|
Some Goon posted:The prequels are a low point in cinema. Every minute is agony, like when Anakin is back with Padme. The closer you watch, the worse it gets. The thought of the horrific acting and dialogue-- I can't breathe. I'm haunted by the movies George should never have given me. My heart is beating, hoping that those movies will not become a scar. They are in the very soul of the the fandom, tormenting me. What can I do? like i said, bizarre
|
#
?
Jun 17, 2020 19:59
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 26, 2024 14:52 |
|
|
Some Goon posted:The prequels are a low point in cinema. Every minute is agony, like when Anakin is back with Padme. The closer you watch, the worse it gets. The thought of the horrific acting and dialogue-- I can't breathe. I'm haunted by the movies George should never have given me. My heart is beating, hoping that those movies will not become a scar. They are in the very soul of the the fandom, tormenting me. What can I do? Lighten up about Star Wars?
|
|
#
?
Jun 17, 2020 20:09
|
|
|
cuntman.net posted:i can understand not liking the prequels but actually thinking the sequels are better is a completely bizarre concept People have legit put so much effort into making the prequels the worst abominations in cinema history that the idea that anything could be worse does not compute. How can something that destroyed your entire childhood not be worse than some cynical empty corporate cash-in from when you are already a hollowed out middle-aged consumer. Like, the prequels at least form a narrative arc across 3 movies which the sequels botched hilariously. The prequels IMO were always just, at worst, another set of mediocre blockbusters in a sea of them. Compared to other existing Star Wars they looked like trash, but it could always get worse (and holy smokes did it get worse lol)
|
|
#
?
Jun 17, 2020 20:11
|
|
|
Some Goon posted:The prequels are a low point in cinema. Every minute is agony, like when Anakin is back with Padme. The closer you watch, the worse it gets. The thought of the horrific acting and dialogue-- I can't breathe. I'm haunted by the movies George should never have given me. My heart is beating, hoping that those movies will not become a scar. They are in the very soul of the the fandom, tormenting me. What can I do? ok to be fair as much as i complain about the sequels they never destroyed my soul or whatevers going on here so i guess theyre less bad after all
|
|
#
?
Jun 17, 2020 20:22
|
|
|
Grendels Dad posted:Lighten up about Star Wars? https://youtu.be/5rJS3VBZcz0 E: its a (slightly modified) quote from the prequels.
|
|
#
?
Jun 17, 2020 20:22
|
|
|
Well, at least it's not just you posting Plinkett. e: ah, clever.
|
|
#
?
Jun 17, 2020 20:23
|
|
|
I'll take a genuine disaster over a fake, hollow cash-in any day.
|
|
#
?
Jun 17, 2020 20:25
|
|
|
From an artistic standpoint the prequels have everything over the sequels. They are as close as you'll come to a singular vision realized in mainstream cinema. But if I had to actually watch either I'd take the sequels; not that I intend to.
|
|
#
?
Jun 17, 2020 20:31
|
|
|
The Prequels rule because they are willing to show you the universe rather than tell you about it. You see strange, new worlds that aren't just cynical copies of past settings. Naboo, Coruscant, Kamino, Geonosis, Utapau, Felucia, Kashyyyk, Mustafar are all beautiful and unique. The aliens you encounter are different and recognizable. They tell a complete story about how the Republic fails when people trust a few select people to tell them what to do rather than participate as a group in the political process. People shouldn't expect a solitary "strong leader" to make decisions for them, even when that option seems. People shouldn't rely on a strange cult of mystical ascetics to protect them. People need to participate in the system and work together. People need to care. Those are the themes that get brought into the Original Trilogy, and allow for that final triumph over evil in Episode VI. The good guys win because everyone is working together. It sounds like a sappy moral for kids, but that's what attracted me to the movies in the first place. I stopped watching the Sequel Trilogy after TFA because I honestly had no idea what the story was about, or where it fit into that narrative. Seeing the victory in ROTJ rolled back to reestablish a crapsack galaxy without an explanation why was frustrating, and there is better media for me to spend my time on. Like rewatching Cats 2019.
|
|
#
?
