I hated that Cult of Thorn bullshit with Halloween and the last batch of TCM films are stuck in this oroborus of interchangeable prequels that if someone did an adaptation of the awful fanfics having Leatherface in High School dealing with prom/dating/that math class test would be a breath of fresh air at this point. NoES vs Scream? Scream's tight, especially the first three films. I like we're given a full arc of survivor of slasher having to cope with the aftermath and how it effected them. The fourth's not so much bad but felt like a bit of a cash grab, but when you figure it's poking at the concept of remakes that's just another layer of meta. The TV series sucked something fierce. NoES has it's highs and lows, but they're all watchable except for that craptastic remake. I'd rate Freddy's Nightmares as better than the Scream TV series. Evil Dead vs Hellraiser...hmmm. Evil Dead's pure quality over quantity. Even with my issue with the remake, it's still a pretty solid film. I absolutely loved the Ash vs Evil Dead TV series. Hellraiser, while I'm a lot more forgiving of some of the films compared to most in the horror threads, the last two films really tarnished the overall whole to me. I really liked the angle that the Cenobites were their own thing and the Labyrinth being "Hell" was more how that being the only way we can comprehend how alien it is. Making it actual Hell and there being a Heaven with angels just tanked the allure the concept of beings where pain and pleasure are indistinguishable had for me that I'm not really interested in any future entries in the franchise.
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May 6, 2020 10:23
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TCM beats Halloween for me, but it's a close one and entirely personal experience-based. TCM was the first horror movie I ever saw (in 4th grade because I got the VHS from the library and the librarian apparently wasn't paying attention to what I was getting? And I have no idea why it was at my tiny town's library in the first place?) and informed my horror preferences for my entire life. The first film is, no hyperbole, a masterpiece. Every shot, every interaction, it's an absolute master class in filmmaking and sound design. It's hard to think about legacy in terms of these two franchises though. It seems like every movie that I really love (grimy slashery murder horror) is an absolute combination of both TCM and Halloween in its genetic makeup. BUT, when I really stop to think of it, I think most of what I love pulls more from giallo than Americanized slashers. And for that...... I have to give it to TCM. Hannibal-verse beats Tremors. This one's easy for me. SotL, Manhunter, good lord the incredible TV show. I mean, gently caress, the movie entered the cultural zeitgeist for a GENERATION, and the TV show is hands down one of the best of its DECADE. No contest for me. Freddy beats Scream, but it's also a close one. I think they're both equally good in their own ways, but I don't think we'd have the Scream franchise without the Nightmare franchise. For that, and for the fact that I just LOVE the Freddy movies to death, it gets my vote. Evil Dead beats Hellraiser, but... ugh I hate to do it. drat it, these choices are getting really hard to make. Hellraiser holds an incredibly dear place in my heart, but Evil Dead 2 and Army of Darkness were touchstones of my youth, and then the Evil Dead remake is one of the best horror remakes I've seen. Hellraiser had a good first movie and a decent second movie, but that's it. And I think Evil Dead is far more influential in horror than Hellraiser was. I dunno, this one's all gut feeling for me. If anything, they were tied until I thought of the Evil Dead remake.
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May 6, 2020 14:06
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I have a lot more nostalgia for Halloween as a franchise and I can say with ease that Halloween is probably the better movie. TCM is great, but gosh does it drag at times. The highs are so high people forget it where as Halloween is fantastic in maintaining tension the entire time despite not being a very violent movie. But if we're being very honest, Halloween should have never been a franchise at all. Horror villains tend to get refined in sequels, even Pinhead for at least one movie. But Michael is just constantly diminished until the recent film. There's something vaguely humiliating about Halloween sequels as it tried to catch up with the genre it spun, but produce poo poo that makes a lesser Friday the 13th look like The Exorcist. It's also a mess of a franchise that is operating with four separate timelines. Halloween OG Timeline Halloween/Halloween II/H20/Resurrection Timeline Halloween/Halloween '18 Timeline Halloween 3 And that's not including Zombie's stuff. And while I love Halloween 3, it suffers from the internet hyperbole syndrome of a "This is actually fun and goofy and not as bad as people say" hot-take evolving into the belief that it's actually good. TCM also should never have been a franchise, but it at least has one sequel that is one of the greatest horror sequels of all time. It makes the best of being a film that shouldn't have sequels in one film in a way that Halloween just never did. Timeless Appeal fucked around with this message at 18:28 on May 6, 2020 |
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May 6, 2020 14:24
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As much as I love TCM 1/2 (and I think the 2003 remake is fine, mostly for R. Lee Ermey), I have to go with Halloween. It's a close call, but I like the original Halloween better than the original TCM by just a hair and I think Halloween just has more good films overall, even if both franchises have some real stinkers. Hannibal over Tremors, easy. Freddy vs Scream is a really tough call. Scream is near perfect in my eyes and easily the best film out of both franchises, and as good as the first NoES is I never really loved any of the sequels. Voted Scream for now. I think I'm gonna give NoES 3 another shot soon as that seems to be the one that people regard as the best. Evil Dead wins hands down. Four amazing films and an excellent TV show. Army of Darkness is my least favorite but I'd still rank it way higher than any of the Hellraiser sequels after II.
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May 6, 2020 14:39
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I can’t believe I’ve lived long enough to see the reappraisal of Halloween III be reappraised.
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May 6, 2020 14:55
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I said it during an earlier matchup but unfortunately the inconsistency is probably going to prevent Halloween from winning it all, and for the first time I think it's really showing up. It's actually got a competitor now that has that one truly great, masterpiece film that can stand up to the OG Halloween, and then when you compare the sequels to each other that's gonna be down to personal preference and it could go either way. Halloween is one of my top-5 all-time favorite films though, and Michael was my #1 nightmare growing up. So yea, I'm rolling with Halloween until the very end.
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May 6, 2020 15:41
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Splint Chesthair posted:I can’t believe I’ve lived long enough to see the reappraisal of Halloween III be reappraised. I mean, there was definitely a time where people were hailing it as a forgotten masterpiece. Like, it is good, I enjoy it a lot (more than Halloween II if they're comparable), but people absolutely overcompensated in their praise for how it was dismissed on release.
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May 6, 2020 16:54
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Halloween III has definitely fallen into the mythical "so underrated its overrated" position.
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May 6, 2020 17:00
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