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EmpyreanFlux posted:Has there ever been a new CPU release without a new set of motherboards/chipsets? I can't think of one at all, even if they've been functionally similar. All of Bulldozer. From June 2011 until February 2017, the top chipset was the 990FX. Do not forget the dark days. e: I guess I should be honest and say that AMD was releasing new chipsets for those 5 years, but they were all for the APU sockets and mobile, and it wasnt until the extreme tail end of those years that they ever got feature parity with 990FX. AMD knew Bulldozer was dogshit, and the company was basically just trying to weather the storm until they could develop a replacement. Cygni fucked around with this message at 05:43 on May 6, 2020 |
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May 6, 2020 05:18
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I forgot entirely about that, Bulldozer and Piledriver kind of blend together in my memory. Still mystified why AMD didn't just develop a new universal socket for all the Construction core poo poo. Like the whole thing felt slipshod with AM3+, FM1, FM2 and FM2+, yet there is no way everything from Llano to at least Kaveri wasn't planned prior to release. I dunno it's all garbage and AMD could have stuck with K10 iterations and improved on the core design and had a way better outcome. I'm forming this opinion off of that Agner Fog PDF so maybe I'm wrong, but there seemed to be a lot of design space left to get rid of a bunch of bottlenecks in the K10 design that'd have gotten more effective performance than Bulldozer could have ever gotten in theory.
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May 6, 2020 06:17
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My socket AM3 Phenom II 965 BE lasted me a solid 10 years - I just retired it a few weeks ago. It was still handling modern games at 1080p but was really starting to struggle.
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May 6, 2020 06:55
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CaptainSarcastic posted:My socket AM3 Phenom II 965 BE lasted me a solid 10 years - I just retired it a few weeks ago. It was still handling modern games at 1080p but was really starting to struggle. Yeah I'm in the same boat, the last computer I built before my current was an AM3 socket MB with a Phenom II X4 965 from 2011, it was still running games "okay" as of November last year but was a bit long in the tooth. Hearing all this deep lore about the AMD dark ages is always very interesting to me... I went from AM3 to AM4 like the whole era of AMD ruin never happened.
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May 6, 2020 13:14
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Upgrading once a decade and wondering about human timescale lore... sounds like something an Ent would do.
GRINDCORE MEGGIDO fucked around with this message at 13:57 on May 6, 2020 |
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May 6, 2020 13:47
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I built a PC with an Athlon II X4 640 back in 2011 that chewed through three, maybe four graphics cards but was still going strong up until last year. I passed it on to my brother after I moved out in 2016, he put a GTX 1060 on it and was still gaming at a decent clip right up until my niece kicked the case hard enough to break the motherboard from behind. The CPU itself is probably still ok, but I replaced it with an FM2 board and an Athlon X4 860K because those old K10s don't have SSE 4.1/4.2 for something like Apex Legends or the later AssCreeds
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May 6, 2020 13:55
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Gaming requirements are all on console cycles now. I went from a 2012 i5-3570k to a 3600x and I was still running games at high on 1920x1080 with a ~2015. GPU upgrade.
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May 6, 2020 13:56
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Half Life: Alyx is what got me to upgrade my i5-3570k system for a new 3700x as it was chugging. I suspect it was mostly due to me only having 8gb of ram, but I wasn't about to invest in more ram at that point. Gave me an excuse to go mini-itx.
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May 6, 2020 14:02
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EmpyreanFlux posted:I forgot entirely about that, Bulldozer and Piledriver kind of blend together in my memory. Still mystified why AMD didn't just develop a new universal socket for all the Construction core poo poo. Like the whole thing felt slipshod with AM3+, FM1, FM2 and FM2+, yet there is no way everything from Llano to at least Kaveri wasn't planned prior to release. I think some of the socket changes might have been from power delivery requirements going up as AMD tried to keep a bad arch relevant by throwing watts at it. EmpyreanFlux posted:I dunno it's all garbage and AMD could have stuck with K10 iterations and improved on the core design and had a way better outcome. I'm forming this opinion off of that Agner Fog PDF so maybe I'm wrong, but there seemed to be a lot of design space left to get rid of a bunch of bottlenecks in the K10 design that'd have gotten more effective performance than Bulldozer could have ever gotten in theory. Translating from a description of where the bottlenecks are to what you'd need to do in silicon to fix them is a heck of a handwave. You've probably read some of the GCN vs RDNA arch comparisons too. The inefficiencies of GCN have been known for a long time, and it's been easy to see that they'd gotten more inefficient as the chip got wider. "You should fix that" was not news to AMD, yet they still made Vega. The whole Bulldozer CMT idea was both ahead of its time and not great. I think it was a swing for the fences, because they'd just spent 4-5 years having a major lead over intel but getting dicked* by monopoly power. K10 was just evolutionary, maybe it could have kept up with Core but it wasn't going to be the clear winner they needed. So they tried to go for a megadunk and clanked it off the rim. *and that dicking has never stopped, just gotten less illegal. recent GN video related a story of Steve asking why the AMD version of a laptop was only available in the basic/ugly colors while the intel versions had the cool colors. "Intel pays us for exclusive colors."
