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STAC Goat posted:
poo poo, I think you may have just staked the Friday the 13th series through the heart right there. It's got the Nightmare on Elm Street problem of "a super iconic character carrying a bunch of mediocre movies" - but even worse, since there has never been a stand-out classic "good" Jason movie the way Nightmare 1 is generally considered. (To say nothing of the debate around stuff like Dream Warriors or New Nightmare.) I knew this was gonna be a problem the Jason films would carry all the way to the end. I just didn't think the argument against them would be able to be so succinctly summed up by a pithy Muppets bit. STAC Goat posted:Oh yeah, jesus, watch Dawn and Day. You gotta see them to get any sense of the franchise. And I think they're both on Youtube in decent quality. I think Day is actually available for free with ads on Tubi and Pluto right now, or for free without ads on Kanopy. Dawn doesn't seem to be legally available anywhere, though. Class3KillStorm fucked around with this message at 23:14 on May 12, 2020 |
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May 12, 2020 23:09
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: I agree that Friday the 13th is consistent. 
: Consistently bad!
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Whoops, double post.
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May 12, 2020 23:12
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Class3KillStorm posted:I don't see how you can argue for Day of the Dead being the ending as a positive but also bring up Land of the Dead. It's not like I'm not counting the bad stuff in the Dead series and it's a tough call for me. But Land's existence doesn't invalidate Day as being a good end to the series. I'm hotter on Land than most, but it's very similar to Toy Story 4. It's not necessarily bad or even a bad ending, it's just unnecessary and very ignorable. With Dead I can watch the three Night movies and feel like I got this satisfying saga in the same way I can with Evil Dead, and that counts for something. Aliens just leaves me wanting this real Aliens sequel that never happened. EDIT: Also have you actually come out and said your Son is better than Bride hottake or are you just dancing around it until someone engages with it? Timeless Appeal fucked around with this message at 00:57 on May 13, 2020 |
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May 12, 2020 23:14
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I think its fair to say some franchises have a point that FEELS like an ending even if the franchise kept getting dragged out past it. Now whether that feeling holds or those sequels damage it, that's probably an individual call. I do definitely see Night, Dawn, and Day as their own quasi trilogy and Land and the others as kind of late stage add ons. And I agree with the assessment that something that hurts Alien is that Alien 3 really feels like it "betrays" Aliens and kind of pisses me off in a way that doesn't give it that same kind of "cohesive feel." I enjoyed the rest of the sequels to some extent or another but they no longer really felt like a single narrative I was engaged with.
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May 12, 2020 23:19
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STAC Goat posted:I mean... there's probably more terrible zombie things out there than alien horrors. Oh absolutely. But if we're talking influence, we'd be missing out on a whole lot of horror classics without the Romero trilogy, whereas Alien has given us pretty much nothing genuinely good that I can think of off hand (though I'd love to be reminded)
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May 12, 2020 23:49
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So I wrote a whole thing for Universal. Twice over, in fact. I would do it again in a heartbeat. I didn't continue responding to Class because, frankly, he wasn't arguing. He was stating his emotional feelings, not anything academic. And I will never try to argue someone away from what they love. If what you have to say is purely emotional, that's fine. It will stand or fall on its own and cannot be countered. I do not have their emotions and I do not want to make them double think that. I stand by every word I wrote for Universal, and will do so again and again as I can and must. So now I'm going to talk about Friday the 13th and our boy Jason Voorhees. Let's talk facts. Jason is not the first slasher- in fact he didn't even become the Jason we largely think of and consider until the fourth, maybe sixth, movie. His movies are not the most influential, they are not the best. There is not a single Friday the 13th that eclipses its peers. They are not the scariest, they are not the horniest, they are not the most violent and bloody and queerest. But Friday the 13th, more than any other franchise across this entire tournament and beyond, is The Most Horror Franchise of them all. Was Jason the first slasher? Not even close. Is he The Most Slasher? Almost definitely. Jason defined what it meant to be a slasher, and all others pay tribute to him. Michael shifted almost immediately in the wake of what Jason unleashed and the Rob Zombie films play a lot more on Jason characteristics than they do Michael. Freddy clashes with Jason so regularly that they are one of the few to have a crossover