|
MacheteZombie posted:I believe Billy n Stu staged Maureens death to look like rape. However Maureen was raped as a young adult by several men and gave birth to Roman (killer in 3) as a result. Timeless Appeal fucked around with this message at 19:41 on May 12, 2020 |
#
?
May 12, 2020 18:37
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 11, 2024 23:55 |
|
|
Yeah, a huge part of Billy's villainy is that so much of the movie he is trying to finally have sex with Sidney and also convince her he isn't a killer, while he's planning on killing her and her father the whole time. It's like he's trying to get it in before he takes her out, and it's (purposefully) sleazy of him.
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2020 19:12
|
|
|
Evil Eight, Western Division! Mama Voorhees' Baby Boy vs an assemblage of public-domain baddies! The foundations of all horror vs the most popular slasher of all time! Who ya sending on to the Final-Girl Four? In Defense of Friday the 13th: No Volunteers In Defense of Universal Monsters: Burkion (...twice!)  Repeatedly we've seen movies with stone-cold classic entries followed by tons of DTV garbage get blown out. Now we find out what happens when two movies that are straight-up worldshaking entries all the way through go head-to-head! In Defense of Night of the Living Dead: No Volunteers In Defense of Alien: Timeless Appeal Vote here! Vote Now! Ballot Boxes will be OPEN UNTIL MAY 19th! (  for my  peeps)
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2020 19:43
|
|
|
I do not like the decisions I am being forced to make here.
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2020 19:47
|
|
|
Alien vs. NotLD is the first matchup where I really don't know which way I lean. I hope I don't have to watch all the bad sequels as a tie breaker.
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2020 19:48
|
|
|
The main reason I bring it up is that it's kind of a double standard to not like This Killer because they're Bad and do like this Killer when they're also The Bad. They're all bad, and we love them anyways. Trying to bring up Freddy's a pedo as a detractment against the series is asinine because that doesn't mean that it's a negative. It can be done BADLY, see the remake, but generally Freddy the Child Predator was done well for the rest of it, and he always had rapist overtones. It's not why you like him, but it's part of what informs him as a villain and makes him unique.
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2020 19:48
|
|
|
Freddy being a pedophile makes him scarier to me. I watch horror movies to be scared. Kids get to be scared that the burned boogeyman will use their nightmares against them before cutting them to ribbons, parents get to be scared that a pedophile it going to tear their children to shreds in their sleep and there's nothing they can do about it. It's a natural fear and it's why Freddy is a good scary villain. I'm fine with someone politely disagreeing with that notion because of there own taste, but, uh, the point of horror is to be scary and confront the disturbing horrors of existence and the atrocities humanity inflicts upon itself. It's something like Leon The Professional, where the relationship between a man and a 12 year old girl who's romantically interested in him is used as a comedic dynamic is where things get obviously weird. But that also has to do with costuming, the perspective of the camera and director, etc. There's a difference. I'm fine with the monster also being a pedophile. It never shows it, no child actors have to act it out; it's fine.
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2020 19:55
|
|
|
God this round is a nightmare
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2020 20:02
|
|
|
I voted with my heart.
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2020 20:13
|
|
|
That Universal Monsters vs. Friday the 13th matchup is brutal for me because it's such a direct fight between my head and my heart. Friday the 13th is one of those series that kept me up at night as a kid, and was just a constant fixture on cable t.v. growing up. It's a really big part of my personal horror history. Universal on the other hand, I didn't really sit down and watch any of those until college. I still love them and can obviously recognize their greatness, and I've supported them the whole way up to this point but this is really a tough one. The other matchup is easy, I'm an Alien guy and always have been. I think that one might end up being very close though, for good reason.
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2020 20:17
|
|
|
The first choice is a no brainer and I say this as someone who adores Friday. Alien/Romero is tough. I think I'm going to go with Romero. While Land is iffy and the other poo poo is straight up bad, Night/Dawn/Day are a perfect little trilogy and a sort of miracle of independent filmmaking. I don't hate Alien 3, but it does actively taint the ending of one of my favorite movies, and just fails to live up to the promise of the first two films. The rest is a mixed bag. But Romero's original three films just feel complete whereas Alien is always going to feel like a broken promise. Timeless Appeal fucked around with this message at 20:24 on May 12, 2020 |
|
#
?