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May 6, 2020 16:22
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CaptainSarcastic posted:My socket AM3 Phenom II 965 BE lasted me a solid 10 years - I just retired it a few weeks ago. It was still handling modern games at 1080p but was really starting to struggle. My brudda. :hi5: I am eventually gonna get the thing mounted and framed.
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May 6, 2020 16:23
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bull3964 posted:Half Life: Alyx is what got me to upgrade my i5-3570k system for a new 3700x as it was chugging. I suspect it was mostly due to me only having 8gb of ram, but I wasn't about to invest in more ram at that point. Gave me an excuse to go mini-itx. Man, I loved my i5-3570k, what a beast of a CPU for a long time. Then I got the 1700X and saw the light. Thinking about dropping a 3900X into my X470 rig with the rest of my Trumpbux and replacing it. But not sure if now is the right time to do it
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May 6, 2020 16:37
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Tiny Tubesteak Tom posted:Thinking about dropping a 3900X into my X470 rig with the rest of my Trumpbux and replacing it. But not sure if now is the right time to do it I sat on my 3770k until the 3900x came out, but I'm probably going to upgrade more frequently now if progress is made. I need to stop being lazy and sell my 3770k + z77 extreme 6 before it loses all value.
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May 6, 2020 16:59
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Used Z77s are now going as low as $65 on Ebay. Seems like even the normally irrational Ebayers are learning that spending pretty cash to keep their old Intel quads running instead of going new/used Ryzens is an unwise idea.
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May 6, 2020 17:18
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GunnerJ posted:Yeah I'm in the same boat, the last computer I built before my current was an AM3 socket MB with a Phenom II X4 965 from 2011, it was still running games "okay" as of November last year but was a bit long in the tooth. Hearing all this deep lore about the AMD dark ages is always very interesting to me... I went from AM3 to AM4 like the whole era of AMD ruin never happened.  I think I went from socket 939 to AM3 to AM4 in terms of what my main desktop was running.SwissArmyDruid posted:My brudda. :hi5: I still have my old desktop sitting in the hall awaiting me deciding what to do with it. The thing is a champ. I might gift it to a relative, but should clean it up, update it, and maybe dial back the overclock since I doubt it would be used for games.
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May 6, 2020 19:31
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Looks like the tomahawk Max are back in stock at best buy: https://www.bestbuy.com/site/msi-b450-tomahawk-max-socket-am4-usb-c-gen2-amd-motherboard/6382716.p?skuId=6382716
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May 6, 2020 19:50
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Palladium posted:Used Z77s are now going as low as $65 on Ebay. Seems like even the normally irrational Ebayers are learning that spending pretty cash to keep their old Intel quads running instead of going new/used Ryzens is an unwise idea. Nah, I buy and sell a lot of used PC parts and Z77 boards can still be easily sold for $90+ if they're a decent model. I just sold a Intel DZ77GA-70K Extreme for $125 a few days ago and an Asus Z68 board for $110 about a week before that. Hell, people are still willing to pay around $100 for higher end Bulldozer and Phenom CPUs.
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May 6, 2020 19:57
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I'd sell my Z97/i7 4790k but I don't really want to redo my entire computer right now 
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May 6, 2020 20:15
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Klyith posted:I think some of the socket changes might have been from power delivery requirements going up as AMD tried to keep a bad arch relevant by throwing watts at it. I don't think they ever really exceeded ~165W IIRC? You'd need a power virus for that, and even the 95W APU SKUs hit like 115W. I don't know it seems relatively easy enough to plan for if you move to a ~1200 pin socket. You lose moving K10 to the new socket but gain a unified platform which makes users and partners happy. Klyith posted:Translating from a description of where the bottlenecks are to what you'd need to do in silicon to fix them is a heck of a handwave. You've probably read some of the GCN vs RDNA arch comparisons too. The inefficiencies of GCN have been known for a long time, and it's been easy to see that they'd gotten more inefficient as the chip got wider. "You should fix that" was not news to AMD, yet they still made Vega. I'm not really trying to be handwavey here, rather I'm guessing it'd be relatively cheaper to address bottlenecks in design for K10 than to pump R&D money into an entirely new uarch. I'm not trying to say it wouldn't be difficult, just cheaper and the results probably would have been better. K10 already had better per clock performance, Construction cores were actually a regression, and it wasn't until Excavator that they started to surpass K10. I can't dive into the minds of engineers of AMD past and it's likely a totally hindsight thing but it just seems weird asf for me, especially in light of Intel being able to revise Pentium III iteratively into Core. The whole post K10 period seemed like excessive waste and scattered ideas and projects, meaning a lot of wasted R&D money, IMHO.
