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NikkolasKing posted:The tabletop players seem to refer to this as "superhero with fangs." Some are okay with it, others deride it. I like both approaches. I dunno, If they can still dance it can't be all that bad.
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May 8, 2020 06:09
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I don't think I would ever get over losing access to genuine enjoyment of food, drink and all the little rituals built around their consumption. Sure, maybe turning into vampire makes blood as desirable as a good meal is now, but I think I'd still be like "I traded maybe 50 years worth of chances to have pad thai and weihenstephaner for an eternity of this poo poo?" while drinking a bummer named Delores who was only susceptible to following me to my car because her dad was a real specific kind of jerk. No amount of super powers would really offset that.
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May 8, 2020 06:44
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Nephthys posted:If I'm playing a game where I can punch through walls, dodge bullets or turn invisible it's gonna be hard for me to buy that this is a bad thing for my character that torments them daily. So Bloodlines never really gave the feeling but in WoD vampires basically have a gigantic urge that's always there telling them to basically degenerate into mindless feeding machines. All the talks of Humanity (or Paths, which likely won't be in Bloodlines 2) are just coping devices to fight off the Beast. On top of which, you also have the entirety of vampire society that's not gonna really look kindly on a goody-two-shoes unless you're extremely powerful in some way or another (which could just be the ability to lay low). Not only that, even if you are very powerful, if you're out trying to play nighttime Superman and it gets too much attention you're gonna get visits from a) the Second Inquisition or b) an even more powerful vampire because you going around showing all your cool powers is gonna bring in visits from the Second Inquisition. Basically the entire angsty stuff is baked into the lore and WoD because the point is that it does suck to be a vampire (pun not intended). And while Bloodlines 1 I think did very good at showing the world and a lot of it's strangeness, it definitely missed the mark with that aspect of storytelling imo. And I don't see the second really rectifying it-from the previews it looks like slightly more horrific Infamous: Second Son (which was also set in Seattle fwiw) with possibly more janky combat. You have the same nobody protagonist, morality struggle, different power choices you have to make, etc. As an aside if you did enjoy Bloodlines 1 and just want cool superpower crazy adventures minus angst, I do recommend the Infamous games.
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May 8, 2020 07:09
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alansmithee posted:So Bloodlines never really gave the feeling but in WoD vampires basically have a gigantic urge that's always there telling them to basically degenerate into mindless feeding machines. All the talks of Humanity (or Paths, which likely won't be in Bloodlines 2) are just coping devices to fight off the Beast. On top of which, you also have the entirety of vampire society that's not gonna really look kindly on a goody-two-shoes unless you're extremely powerful in some way or another (which could just be the ability to lay low). Not only that, even if you are very powerful, if you're out trying to play nighttime Superman and it gets too much attention you're gonna get visits from a) the Second Inquisition or b) an even more powerful vampire because you going around showing all your cool powers is gonna bring in visits from the Second Inquisition. The main villain is you from the future trying to make you into a better vampire who does what must be done. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0EBQ56QjpYw The original InFamous is one of my favorite games ever. It's tragically forgotten about these days, left to rot on the PS3.
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May 8, 2020 08:02
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NikkolasKing posted:This is nothing special to Kindred, though. Every being in WoD has a Hell all on their own. That is why I like some of the nWod games so much. In at least Geist, Changeling and Hunter the characters are human enough that they can, momentarily, pretend they aren't anything else. Eat icecream during a nice sunny day? Sure. Get drunk with friends? Sure. Steal a few moments of respite before the crazy train revs up again? Sure. And as for this game I really hope they make it possible to complete the game without combat.
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May 8, 2020 08:30
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One day we'll get a Wraith: the Oblivion videogame.
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May 8, 2020 08:46
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I wouldn´t mind a tactical RPG set in the Hunter line.
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May 8, 2020 09:04
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We're also waiting for that Paradox Grand Strategy game set in the Dark Ages era of the WoD.
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May 8, 2020 09:10
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Minecraft, but you’re Caine
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May 8, 2020 09:23
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It's a bit disappointing that the faces look kind of awkward in the new trailer, since this was one area where Bloodlines 1 was quite impressive for it's time. I remember that I thought the facial animations looked even better than in Half-Life 2, which was the state of the art back then. Maybe they should have gone for a more cartoony aesthetic in Bloodlines 2, because making realistic looking faces is something that's still quite hard, even with the current technology. Still, it doesn't look too ugly and the creepy vibe they give off is very appropiorate for a Vampire game, even if it's probably not entirely intentional.