Jun 17, 2020 20:32
|
|
|
Some Goon posted:The sequels are creatively bankrupt, just another spectacle churned out like clockwork from the Disney movie machine. At best it can be said 'they had some cool action scenes'. The Last Jedi is the one film in Disney-era Star Wars that doesn't feel like a committee produced/franchise driven product, and that's why I believe it stands out among the rest and is part of why I love it so much—it's right in line with the OT and PT films wrt being extremely filmmaker driven, with all its weird quirks and directorial trappings (it's easy to pick out TLJ from TFA and TROS simply by how it looks). I could gush over the film for days, easily, and have done so in other threads plenty of times. It just bums me out that others can't see how great TLJ is like I do. Like, I get the divisiveness though and can acknowledge its faults, but maaaaan, lol. TLJ is so good. teagone fucked around with this message at 21:06 on Jun 17, 2020 |
|
#
?
Jun 17, 2020 21:04
|
|
|
From my perspective it's the Jedi that are evil.
|
|
#
?
Jun 17, 2020 21:16
|
|
|
cuntman.net posted:like i said, bizarre Grendels Dad posted:Lighten up about Star Wars? cuntman.net posted:ok to be fair as much as i complain about the sequels they never destroyed my soul or whatevers going on here so i guess theyre less bad after all expert joke identifiers ITT
|
|
#
?
Jun 17, 2020 21:20
|
|
|
Cease to Hope posted:expert joke identifiers ITT In my defense, this is the forum that created that Blockbuster subforum because so many goons are a bunch of weiners.
|
|
#
?
Jun 17, 2020 21:29
|
|
|
ONE YEAR LATER posted:From my perspective it's the Jedi that are evil. "The Prequels are unironically good" Sorry Zoomers but while I'll cop to Gen-X and Millennials being way too harsh on the prequels, that doesn't mean they're unfairly maligned sleeper masterpieces. I know you have fond memories watching them on the car DVD player when you were 5 in-between rounds of Mario Kart DS. I have similar memories of Gremlins 2 and Mighty Morphin Power Rangers: The Movie on a crappy VHS in my single dad's crap apartment while struggling to connect to AOL, but your subjective enjoyment and eagerness to claim something as "yours" is getting in the way of better judgment. teagone posted:The Last Jedi is the one film in Disney-era Star Wars that doesn't feel like a committee produced/franchise driven product, and that's why I believe it stands out among the rest and is part of why I love it so much—it's right in line with the OT and PT films wrt being extremely filmmaker driven, with all its weird quirks and directorial trappings (it's easy to pick out TLJ from TFA and TROS simply by how it looks). Like do y'all like the movie Logan? You do realize that Old Man Luke's story is the same story right? The only difference is the perspective the story is told from-- Logan's is told from Logan's, Luke's is told from Rey's.
|
|
#
?
Jun 17, 2020 21:35
|
|
|
It's a solid Luke story, but then the b story of everyone else is largely extraneous. That is, while he needs a reason to be a hero again By the same workings, if it's a story about the new cast Luke takes up too much of the film. I'll give you that it's not soulless like TFA, but it's a bit of a mess. But, as I said at some point previously, TLJs problems are to some degree the fault of being a sequel to TFA which didn't lay a strong foundation for a sequel. Determining to what degree and a more in-depth criticism of TLJ would require re-watching both of them, probably multiple times, and I can't say that's something I'm up for doing.
|
|
#
?
Jun 17, 2020 21:48
|
|
|
mind the walrus posted:"The Prequels are unironically good" is this also a quote from a movie
|
|
#
?
Jun 17, 2020 21:53
|
|
|
You wish
|
|
#
?
Jun 17, 2020 21:57
|
|
|
We have a perfectly good prequeldome thread if you want to have weird unfunny meltdowns about the prequels.
|
|
#
?
Jun 17, 2020 21:58
|
|
|
Some Goon posted:It's a solid Luke story, but then the b story of everyone else is largely extraneous. I had recently done a little write up on why I love the Canto Bight scene in particular in the CineD SW thread if you're interested. It's a sequence that I think tells a lot about what Rian Johnson had in mind when setting up the Rose/Finn character dynamic and the "bigger picture" moving forward into Episode IX, but unfortunately the set up RJ gave JJ was completely ignored and those character ideas were never realized in favor of giving Dominic Monaghan more lines than Kelly Marie Tran, and reducing Finn's character to somehow be an even lesser version of his TFA self.
|
|
#
?