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May 6, 2020 20:32
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The REAL Goobusters posted:Looks like the tomahawk Max are back in stock at best buy: https://www.bestbuy.com/site/msi-b450-tomahawk-max-socket-am4-usb-c-gen2-amd-motherboard/6382716.p?skuId=6382716 They’re a good board but I’ll point out two limitations: 1) storage ports are good not great, if you use the single .m2 slot it disables two of your SATA ports. 2) If you’re building an RGB monster, it doesn’t have an ARGB connector. This means the motherboard’s RGB sync software can’t work with certain devices. MSI Disabled Active Sync on boards without ARGB after initially launching with it. This is not a big deal to most people outside RGB hypebeasts, but if you want that Razer sync poo poo where your computer changes colors in reaction to poo poo happening in game, it’s necessary for getting your RAM lights and certain other accessories to play along. A B450 Pro Carbon MAX has already been announced by MSI, but it’s appearance in stores has been delayed by COVID19. B550 boards are supposed to appear sometime along with the 4000 CPUs, they likely include PCIE 4.0 so if you’re not buying the parts this month I’d wait for that. Craptacular! fucked around with this message at 21:36 on May 6, 2020 |
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May 6, 2020 21:32
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B550 is confirmed to offer PCIe 4.0. The announcement citing a June 16 release date only came out two weeks ago so I don't expect there to be a significant delay. At least we should get some announcements or "leaks" closer to the B550 launch date, maybe they'll make some cool new boards (although B450 will remain a valid choice for budget and general purpose builds IMO, Joe User usually doesn't need PCIe 4.0 or more than 2 storage devices).
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May 6, 2020 21:45
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Its weird that AMD is going to launch the 3100/3300X tomorrow and B550 a month later but I guess nothing makes sense and everything is made up so who cares.
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May 6, 2020 22:03
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I wonder if MSI will be able to squeeze Zen 3 support onto the non-Max Tomahawk board.
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May 7, 2020 03:36
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Part of me wants to say "Why don't they just have multiple BIOS images? Maybe one for Zen1 and Zen+, and one for Zen2 and Zen3? Or maybe just one for each generation?" And then I almost immediately realize this would just lead to a RMA cascade as 85% of people manage to flash the wrong BIOS. Every time I have to deal with BIOS flashing, I miss working at A Very Large Tech Company, where every machine had custom firmware (with really amazing early boot output for diagnostics), that slotted into what was basically a tiny LGA socket, and I had access to an EEPROM writer.
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May 7, 2020 04:45
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OhFunny posted:I wonder if MSI will be able to squeeze Zen 3 support onto the non-Max Tomahawk board. if I'm not mistaken the compromise for non-MAX boards getting Zen 2 was that support for the Bristol Ridge* CPUs had to be dropped and the BIOS interface was cut down to be more basic, such as lacking mouse support. I think it's reasonable to expect that they'd be able to squeeze in Zen 3. * Piledriver-architecture APUs but with DDR4 compatibility
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May 7, 2020 04:57
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Sorry if this is the wrong place for this, but I had a quick question about my new Ryzen CPU/Motherboard combo. I want to update the chipset drivers, but apparently there are drivers from MSI and drivers from AMD. Most of my Googling says "Use the AMD drivers because they're newer." But right now the MSI drivers are newer (not by much, but still). Which should I use?
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May 7, 2020 05:11
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Travic posted:Sorry if this is the wrong place for this, but I had a quick question about my new Ryzen CPU/Motherboard combo. Use the AMD drivers always. (The MSI drivers have a newer date because it's the date MSI posted them on their website, not the date of driver release. In this case they're the same drivers so you could use either one. But in general it's better to just get drivers etc directly from whoever makes the thing. Bookmark AMD's chipset driver page and MSI's bios page.)
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May 7, 2020 05:17
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Thanks. Installed the new drivers, but it didn't fix my problem. I'll post in the tech support forum, but the CPU is still pegged at ~110% max frequency at all times. Even when the CPU is idling at 1-2% usage on Ryzen Balanced. Very strange.
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May 7, 2020 05:55
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OhFunny posted:I wonder if MSI will be able to squeeze Zen 3 support onto the non-Max Tomahawk board. They almost certainly will. Worst-case scenario will force them to drop support for 1st Gen Ryzen in order to do so.
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May 7, 2020 06:08
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Travic posted:Thanks. Installed the new drivers, but it didn't fix my problem. I'll post in the tech support forum, but the CPU is still pegged at ~110% max frequency at all times. Even when the CPU is idling at 1-2% usage on Ryzen Balanced. Very strange. Try installing the 1usmus power plan. This seemed to iron out any kinks with my 3700x.