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May 8, 2020 09:28
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Sylphosaurus posted:I wouldn´t mind a tactical RPG set in the Hunter line. Yeah, something like Silent Storm with destructible enviroment would be ace.
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May 8, 2020 09:58
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alansmithee posted:So Bloodlines never really gave the feeling but in WoD vampires basically have a gigantic urge that's always there telling them to basically degenerate into mindless feeding machines. All the talks of Humanity (or Paths, which likely won't be in Bloodlines 2) are just coping devices to fight off the Beast. On top of which, you also have the entirety of vampire society that's not gonna really look kindly on a goody-two-shoes unless you're extremely powerful in some way or another (which could just be the ability to lay low). Not only that, even if you are very powerful, if you're out trying to play nighttime Superman and it gets too much attention you're gonna get visits from a) the Second Inquisition or b) an even more powerful vampire because you going around showing all your cool powers is gonna bring in visits from the Second Inquisition. This is all very good and also true, even if I stress you do want to play the game and not worry about the impact drinking blood has or whatever go with God. The other point to touch on is your actions have consequences and you don't know where the ripples of any stone you throw will hit. If you start hitting organized crime, let's say, well, there's almost certainly an older vampire who while they do not control it necessarily certainly use it as a source of income and power and will be irritated at some neonates sticking their noses in and might decide to save the Inquisition the trouble.
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May 8, 2020 12:47
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quote:vampires don't actually have to kill in WoD so there shouldn't really be anything to stop you from playing as someone generally trying to do good and succeeding at it So, you're slinking back to your haven, and you're HUNGRY. Not like 'man, I could go for a cheeseburger' hungry, but like 'I haven't eaten for weeks' hungry. And there you see them: a homeless person, shuffling along, mumbling to themselves. gently caress, you think, I'm just going to take a bit off the top. Just a pint or two. They'll be fine. I do it all the time, nobody ever gets hurt; they get a nice nap, they get the ecstasy of the Kiss, they wake up a bit pale, whatever. I'll come back later and leave the guy a burger and fries, even. And you're so drat hungry. Even though he's clearly not in the best of health, you can see his veins pulsing. You can smell the blood, even from twenty feet away. Your fangs involuntary lengthen. You can feel the itching at the back of your brain that presages a frenzy, and figure you'd better do it while you're still in control. So you jump him. You chow down. And hey, lets even say you maintain enough self-control to only take a little off the top. You make it back to your haven, clean yourself up, come back out later with a double-order of burg and fries. Even a bottle of hooch, because hey, what homeless guy doesn't like hooch? If nothing else, he can trade it. And what do you find? An ambulance. A few paramedics just standing around, shooting the poo poo, talking about the guy being malnourished, sick, and apparently anemic. A body bag off to the side. Two cops roll up, literally glance around the alleyway for five seconds, declare nothing suspicious, and trade jokes with the EMTs about 'NHI.' They all laugh, the body gets carted off, and you're left standing there, burgers in hand, realizing that you just killed a man. You try to remember what NHI means, then it hits you: 'no humans involved.' These people didn't even consider that guy human, just street trash, an annoying roadblock in their nights, now they're going to have to scrub the stench out of their clothes. But you know. He was a person, with a history, with thoughts, with feelings, and now he's dead. He's dead because you, fundamentally, are a blood-sucking monster. He'd still be alive if you hadn't taken his blood. His god-damned BLOOD. You had to poke a hole in the man, and then you lapped up his very life's essence like a loving dog. And tomorrow, you're going to wake up, and you're going to have burned off some of his blood just with your parasitic loving existence. You just traded, what, months? Years? of his life, for literally one more night of yours. As you stand there, reeling from this realization, you hear a sound behind you. You turn around, and melting out of the shadows is a local Nossie you remember seeing around, but don't know. My god, he is ugly as gently caress, and he has the weirdest smile on his face, as he holds out a cell phone playing a video of you clearly chowing down on that poor unfortunate soul. "Hey, mate," he says. "Did a little hunting here, eh? Well, I can't blame you. Guy's gotta eat, right? Still, that guy's dead, and I'm sure the cops would love to know who. Well, we both know they don't loving care about that homeless poo poo. But they love the publicity of hauling in a murderer. Ah ah, I know what you're thinking already. I'm (mocking accent) vi-o-late-ing the mas-quer-rade(/mocking accent) right? Wouldn't the Prince just love to know? Well, you took a wrong turn, son, and you hunted on our patch. This is our domain, and I don't recall you receiving feeding rights. So sure, lets go talk to the Prince, lick. No? I thought not. Now, lets describe what you're going to do for me in exchange for this video going away. We'll start with that rear end in a top hat over on 5th who keeps trying to organize her neighbours into some sort of neighbourhood watch bullshit. She's going to have an accident, isn't she?" The honorable thing, you think, would be to turn yourself in. Sure, you'll be facing the sun probably the very next morning on your way to arraignment. If you were allowed to get that far, you'd die terribly, final death, and you'd expose the Masquerade. Which means they'll be watching you. If you try to turn yourself in, you'll be taken, and at best you can hope to be left staked out for the sun, just somewhere with no prying eyes. At worst? You can't even conceive. Maybe you can talk to this woman. You don't need to kill her, right? Maybe just scare her. Maybe just scare her. Maybe rough her up a bit. Yeah, just a bit. I'm sure this will be fine. (I do kind of like the 5e mechanic of hunger dice or whatever the gently caress they're called.) TheCenturion fucked around with this message at 14:33 on May 8, 2020 |