Jun 17, 2020 22:00
|
|
|
Sequel defenders and prequel defenders in here? My word this is scary. the only times the last jedi felt confident and strong enough to not be an assembly line, no risks taken modern blockbuster film it completely hosed up, and then it was cowardly enough to walk it all back at the end anyways. It's a very bad movie that has a very large effects budget. nearly every part of the movie is filled with the exact same problems you would see in any marvel movie, which are also devoid of artistic vision. Some Goon posted:It's a solid Luke story, but then the b story of everyone else is largely extraneous. That is, while he needs a reason to be a hero again By the same workings, if it's a story about the new cast Luke takes up too much of the film. I'll give you that it's not soulless like TFA, but it's a bit of a mess. I would absolutely agree with this, but I don't think it absolves TLJ of being a bad movie, because it goes on to establish the flimsiest possible setting for the story TLJ is trying to tell, even if we ignore the glaring flaws of the macro-story that the sequels were ostensibly supposed to present as a whole. The movie can't even hold itself up, but naturally there was no way they could make up for the completely vapidity of a JJ Abrams film.
|
|
#
?
Jun 17, 2020 22:20
|
|
|
Bogus Adventure posted:They tell a complete story about how the Republic fails when people trust a few select people to tell them what to do rather than participate as a group in the political process. People shouldn't expect a solitary "strong leader" to make decisions for them, even when that option seems. People shouldn't rely on a strange cult of mystical ascetics to protect them. People need to participate in the system and work together. People need to care. ... how is any of this in the Prequels? There are no on-the-ground perspectives, no insight into the common people's thoughts on the war, Palpatine or the Jedi, nothing in the narrative that serves as a call to action or a condemnation of apathy. Our point of view characters are entirely driven by their personal convictions and the story never tries to relate those personal motives to the systemic structure of the galaxy or its politics. The Original Trilogy consistently painted the Old Republic as a golden age and the Rebels as fighting to reclaim it from darkness, and while the Prequels do show us a disconnect between that romanticism and what reality was, they never address or engages that disconnect in any way. Anakin was a slave in a society that had purported to abolish slavery because of corruption and anemia, and was raised up into power and prosperity because of his abilities. Can we infer that this history informs his being enamored with authoritarianism and might-makes-right ideology, as well as the possessive nature of his concept of love which drives him toward evil after the loss of his mother and the threated loss of his wife? Yes! Does the movie actually do anything with that idea? No! Could we read that Padme's neglect of her once-proactive and progressive political career in Revenge in favor of wrapping herself up in her relationship and her pregnancy as a sign of the Republic's institutional failures and its elites inherent complicity in the rise of fascism? Sure. Could we read Obi-Wan and Yoda's choice to go into exile as a tacit acknowledgment of the Jedi's inability to rise to the challenges of evil and a passing of the torch to the common people of the galaxy as the ones who can liberate themselves? We could. Does the movie actually do anything to make that implication text? Of course it doesn't. I don't know if you're reading later material like Clone Wars and various novels back into the Prequels post-facto or what, but you're giving those films credit they don't deserve for stories they never told. The prequels have two things going for them: solid world/lore building which allowed more competent storytellers to do effective things with their setting and character over the course of two following decades of work trying to salvage them, and a semi-competent two-movie character study/arc (I say two because Phantom Menace is the most pointless film ever made and contributes nothing to the other two) for two of its characters, Anakin and Obi-wan. Maybe 2.5 if you want to credit them for intermitten good scenes for Padme and Palpatine. Sanguinia fucked around with this message at 22:25 on Jun 17, 2020 |
|
#
?