film and a gag including one in the other. Leatherface and Jason are so easily mixed up by media that people erroneously believe Jason's used a chainsaw, which itself is a cliche at this point since most people have been informed otherwise. The Friday the 13th franchise hits every hallmark of horror, from weird paranormal poo poo, to demons, to sci-fi bullshit, to queer as gently caress outings, to one of the FIRST meta horror narratives, to tipping the hat to the classics and looking ahead to the future. Everything Horror is, Friday the 13th Is. This includes all the bad with the good. Being stamped down by censorship and horrible political agendas, being railed against by critics who never once paid attention to a single film, convoluted continuity, shifting and rewritten backstories, unmade and unrealized potential, making the villain the hero and so, so much more. Friday the 13th isn't the best of anything, but it is Everything. Scream paid its dues well and true, and in the enduring pop culture, Jason looms large despite over a decade of dormancy. He has remained a consistent presence in comic books, video games, fan works, shout outs and on going inspirations. This is without touching the films themselves, which were a constantly evolving, changing narrative as the series mutated into this hybrid monstrosity that, if you asked any layman about, they'd bleed details together. Jason also never sinks as low as his peers. Across his breadth and domain, the valleys are not so far from the peaks, and all stay miles above the stagnant pits of the Nightmares, the Deads and the Halloweens. You can have Jason clash with Alien, Predator, Hannibal, any and everything and it just works. Horror as a genre is inconsistent, sloppy, messy and so very gay and that's all great. I love that. It crashes against censorship and morality police who believe they know what's best for you to see. Right or Left, these policies have always choked horror even in the beginning. And no franchise has suffered as deeply and as unjustly as Friday the 13th. Yet it still rises, time and time again, just as undead and unstoppable as its figurehead. Pamela, Jason, Roy, Tommy, icons all. People may not know Roy by name but they KNOW the one where "it wasn't really Jason". So if you want to vote for Friday the 13th and can't articulate why? There's nothing to be ashamed of. It is the ultimate expression of horror, its truest form for better or worse. There's no singular creative talent you can apply to Jason like you can his peers. The Universal films have notable directors and writers abound, actors you can point to. The others all have Something, Someone. Jason is the purest of all, a workhorse franchise driven by a studio that hated it only because people still loved it. And if you love it too, if you still support it, no one should be able to stop you. Yes, the Universal films are better. They are more important. But nothing is more horror than Friday the 13th.
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May 12, 2020 23:54
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married but discreet posted:Oh absolutely. But if we're talking influence, we'd be missing out on a whole lot of horror classics without the Romero trilogy, whereas Alien has given us pretty much nothing genuinely good that I can think of off hand (though I'd love to be reminded) Admittedly Event Horizon's the only one that really jumps to mind for me and I'm not sure that's a "classic" as much as a "cult classic." The truth is I don't really like sci-fi so I'm not a huge fan of horror/sci-fi hybrids so probably the worst person to make this case. I also don't play a ton of shooter video games where I think a lot of Alien's inspiration has been felt. I might toss in a film like Attack The Block as something that wasn't so much directly inspired by Alien but probably reaped some of the benefits of the genre hybrid that I think Alien really legitimized. But yeah, I can't think of a ton of obvious great examples to give. But to be honest I'm not sure we'd have that long of a list of agreed upon zombie classics beyond Return. Its a pretty polarizing sub genre and even as someone who loves them I can't say that many "classics" come to mind outside the Romero/Return group.
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May 12, 2020 23:59
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The thing about Romero's zombies is that they're really not zombies in the traditional sense. They're their own thing. Nightmare based villains weren't new, but Romero functionally created a modern monster for the 20th century with its own mythology. married but discreet posted:Oh absolutely. But if we're talking influence, we'd be missing out on a whole lot of horror classics without the Romero trilogy, whereas Alien has given us pretty much nothing genuinely good that I can think of off hand (though I'd love to be reminded)
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May 13, 2020 01:00
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Of course you can't have ALIEN without Dark Starr and The Terror From Beyond Space. ALIEN is basically just their baby, tattooed with dicks and vaginas by Giger. Thank you Carpenter and 1950s monster movies
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May 13, 2020 01:07
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Ok important question: Final-Girl Four Or Final Fear ?