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May 8, 2020 14:30
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Yeah, in Bloodlines it's almost impossible to go into a feeding frenzy with high Humanity. In the tabletop certain situations guarantee it--like barely escaping from a fight or a burning building.NikkolasKing posted:The tabletop players seem to refer to this as "superhero with fangs." Some are okay with it, others deride it. I like both approaches. "You can avoid killing" is assuming a lot. The video game makes a lot of allowances because you don't want to spend half your time hunting. Feeding victims don't automatically go into a trance and forget what happened, and mind control Disciplines aren't a reliable way to feed at lower levels. Biting someone right there on the dance floor is a breach of the Masquerade. Plenty of tabletop campaigns also handwave feeding most of the time, for the same reasons. There's a feeding roll mechanic right there in the rulebook! But always abstracting feeding to making a roll and saying "I attack a bum in an alley" or "I seduce someone in a club" is something the devs singled out for criticism. If you look at the mathematics of feeding, it's easy to reach the conclusion that because you need 1 Blood Point per day, you can safely feed from two or three people a week, and not kill anybody. But that assumes that you never spend Blood. It also assumes that assaulting random victims will never go south. How often can you attack people in alleyways without anyone putting up much of a fight or screaming for help? How many times can you take someone home from the same handful of nightclubs before word gets around about the creep? Most Kindred get around this by having a Herd of mortals that they've manipulated into being safe sources of blood. (A few get around it by having a farm, but when you look at how weak animal blood is compared to humans, it's not an option for most Kindred.) That means that you now have a little fiefdom that you have to protect, and can't live like the protagonist of an open world sandbox game, because your existence revolves around a steady supply of blood. quote:"For too long I've been parched of thirst and unable to quench it. Too long I've been starving to death and haven't died. I feel nothing. Not the wind on my face nor the spray of the sea. Nor the warmth of a woman's flesh." Edit: This is why the "emergent gameplay" of Vampire led it down the road of a crime thriller rather than "personal horror." Consider the guys on the Sopranos: they've wormed their way into big business, small businesses, sports, church functions, and so on, but they're never really a part of these things because their involvement always boils down to an opportunity for grift. They're there to extract resources. It's hard to be human when your material interest is that of a parasite. Halloween Jack fucked around with this message at 16:26 on May 8, 2020 |
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May 8, 2020 16:07
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Hunger is your omnipresent curse. The hunger system and hunger dice mechanic is great because it enforces the beast being a constant part of your every moment of existence Huge improvement over blood being little more than mana like in old editions
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May 8, 2020 16:54
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Halloween Jack posted:Yeah, in Bloodlines it's almost impossible to go into a feeding frenzy with high Humanity. In the tabletop certain situations guarantee it--like barely escaping from a fight or a burning building. Isn't the Kiss an amazingly pleasurable and intoxicating experience for the victim unless it's a Giovanni doing it? It might not be the magic trance state in Bloodlines but it's hardly like they will be fighting you tooth and nail. So you neither have to kill your victim nor does the process of feeding actually hurt.The canon is rife with mortals all too happy to give up their blood for vampires because the experience is so awesome. NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 17:05 on May 8, 2020 |
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May 8, 2020 17:02
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If you're at a high hunger (4/5) you'll probably need a hunger frenzy test to not gorge and immediately send your victim into critical state. (Or you take gobs of willpower damage resisting the frenzy) Or if you get a messy crit the beast might take over and you rip your victims throat
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May 8, 2020 17:06
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Jack tells you right at the start of bloodlines, bloods your new fuckin heroin man. It's a shame that theres no mechanics to reinforce that in bloodlines - but poo poo we were lucky that we got that game at all considering the nightmare the development supposedly was. I'm hype for the new game - not too worried about facial animations, I realised my cut off point for bad faces was horizon zero dawn and this doesn't look that bad.