May 12, 2020 20:20
|
|
|
Night of the Living Dead and Alien are both among the greatest films ever made. But I'd say Night, even moreso, is one of those films like Citizen Kane or Breathless (or...um...The Birth of a Nation) that once it came out it singlehandedly changed the entire face of cinema as we know it. The legacies of both franchises are far reaching and astounding and resonate far beyond horror film, but Night truly laid new ground for the medium of film. It would never be the same again after that film, and it still packs a hell of a punch today with one of the bleakest, and still most true, endings of all time. When you factor in the sequels, you have the perfect trilogy of Dawn and Day, whereas with Alien though you get the masterful Aliens it's followed by an immediate drive downhill (though I do love Prometheus). Romero is a no brainer in this matchup.
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2020 20:25
|
|
|
Look, I love Night and Dawn and Day like everyone. But    
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2020 20:32
|
|
|
Timeless Appeal posted:The way that Billy gaslights Sidney into sex is definitely rape, and it's staged as incredibly uncomfortable. This is totally right and completely slipped by me since I was thinking solely about Maureen and the framing of Cotton.
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2020 20:33
|
|
|
I voted Romero, but may flip flop several times over the next few days. It comes down to Day vs Prometheus for me
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2020 20:37
|
|
|
After weeks of me arguing that the Universals are an unfair cheat I'm just gonna be a bog ole' hypocrite and vote for them and root for them hard to kill Jason once and for all. If I was gonna justify that I'd go back to the "Frankenstein Franchise is better on its own" defense. But I'm content being the bad guy. As long as Jason dies. Down with Jason. I have absolutely no idea who I'm voting for between Romero and Alien. And I've rewatched them all so I don't have something to watch to push me evaluation. I just have no idea. And just because I missed the Freddy conversation... I'm totally fine with people if Freddy being a pedophile is a step too far for them. That stuff is an individual thing and I respect it. And he was definitely always a pedophile. It was heavily implied through the original movies and I believe Carpenter's said he wanted to say it overtly but the studio wouldn't let him. As said that's a huge part of the nightmare Freddy is. He's one boogeyman to the kids and he's another embodiment of their parents fears which leads them to killing him. And if that's too distasteful for you I can respect that. But I absolutely disagree that you're supposed to be rooting for Freddy. I HATE that entire idea in horror and slashers and I'd never enjoy Nightmare if I thought that was how it worked. Sure, Freddy's funny sometimes but he's always a monster even when he's a cartoony one and there's always a protagonist who you're following try and stop him. I think that's one of the biggest differences between Jason and Freddy. Jason is almost always lacking a developed protagonist and there's just some kid who happens to be at the end of his killing spree. You're watching Jason because he's the show. But with Freddy you're following Nancy/Heather or whoever as they desperately try and find a way to survive and stop Freddy. I think everything about the difference between Freddy and Jason and why I love oen and hate the other is in that. Jason movies are about Jason and his victims are just supporting characters. Freddy's always got a co-star who is the hero of the story.
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2020 20:38
|
|
|
So I've got some thoughts but I'll share them soonSTAC Goat posted:and I believe Carpenter's said he wanted to say it overtly but the studio wouldn't let him. But this made me think of a universe where John Carpenter made a Nightmare on Elm Street movie and my God that would have been the best thing ever
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2020 20:42
|
|
|
MacheteZombie posted:This is totally right and completely slipped by me since I was thinking solely about Maureen and the framing of Cotton. "It's a fun game Sidney, see, we ask you a question and if you get it wrong you die. And you get it right? You die." Like poo poo man, that's some Get Out level nail on the head stuff. Scream is so good.
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2020 20:44
|
|
|
Burkion posted:So I've got some thoughts but I'll share them soon Ha. I didn't sleep much. Too much crazy tiger assholes binging.
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2020 20:47
|
|
|
Franchescanado posted:Look, I love Night and Dawn and Day like everyone.   
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2020 20:48
|
|
|
Timeless Appeal posted:The first choice is a no brainer and I say this as someone who adores Friday. I can understand this, but I feel like it also does short change the premise of this whole "franchise" discussion to just leave the weaker sequels out of discussion. And while I think that it's worthwhile to consider that Alien vs Night or Aliens vs Day are very close in terms of quality, I just think that, with Prometheus and Covenant, the Alien franchise has a deeper, better bench than the NotLD series does. (I think that Alien 3 is a better film than Dawn of the Dead, and I think Alien: Resurrection is about equal with Land. But Diary and Survival aren't very good at all.)
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2020 20:50
|
|
|
I voted with my gut but I'm not quite ready to explain my choices because I'm not entirely sure I made the right choices 
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2020 20:54
|
|
|
My actual thought process was "Aliens has Bill Paxton, but Dawn has Ken Foree...."