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May 7, 2020 06:45
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Has anyone seen any decent performance comparisons between the newer Epycs and Xeons that focus on low latency applications (bonus points if the 7F72 is included)? My searches so far haven't really turned up a lot, and any comparisons I have found tend to focus more on things that benefit from overall thread count rather than individual core speed and memory access times. My worry is Epyc's higher RAM latency means it will underperform on workloads where the goal is for a single-threaded process to accept smallish messages, do a bit of processing, and fire off some output as quickly as possible.
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May 7, 2020 14:23
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ConanTheLibrarian posted:Has anyone seen any decent performance comparisons between the newer Epycs and Xeons that focus on low latency applications (bonus points if the 7F72 is included)? My searches so far haven't really turned up a lot, and any comparisons I have found tend to focus more on things that benefit from overall thread count rather than individual core speed and memory access times. Generally, most of that difference is made up by the massive L3 caches AMD is throwing at the problem. The F processors aren't going to have any advantage here, memory latency is defined by the IF bus frequency and all the offerings support ddr4-3200 which is what you should be putting in these systems. It's pretty much impossible to know how the workload you are describing will perform until you're actually running it on the hardware. We did our proof of concept testing on AWS rental Zen1 Eypc systems to make sure things performed on-par with Xeons before we pulled the trigger and ordered from Dell.
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May 7, 2020 14:37
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Zen3 will not run on pre-500 series motherboards Haha, drat, after they did the thing with A320 last time around I figured 300 series boards were not long for the world but they went ahead and killed the 400 series boards too. If you didn’t want the chipset fan then gently caress you, no Zen3 for you!
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May 7, 2020 14:44
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Really wish they would have announced that like a month and a half ago before before I built a new system around a 470 board.
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May 7, 2020 14:46
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They might not bother anyway but given that the reason provided is ROM size limitations, boards with an uncommonly large EEPROM might still be able to do it. A lot of boards use 128Mb/16MB but the X470 Taichi uses a 256Mb chip, to give an example.
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May 7, 2020 14:53
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I was literally about to pull the trigger on an $80 3200g + $80 ASRock B450m Pro4 combo with the intent of throwing in something like an rx580 in the future and then maybe eventually upgrading the cpu to something with 6-8 cores down the line. I’m not sure what to do now. I figure I could still get a lot of longevity and value-for-dollar upgrading to a 3000 series (or hell, even something like a 2600/1600AF) but I also don’t want to feel like I’m limiting my upgrade path from the outset. Like sure, an $80 mobo isn’t the worst thing in the world to have to replace but I don’t like feeling like I’m needlessly generating more waste or contributing to disposable tech culture somehow by saving some cash in the near-term on something I might have to rip out later.
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May 7, 2020 14:59
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Paul MaudDib posted:Zen3 will not run on pre-500 series motherboards Yeah, they're going to need to go back on that, fast, because otherwise nobody is going to trust AMD's "upgrade paths" in future. If they go back on 400 series, then it would make no sense to kill 300 series off either - X370 and X470 are identical, after all. vv Well, 3, Zen, Zen+ and Zen 2, but yeah, not good HalloKitty fucked around with this message at 15:25 on May 7, 2020 |
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May 7, 2020 14:59
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Well that's loving dumb. Guess we finally got that AM4 compatibility asterisk we were all kind of worried would come up at some point. Not even providing two gens of compatibility is pretty weak. If this is the last AM4 CPU, they're basically asking people to buy a 500 motherboard just to use Zen 3. Dramicus posted:Keep in mind, this is just a preliminary announcement. There are 3000 series running on x370 and b350 right now. I imagine it will be up to board partners to offer support or not. This is just what AMD requires. I dunno, they ended up just shutting off PCI 4 support outright on a whole gen of motherboards. Segmented support - or AMD's handling of it - seems murky. ufarn fucked around with this message at 15:05 on May 7, 2020 |
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May 7, 2020 14:59
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Keep in mind, this is just a preliminary announcement. There are 3000 series running on x370 and b350 right now. I imagine it will be up to board partners to offer support or not. This is just what AMD requires.
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May 7, 2020 14:59
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HalloKitty posted:Yeah, they're going to need to go back on that, fast, because otherwise nobody is going to trust AMD's "upgrade paths" in future. AMD only did that because they had nothing else going for them. They can go by Intel's playbook now that they have the upper hand. I will say at least Intel made a new socket each time to sell the illusion that it was somehow impossible to support more than 2 generations. AMD's microcode size excuse is transparently bullshit.
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May 7, 2020 15:02
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Guess we know what the 3100/3300X are for - they're the only cheap CPUs officially supported on the B550 boards. That would suck...
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May 7, 2020 15:03
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