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May 8, 2020 17:08
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NikkolasKing posted:Isn't the Kiss an amazingly pleasurable and intoxicating experience for the victim unless it's a Giovanni doing it?
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May 8, 2020 17:18
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I'm not expert but the concept of "the kiss" seems to undercut the horror of feeding on someone. Yeah, there's the beast always pushing the vampire to go ape, but so would a victim who is conscious, aware, and fighting back against being fed on. You want horror? Make it so vampire can't just leave their victims in a feeling of ecstasy with no marks afterward. If vampire society doesn't have the ability to cleanly and discreetly feed, I would imagine things would be a lot more horrific for any human prey that gets caught since it would be in a vampires interest to make sure they can't relay what happened to them. It might lead to vampires coming up with ways to mask their activities, maybe they stab or shoot the victim and feed from that, or disguise their attacks as that being from an animal, which would mean mutilating the victim beyond just feeding, which seems a lot more evil and monstrous than making their wounds disappear with a kiss.
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May 8, 2020 17:21
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Upmarket Mango posted:I'm not expert but the concept of "the kiss" seems to undercut the horror of feeding on someone. Yeah, there's the beast always pushing the vampire to go ape, but so would a victim who is conscious, aware, and fighting back against being fed on. You want horror? Make it so vampire can't just leave their victims in a feeling of ecstasy with no marks afterward. If vampire society doesn't have the ability to cleanly and discreetly feed, I would imagine things would be a lot more horrific for any human prey that gets caught since it would be in a vampires interest to make sure they can't relay what happened to them. This is literally the old Giovanni clan weakness.
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May 8, 2020 17:25
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idk man a tick that you don't notice is a lot scarier than one that announces itself immediately
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May 8, 2020 17:26
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Avasculous posted:The release version of the game had a crash to desktop in a branch of the main story that was impassible without cheating. I remember the crash to desktop. I think you had to run from a cave-in to reach a boat. It would always crash just as you got to the boat. I had the same combat problem at the end too. Thankfully I had a bunch of unspent EXP saved up to pump into Celerity. After that the final area was a cakewalk.
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May 8, 2020 17:29
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The one and only time I played unpatched VtMB, the game soft locked almost immediately after talking to Jack the first time in the tutorial. The door to go into the garage never unlocked.
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May 8, 2020 17:32
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There are all kinds of horror, some subtle and some not. The problem is subtle horror can be easy to overlook. For a Bloodlines example, let's take the case of Heather. To many people I've talked to, she's just your sweet girlfriend. So devoted and cute and loving. I totally missed her on my first run so I went just by online accounts. Then somebody came along and said actually Heather is your addict slave and keeping her around is horribly hosed up and abusive. Having gotten her on my last run, the latter interpretation is clearly correct. Forget that Heather will be killed by the Sabbat or something if you keep her around, she clearly spirals down a path of insanity very quickly. However altruistic your initial motives for saving h er might have been and how cool the idea seemed at first, after a few "events" with her like how she kidnapped a guy and brought him to you to be dinner, it's pretty apparent how deranged the whole relation hips to the core. Heather almost immediately abandons her own life - her family, her education - all for you. Would it be more hosed up if Heather screamed and struggled every time you fed on her? Yeah, but probably not in a good way. Presumably less people would confuse the relationship for anything good but it would also just become downright uncomfortable. The Kiss and the process of making somebody a Ghoul is a truly horrifying process because before you know it you probably would be begging "just take a finger or a toe, I don't need them. All I need is your blood and the feel of your fangs in me."