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May 13, 2020 02:02
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Shrecknet posted:Ok important question: Final Fear for the last match
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May 13, 2020 02:02
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Is Savini's NOTLD remake a part of this? I assume it has to be if we're including Zombies Halloween films. Probably doesn't change my decision either way but might be an important tie breaker for some.
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May 13, 2020 04:01
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Basebf555 posted:Is Savini's NOTLD remake a part of this? I assume it has to be if we're including Zombies Halloween films. I think the problem with NotLD is if you allow the Savini remake, are you also allowing NotLD 3D and NotLD: Re-Animation? If so you may as well put Romero out of his misery right now. I think the agreement was that we're just sticking to the Romero films, because the copyright issues really opened up that franchise to a lot of predatory opportunism.
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May 13, 2020 04:36
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My personal tier of legitimacy to the franchise is like.. 1. Romero's films 2. Savini's remake 3. Snyder's Dawn and whoever made that really bad Day 4. All the other stuff that doesn't seem like it has any true link to Romero and basically exists because of copyright stuff I just count the Romero films myself, but I wouldn't really fight with someone who counted the Savini one and I'd begrudgingly accept the Dawn/Day remakes. But the other stuff feels like we're headed into "fan films" and like if anyone can make a "Night of the Living Dead" then I think it gets a little silly to count them all.
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May 13, 2020 04:52
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Isn't the Savini remake considered official? So, I'm thinking of trying to host some streaming double features of franchises competing against each other. Like a Friday/Universal and Romero/Alien double on different nights. I guess the question is, do I play the key films of each series, or do I pick out a random sequel and try and get into the spirit of the tournament by highlighting a lesser seen film from each series.
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May 13, 2020 04:52
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I believe both Romero and Russo were involved in Savini's so like, yeah its probably as close to "official" as possible outside the direct Romero continuity. I think Dawn/Day are "official" in the legal sense. For me the fact that they don't even have "romeros" is symbolic of how little they really connect to the whole in any meaningful way. The rest are all just "anyone can legally make one" films, I think.
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May 13, 2020 04:53
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Jason is my beautiful boy and I love his wormy face. I have an enormous amount of fun watching every single one of his glorious lovely movies. That said, the older I get the stronger pathos plays a part in how I judge a horror movie. And in my mind there’s nothing in the Friday movies that comes close to evoking the pathos of Bride of Frankenstein. “You stay. We belong dead.” just cuts me to the bone in a way none of the Fridays have ever accomplished. That alone is enough for me to vote Universal.
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May 13, 2020 04:56
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TrixRabbi posted:Isn't the Savini remake considered official? I'd vote for watching the two strongest entries in a franchise, rather than diving into the back catalogue. Just for sake of watchability more than anything else. The only issue then would be what's considered a good example of the franchise. For me Dawn is the best of the NotLD films, but there have been plenty of people in the thread who've said Dawn is the weakest. And in the April thread there was a lot of disagreement over what counts as a good Friday film.
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May 13, 2020 05:12
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TrixRabbi posted:Isn't the Savini remake considered official? While I like the idea of showing two lessers, you gotta do Jason Lives & Bride of Frankenstein double feature.
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May 13, 2020 12:51
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I feel like Day of the Dead and Aliens are a good match up as well. Both pull the trick of giving you these hyper-competent action movie characters only for it to be revealed that nope, you're still watching a horror movie.
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May 13, 2020 14:04
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Timeless Appeal posted:I feel like Day of the Dead and Aliens are a good match up as well. Both pull the trick of giving you these hyper-competent action movie characters only for it to be revealed that nope, you're still watching a horror movie. LOL who does that describe in Day? None of the army dudes seemed remotely competent.
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May 13, 2020 14:09
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Day of the Dead is like if every character in Aliens was Paul Reiser
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May 13, 2020 14:14
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Stink Billyums posted:Day of the Dead is like if every character in Aliens was Paul Reiser True, but it takes like 30 minutes for that to be fully uncovered, as the characters interact and have their various meetings. That's part of the horror of the movie, the dawning realization that these soldiers are morons just barely hanging onto their sanity by latching onto the only leader they have, and he happens to be a full-on psycho. But that isn't clear right from the outset.
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May 13, 2020 14:17
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Universal over Jason was an easy one. Something about Jason has just never clicked with me but I grew up watching Abbott and Costello Meet Frankenstein. Alien vs NOTLD was tough though. In the end I went with my gut, which told me Alien.