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2020 20:54
|
|
|
COOL CORN posted:I voted with my gut but I'm not quite ready to explain my choices because I'm not entirely sure I made the right choices If you voted for Jason, that's okay Jason will win the tournament don't you worry
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2020 20:58
|
|
|
Franchescanado posted:My actual thought process was "Aliens has Bill Paxton, but Dawn has Ken Foree...." I was thinking more iconic lines, but I'm willing to take the mere existence of Ken Foree as another reason to vote NotLD
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2020 21:00
|
|
|
Class3KillStorm posted:I can understand this, but I feel like it also does short change the premise of this whole "franchise" discussion to just leave the weaker sequels out of discussion. And while I think that it's worthwhile to consider that Alien vs Night or Aliens vs Day are very close in terms of quality, I just think that, with Prometheus and Covenant, the Alien franchise has a deeper, better bench than the NotLD series does. (I think that Alien 3 is a better film than Dawn of the Dead, and I think Alien: Resurrection is about equal with Land. But Diary and Survival aren't very good at all.) I think there's a balance. I agree that Alien's back bench is stronger than Romero's, but I also agree that Romero's core is stronger than Alien's. I don't know which of those is more important but I think both are fair parts of the analysis. It doesn't discount the worse entries. I agree that's unfair and against the idea of this tournament. If the bad sequels drag it down that should matter. But I'm not sure Night's bad sequels DO drag it down. They're so removed and so few people have seen them they feel like a separate thing. I can not however get behind Alien 3 being better than Dawn. Resurrection/Land? Yeah, ok.
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2020 21:00
|
|
|
Interesting thing about these match-ups: Friday the 13th series regularly shows sexuality and nudity. Universal Films were trapped behind codes, and many of them deal with repression. The Living Dead flicks, if I remember correctly, are largely sexless films, and the nudity is pretty naturalistic/medical, ie dead bodies. Whereas Alien is hypersexual and they all deal with the horrors of reproduction in some way. Not a lot of nudity though. Food for thought.
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2020 21:06
|
|
|
STAC Goat posted:I can not however get behind Alien 3 being better than Dawn. Resurrection/Land? Yeah, ok. I mean, to each their own - Alien 3's theatrical cut is obviously kind of a mess, but I think there's a lot more going on than Dawn's surface level observations. I also thought Dawn was pretty flabby and badly paced in the middle section on my last rewatch, so I think it ends up being a bigger anchor for its series than Alien 3 does for its side. But I also get why people think the opposite, and comparing something like Alien vs Night is going to be a contest of splitting hairs more than anything.
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2020 21:16
|
|
|
One thing to remember about the Romero films, is don't forget how they're filled with an overwhelming empathy that is at the heart of all the films. We remember the girl stabbing her mother to death, the helicopter decapitation, the blood and guts. But what about Bud rediscovering his humanity? What about this little moment in Dawn, so quiet and tragic and brief it gets lost in our memories yet forms the heart of the whole movie. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYKmM2OimaY&t=4667s In fairness, the Alien movies are a different beast. They're meant to be relenting, driven forward by pure adrenaline. But its the heart of Romero that wins for me every time.
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2020 21:17
|
|
|
Class3KillStorm posted:comparing something like Alien vs Night is going to be a contest of splitting hairs more than anything. Oh yeah, for sure. I'm basically having pissy fights with myself in my head over this. This is probably the closest, most balanced matchup so far in this whole tournament.
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2020 21:26
|
|
|
I remember hearing in one of the commentary tracks that the reason the makeup scene made the final cut in Dawn, is because Gaylen Ross composed an essay defending it, and then presented it to George. Does anyone know if that essay is available anywhere? e: Well I just tweeted at Gaylen asking if she can locate an essay she wrote over 40 years ago. I'm sure it'll go well. Debbie Does Dagon fucked around with this message at 21:46 on May 12, 2020 |
|
#
?
May 12, 2020 21:26
|
|
|
Class3KillStorm posted:I can understand this, but I feel like it also does short change the premise of this whole "franchise" discussion to just leave the weaker sequels out of discussion. And while I think that it's worthwhile to consider that Alien vs Night or Aliens vs Day are very close in terms of quality, I just think that, with Prometheus and Covenant, the Alien franchise has a deeper, better bench than the NotLD series does. (I think that Alien 3 is a better film than Dawn of the Dead, and I think Alien: Resurrection is about equal with Land. But Diary and Survival aren't very good at all.) I don't think the franchise discussion has to be limited to just a tally of good and bad. You get stuff like the Nightmare series that rides on just having a really good villain and performance despite dips in quality for example. And you get into issues with stuff where point for point, a series might not have as many good movies, but the good movies it has are downright superior. Friday the 13th is much more consistent If I'm being honest than Universal, but you can't compare in terms of heights. I think Cohesiveness matters when we talk about a franchise. One thing that is going to carry Evil Dead is that it's not just consistent, you can watch those three movies and it feels like a complete thing which is rare in a genre that tends to drag. And even for the series that do drag, I enjoy having Dream Warriors or Jason Lives feeling like the real endings to their respective series. Day of the Dead isn't just good, it's the end. They should have never made anymore. And the fact that Alien kept going with some stronger entries doesn't ignore that when you do long-form storytelling, there is that want for the story to end. Romero does it, and Alien just never does. I think that matters.