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May 8, 2020 18:06
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Upmarket Mango posted:I'm not expert but the concept of "the kiss" seems to undercut the horror of feeding on someone. Yeah, there's the beast always pushing the vampire to go ape, but so would a victim who is conscious, aware, and fighting back against being fed on. You want horror? Make it so vampire can't just leave their victims in a feeling of ecstasy with no marks afterward. If vampire society doesn't have the ability to cleanly and discreetly feed, I would imagine things would be a lot more horrific for any human prey that gets caught since it would be in a vampires interest to make sure they can't relay what happened to them. It might lead to vampires coming up with ways to mask their activities, maybe they stab or shoot the victim and feed from that, or disguise their attacks as that being from an animal, which would mean mutilating the victim beyond just feeding, which seems a lot more evil and monstrous than making their wounds disappear with a kiss. I dunno, mate. Not only are you physically violating somebody, possibly against their will, you're also mystically forcing them to enjoy the experience. Alternatively, if they're a blood doll and totally into it, you're addicting them to the artificial pleasure, and you're as bad as any other drug pusher. There's a lot of mechanical bonus built into RPGs (drink blood = improve your combat abilities) and but a lot of the minuses aren't mechanical, but are on the fluff side (remember to not just treat 'blood' as a slightly inconvenient mana pool, and everybody just rolls hunting dice and glosses over the inhuman brutality that is stalking, abducting, exsanguinating, and abandoning one or more humans.) Similarly, And the moment you start ignoring those minuses, you get superheroes with fangs. Bloodlines the game has the issue where it turns feeding into a fun minigame. Get a person way from the line-of-sight of other models! Click the button! Click it again before this meter runs down! And sure, you can feed from animals, the same way you, as a human, can live off of a diet of bread, water, and a multivitamin each day. Are you willing to do that? Hell, if you're like most people, you'd hate the idea of feeding from a dog way more than feeding from a human. TheCenturion fucked around with this message at 18:46 on May 8, 2020 |
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May 8, 2020 18:19
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TheCenturion posted:I dunno, mate. Not only are you physically violating somebody, possibly against their will, you're also mystically forcing them to enjoy the experience. Alternatively, if they're a blood doll and totally into it, you're addicting them to the artificial pleasure, and you're as bad as any other drug pusher. Thats a fair point I didn't consider.
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May 8, 2020 18:21
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Upmarket Mango posted:I'm not expert but the concept of "the kiss" seems to undercut the horror of feeding on someone. Yeah, there's the beast always pushing the vampire to go ape, but so would a victim who is conscious, aware, and fighting back against being fed on. You want horror? Make it so vampire can't just leave their victims in a feeling of ecstasy with no marks afterward. If vampire society doesn't have the ability to cleanly and discreetly feed, I would imagine things would be a lot more horrific for any human prey that gets caught since it would be in a vampires interest to make sure they can't relay what happened to them. It might lead to vampires coming up with ways to mask their activities, maybe they stab or shoot the victim and feed from that, or disguise their attacks as that being from an animal, which would mean mutilating the victim beyond just feeding, which seems a lot more evil and monstrous than making their wounds disappear with a kiss. I think the horror is still there, it's just a different type of horror. The kiss is basically a biological date rape drug. Even if a vampire has found someone willing to be fed on, they basically made that person into a heroin addict, actively courting danger for a high. Edit: beaten on this point On the practical side for Vampire as a game, it makes vampire society a lot more plausible if they don't have to kill or otherwise overtly harm mortals on a nightly basis as you suggested.
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May 8, 2020 18:26
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Angry Lobster posted:This is literally the old Giovanni clan weakness.
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May 8, 2020 18:46
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Halloween Jack posted:And the Nagaraja, of course, have to just straight up eat people. This is most of the reason Pisha is so weird in the first game, almost as weird as Andrei. She can't even pretend she's alive anymore - she's literally an obligate cannibal.
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May 8, 2020 18:55
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I hope this ends up fun. I am not exactly "hopeful" hopeful, but we can wait and see!
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May 8, 2020 19:02
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I'm a Werewolf booster because I experienced it as superheroes with fangs AND claws, which is objectively one "claws" better than superheroes with fangs.