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May 13, 2020 14:46
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Franchescanado posted:While I like the idea of showing two lessers, you gotta do Jason Lives & Bride of Frankenstein double feature. You're completely right there. I may not be able to stream over this weekend, so would people be around tonight for that?
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May 13, 2020 14:53
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The bracket in the first post still hasn't updated.
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May 13, 2020 14:55
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Tonight beginning at 8:30 EST/5:30 PST: Evil Eight Double Feature: The Bride of Frankenstein and Friday the 13th Part VI: Jason Lives  Streaming live at: https://windowsmoviehouse.com/trixrabbi/
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May 13, 2020 16:57
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I have a lot of respect for Jason and the F13 series. But as pointed out, Friday never had that definitive, franchise defining high mark. It's a subjective sliding scale of terrible to pretty drat great. But I personally never felt it was phenomenal. Whereas the Universal Movies, both Frankenstein and Bride are cultural landmarks that leave me impressed to this day. Those two are a duology that I would feel good about sharing with people who think they don't like horror, or old movies. As for NotLD and Alien, it's tough. But I've always judge these things based on their cultural high marks, and their Horror-iness. And to me, that's both the original Night, and the first Alien. And in my heart, Alien is a movie that is a really loving good slasher/monster movie. Perhaps the best of either subgenre. But Night grips me viscerally. That is an out and out horror tour de force that catches you off guard and destroys your hope. The distillation of what this genre is capable of doing at it's peak, Night just has it by the bucket.
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May 13, 2020 18:14
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Friday the 13th has three high marks, though. Parts 2, 4 and 6, and each perfectly capture their era of Jason. Part 2 is the best of the Summer Camp Friday films. Part 4 is the best Vacation Cabin Friday films, and really the end of "Alive" Jason. Part 6 is an amalgation of classic Fridays, with summer camp, the Jarvis era, and also the beginning of Zombie Jason. It's also the one that came out in the heart of the slasher boom, and whether or not it's a person's individual favorite, it really is the easiest to point to as the Jason movie. If we wanna talk about cultural importance, I think everyone's forgetting that Friday the 13th's original is a blueprint for so many American slashers. It spawned the Summer Camp horror movie. Unlike TCM and Halloween and Elm Street, the killer in Parts 1 & 2 (and 5) are mysteries. It took the killer POV from Pyscho and made it a part of every single kill. (Really, this came more from proto-slashers Eyes of Laura Mars and Alice Sweet Alice). It's the first one to really incorporate gore into the kills (even Elm Street learned that from Friday). If you were to say "What is the best example of a 1980s slasher?", the answer is probably Friday 2, 4 or 6. So many slashers in that era are POV killers, which is in 2 & 4, while 6 drops that angle to show Jason more, like Michael Meyers. I agree that Frankenstein is a shining example of cultural impact of horror. The monster's design from the original is still the most popular. And The Bride of Frankenstein's final 15 minutes are still being referenced to this day when we need a shorthand for mad scientist doing experiments. It's still a little silly to say that Jason's design is equally impactful. Every Halloween I see kids in hockey masks and machetes more than I see Frankensteins, Draculas, Freddys, Chuckys or even Michael Meyers. Sure, part of that is the ease/laziness of the costume, but it's pretty significant that a kid in a hockey mask--a design which hasn't even been used for hockey in decades!--is shorthand for "Jason". Meanwhile, if you were ask a random person "Do you know Frankenstein?" they'll of course tell you "Yeah, big guy, bolts in his neck, walks like an idiot". And if you ask "Do you know Jason?" they'll be like "Yeah, hockey mask, machete, kills campers." But if you ask "What do you know about Bride of Frankenstein?" they're probably going to describe what she looks like, and nothing about the movie whatsoever. Similarly to "Who is Pamela Voorhees, and what movie is she in?" Also Frankenstein may have hung out with Alvin and the Chipmunks, but Jason was on Arsenio Hall and the MTV awards, The Simpsons, and still shows up in video games to this day. I haven't played Frankenstein: The Game with my friends online, screaming like goofs cuz our adrenaline is pumping. I have with Jason. edit: I just found out there is a J-Pop band themed after Jason: 
Franchescanado fucked around with this message at 18:43 on May 13, 2020 |
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May 13, 2020 18:37
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Ah ha, but here's one thing your well-reasoned, well-argued, and well-articulated point misses: slashers blow.