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2020 21:44
|
|
|
Put my vote in for Universal Monsters and NOTLD. Alien and Aliens are great horror movies, but do not have cultural impact that Romero's Zombie films did. There's not knock off thousands of "zombie" alien films. Romero gave birth to 1 million movies. Alien and Aliens just don't have the same impact. Same thing with Universal. Jason is just a knock off Frankenstein.
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2020 22:34
|
|
|
Bruh. Aliens defined what scifi action/horror would look like to this day. Halo, Gears, most sci fi completely lives under the shadow of Aliens.
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2020 22:36
|
|
|
Timeless Appeal posted:I mean I disagree on some of this. For a "What I would watch right now?" test, Land beats Resurrection and 3. It's messy, but has ambition that makes it at least admirable. I don't see how you can argue for Day of the Dead being the ending as a positive but also bring up Land of the Dead. Even if I agree that they (the studios, the creators, whoever) should have left well enough alone after Day (or Alien 3, if we're being honest), they didn't, and we're here to debate on what that fact ended up reaping. And, for what it's worth, I just feel like parts 4 - 6 of the Alien series ended up better, overall, than the counterparts in Romero's series. (I don't really count crossover movies as being a thing here, but if it did they would absolutely both be points against the Alien series, I'll grant you.) The Friday the 13th vs. Universal Monsters debate is the same one as the Child's Play vs UM debate, and several others that we've seen in the earlier rounds. And, I agree, there's no Friday movie that's up to the quality of Frankenstein or Son of Frankenstein individually. (It's actually kind of a weird mark for the Friday series that it's best film is the crossover film Freddy vs. Jason, which I already said I'm not weighing in the discussion.) But I also agree that, generally speaking, I find cohesiveness and consistency matters more in a franchise setting than any individual stand-out entries. And, in that manner, I would say the Friday series is one of the most consistent ones in this whole tournament, mainly because a lot of them end up covering the same ground over and over again. On an individual film-by-film basis, that would be detrimental, but weighing them as a cumulative experience, I think that ends up being a massive benefit here.
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2020 22:39
|
|
|
 : I agree that Friday the 13th is consistent.  : Consistently bad!Shrecknet posted:Bruh. Yeah, I'm not sure I believe that Alien doesn't have the cultural impact that Night has. I think the xenomorph, face hugger, and chest bursting are as widely culturally known as "they're coming to get you, Barbara" or anything else in Night. Sure, Romero shaped what we know of as "zombies" but I think Alien probably also shaped every horror/sci-fi hybrid that followed it (and yeah, in a big way in video games) and in a broader sense the idea of a horror movie existing outside the setting of a traditional horror movie. Romero probably helped shape a lot of the way political and social topics are discussed in the subtext of horror films, but I think Alien probably did a lot for sexual subtext and more social and political ideas. I love Night and I didn't think I'd be here. But I don't think I give it that "historical" edge over Alien. I think they are shockingly even the more I think about them. STAC Goat fucked around with this message at 22:54 on May 12, 2020 |
|
#
?
May 12, 2020 22:50
|
|
|
Shrecknet posted:Bruh. That may be true, but is ANY of it actually good? I'd argue that Alien has irrevocably ruined the entire genre due to its influence. The zombie genre, as dire as it is nowadays, has some drat good entries other than Romero's, but still thanks to him.
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2020 22:53
|
|
|
married but discreet posted:That may be true, but is ANY of it actually good? I'd argue that Alien has irrevocably ruined the entire genre due to its influence. I mean... there's probably more terrible zombie things out there than alien horrors.
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2020 22:55
|
|
|
Its very easy to vote against Jason, so that's a whatever. I feel like I'm going to jump back and forth on the other as we discuss and I do some watching. Alien and Prometheus are both all-timers for me, but the rest of the franchise is very uneven and I recognize that there's a favorite vs. important thing going on here. But everything after Night in that franchise is one of my big blindspots. I've been meaning to get around to Dawn and Day forever, so this is as good a chance as any.
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2020 23:02
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 11, 2024 23:55 |
|
|
Oh yeah, jesus, watch Dawn and Day. You gotta see them to get any sense of the franchise. And I think they're both on Youtube in decent quality.
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2020 23:04
|
|