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May 8, 2020 19:15
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NikkolasKing posted:There are all kinds of horror, some subtle and some not. The problem is subtle horror can be easy to overlook. As an aside on the whole feeding thing, it's a mistake to think that we have to acknowledge, focus on, or be really on-the-nose with vampires as a metaphor for various kinds of abuse. I'm a good little Marxist so I'm all about acknowledging that everything is political, but it's not just cishet white bros who want to set social issues aside when we play games about monsters. Especially if "owning up to" these issues means graphic, potentially triggering portrayals of abuse. A relevant quote from Olivia Hill and Filamena Young, two former WoD developers, from their excellent game #iHunt: quote:There’s a pitfall people fall into when talking about monsters. Stop me if you’ve heard this one. “Vampires are a metaphor for...” Yeah that one. Vampires are a metaphor for sexual assault, antisemitism, disease, promiscuity, fear of foreigners, the unwillingness of people to change, queer identity issues, and whatever in the gently caress you want them to be a metaphor for. Monsters are tools, and it’s your choice as a creator how you use them. The moment we start saying, “X monster is a metaphor for Y social issue,” we’re locking out a lot of possibilities and opening a lot of doors for gross poo poo.
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May 8, 2020 19:16
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Halloween Jack posted:And the Nagaraja, of course, have to just straight up eat people. I always found the potential dialogue options of "you eat meat? Disgusting!" hilariously hypocritical. It's all the same thing, blood or the flesh.
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May 8, 2020 19:16
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True, but you could also read that as "You mean you still chew up food and swallow it? Ew!" Real food is nauseating to vampires; even the ones who can eat it have to chuck it all back up later.
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May 8, 2020 19:17
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Josef bugman posted:I hope this ends up fun. I am not exactly "hopeful" hopeful, but we can wait and see! I'd expect it to be more streamlined than Bloodlines 1 with less abilities to play with overall. It's also looking to be more open-ended than the first game's linear experience, which could be the worst change depending on how you like your Sandboxes. There may also be a lot less stereotypes as the development team is a lot more forward thinking (Much like how CD Projekt is approaching sexuality in Cyberpunk 2077.) I'm a bit more positive on this one being good on release since the developers pushed the date back and have been pretty open about design progress.
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May 8, 2020 19:49
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SuperKlaus posted:I'm a Werewolf booster because I experienced it as superheroes with fangs AND claws, which is objectively one "claws" better than superheroes with fangs. I experienced Werewolf as a globe trotting Indiana Jones style adventure with our pack racing around the world trying to beat a Black Spiral Dancer and her Tzimisce cohort and his army of ghouls to the artifacts needed to open Ayer's Rock and free the last living Bunyip from a magical hibernation. To say that elements of personal horror were downplayed is putting it mildly. 
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May 8, 2020 20:09
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jng2058 posted:I experienced Werewolf as a globe trotting Indiana Jones style adventure with our pack racing around the world trying to beat a Black Spiral Dancer and her Tzimisce cohort and his army of ghouls to the artifacts needed to open Ayer's Rock and free the last living Bunyip from a magical hibernation. This mirrors my own experience pretty well.
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May 8, 2020 20:11
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On the downsides of being a vampire the main two downsides are: You are going to hell for sure and hell is real, and sunlight will kill you instantly. The loss of your soul may not sound so bad if you don't believe in souls but if vampires are real then souls are real so hell is real too. That's why I wouldn't want to be a vampire even if you survive 500 years and become powerful eventually you'll die somehow and then spend eternity in hell... not worth it. All media I've seen though makes vampires out to be a really great thing to be with no downsides besides sunlight.
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May 8, 2020 20:29
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DropsySufferer posted:On the downsides of being a vampire the main two downsides are: You are going to hell for sure and hell is real, and sunlight will kill you instantly. The loss of your soul may not sound so bad if you don't believe in souls but if vampires are real then souls are real so hell is real too. That's why I wouldn't want to be a vampire even if you survive 500 years and become powerful eventually you'll die somehow and then spend eternity in hell... not worth it. As long as we aid the Wyrm (which is the most natural thing in the world for a vampire) there won't be a Hell to go to. There will be glorious, wondrous Nothing.
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May 8, 2020 20:33
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