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May 13, 2020 18:40
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Also having spoken at length in defense of both, I will also say- If you shotgunned Frankenstein and Bride, they are a near perfect combination that, total, clock in under two hours and thirty minutes. So even in a modern context, if you welded the two together, it's still more than capable of going toe to toe with any modern horror masters. Though I think that's also a great benefit of the Universal lot- they're not going to drag. They almost never go past an hour thirty and rarely an hour twenty. You slap one on and you're out in an hour.
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May 13, 2020 18:40
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Burkion posted:Also having spoken at length in defense of both, I will also say- If you shotgunned Frankenstein and Bride, they are a near perfect combination that, total, clock in under two hours and thirty minutes. So even in a modern context, if you welded the two together, it's still more than capable of going toe to toe with any modern horror masters. Man, if I ever finish my fan edit, you will be able to watch Fridays Parts 1-4 in less than 3 hours, by my math. I gladly admit that all the recaps in parts 2-4 suck, but VHS was still expensive and wouldn't become more commonly owned and affordable until '84ish. feedmyleg posted:Ah ha, but here's one thing your well-reasoned, well-argued, and well-articulated point misses: slashers blow. I can name dozens of good slashers! DOZENS!
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May 13, 2020 18:46
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Franchescanado posted:Man, if I ever finish my fan edit, you will be able to watch Fridays Parts 1-4 in less than 3 hours, by my math. Oh yeah, no, the recaps are a necessary thing. Honestly the Friday films share a lot of the same strengths, Re: Get In and Get Out. To make it clear to the thread, I love both pretty equally and am ride or die with whoever wins to take down the rest of the tournament. So either get ready for more Burk Loves Jason posts or more Burk Talks Classic Media posts. Vote accordingly
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May 13, 2020 18:49
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Yeah, my mentality at this point is "No matter who loses, we win". I love films in all four franchises, and they're all strong. My major hang-up right now is if Universal Monsters takes the cake for all of them. They are absolutely great films that I love and continue to rewatch, but giving "Best Horror Franchise" to films released in the 1930s and ended in the 40's around WW2, there's an underlying implication that horror franchises and maybe the genre are diminishing results. I think that's a pessimistic perspective. You can also argue that there's something magic about 90 year old films still being great. But I can help but feel it's a flower in the bonnet of the old fart that bemoans "Horror ain't what it used to be"
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May 13, 2020 18:56
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That's kind of a concern I have with stuff like Hannibal winning it all, honestly. Oh, horror only gets awards when it's a Thriller, not horror. Horror is a trash genre and we must elevate it. Thus everyone should vote for the dumbest, funnest, bestest horror of them all- Friday the 13th. No pretension, no clout, just blood, guts and nudity.
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May 13, 2020 19:06
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Burkion posted:That's kind of a concern I have with stuff like Hannibal winning it all, honestly. 
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May 13, 2020 19:10
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Burkion posted:That's kind of a concern I have with stuff like Hannibal winning it all, honestly. tbf I think Lecter is DOA against Halloween. Every other matchup right now is a true tossup though.
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May 13, 2020 19:17
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Vote for Friday the 13th, it sucks so much it won't make any of the losers feel self conscious.
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May 13, 2020 19:18
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Franchescanado posted:I think that's a pessimistic perspective. You can also argue that there's something magic about 90 year old films still being great. But I can help but feel it's a flower in the bonnet of the old fart that bemoans "Horror ain't what it used to be" Nah. I think it's more like Shakespeare—nobody thinks that plays have been a series of diminishing returns just because there's one inescapable gorilla in the room. Nobody rolls their eyes at Ibsen and goes "Yeah, but what's the point? He's no Shakespeare. It's all been downhill since 1613!" It's going to lurk in the background of every conversation about the medium but that doesn't mean that it devalues what comes after. If we had a similar tournament about playwrites we'd be facing the same issue.
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May 13, 2020 19:20
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| # ? Apr 28, 2024 06:51 |
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Franchescanado posted:edit: I just found out there is a J-Pop band themed after Jason: Oh cool, let me check this out...  https://youtu.be/F0XFdFhkTuo
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May 13, 2020 19:21
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