Jun 17, 2020 22:22
|
|
|
Sanguinia posted:... how is any of this in the Prequels? There are no on-the-ground perspectives, no insight into the common people's thoughts on the war, Palpatine or the Jedi, nothing in the narrative that serves as a call to action or a condemnation of apathy. Our point of view characters are entirely driven by their personal convictions and the story never tries to relate those personal motives to the systemic structure of the galaxy or its politics. The Original Trilogy consistently painted the Old Republic as a golden age and the Rebels as fighting to reclaim it from darkness, and while the Prequels do show us a disconnect between that romanticism and what reality was, they never address or engages that disconnect in any way. I dunno, I always got this out of the movies: Palpatine becomes chancellor, convinces the senate to grant him emergency powers, and then builds enough of a cult of personality around himself that he is able to end the republic and declare himself Emperor. Nobody chooses to oppose him, despite him effectively committing treason against the Republic. Instead, the politicians just sit and watch. Maybe it is because he's an evil space wizard with ultimate power, but this is something we've seen happen throughout our own history. The Republic, rather than have a defense force with popular oversight, also relies on the Jedi---reluctant guardians who are ill-equipped to handle war---to fight their battles for them. Valorum sends Jinn and Kenobi to investigate Naboo rather than take more direct action to protect its constituents. They also may or may not have ordered a clone army to fight the Republic's battles for them. The fight at Geonosis in Attack of the Clones is cool to watch, but you see it completely decimate the Jedi. They are not an army. They are not a fighting force. They are just people with powers. Just out of curiosity, does anyone know the answer to this quesiton? With the exception of the two Republic Judicial Forces officers who are killed by the Trade Federation, how many other members of the Republic fight or die trying to protect it? There are the Naboo pilots and Padme's bodyguard, but anyone else? Maybe I'm inventing headcanon or looking at them through rose-colored glasses, but that is the message I see in it.
|
|
#
?
Jun 17, 2020 23:16
|
|
|
The hero characterization in TLJ is some of the strongest in the franchise imo. Iconoclast Luke? Amazing path to take the character that I thought was executed perfectly. Radicalized revolutionary Finn? That's such an inspired storyline: defected stormtrooper, turned resistance fighter, now knows the truth behind the war he was raised to fight in and it burns his soul. Love that. Rose being emblematic of the oppressed/impoverished struggle? Her character simply existing opened the door to perfectly embellish a strong narrative through-line in the SW universe; the embodiment of working class folk in the form of a space mechanic (Rose) and a space janitor (Finn) being primed to lead a galaxy-wide revolution against a fascist regime owns something fierce. Such a shame that was never realized. Poe's arc is probably the weakest relative to everyone else's in TLJ, but I have no issues with how his story was handled. Cocky and arrogant pilot who romanticizes war and heroism is brought back down to earth works well enough for me. And then you have Rey going further on her monomythic journey, learning hard truths and deliberately crossing paths with Kylo Ren who she feels and knows is ripe for redemption. AND for a fleeting moment, she feels she has drawn the good in Ben Solo out to thwart a common threat? Rey's story in TLJ is easily my favorite, and I love how its intertwined with Ben's. Though, the best thing about the development of Rey's character in TLJ was that while everyone speculated the story would reveal she was a Skywalker, a Kenobi, or a Palpatine, etc., that she came from a bloodline strong in the Force, Rian Johnson said no; Rey is strong because she's just Rey. And she is enough. I can't really put into words just how disappointed I was with TROS turning Rey into a vessel for nostalgia. JJ and co regressing all of Rey's experience and growth from TFA through TLJ, trading all that in for nostalgic shenanigans? Just, lmao.
|
|
#
?
Jun 17, 2020 23:27
|
|
|
Bogus Adventure posted:Like rewatching Cats 2019. Hell yeah.
|
|
#
?
Jun 17, 2020 23:38
|
|
|
Master Yoda will be in Avatar 2. Mark my words.
|
|
#
?
Jun 17, 2020 23:39
|
|
|
teagone posted:The hero characterization in TLJ is some of the strongest in the franchise imo. Iconoclast Luke? Amazing path to take the character that I thought was executed perfectly. Radicalized revolutionary Finn? That's such an inspired storyline: defected stormtrooper, turned resistance fighter, now knows the truth behind the war he was raised to fight in and it burns his soul. Love that. Rose being emblematic of the oppressed/impoverished struggle? Her character simply existing opened the door to perfectly embellish a strong narrative through-line in the SW universe; the embodiment of working class folk in the form of a space mechanic (Rose) and a space janitor (Finn) being primed to lead a galaxy-wide revolution against a fascist regime owns something fierce. Such a shame that was never realized. Poe's arc is probably the weakest relative to everyone else's in TLJ, but I have no issues with how his story was handled. Cocky and arrogant pilot who romanticizes war and heroism is brought back down to earth works well enough for me. wtf
|
|
#
?
Jun 17, 2020 23:43
|
|
|
josh04 posted:Hell yeah.  
|
|
#
?
Jun 17, 2020 23:49
|
|
|
yeah that's a good post, thanks for reposting it
|
|
#
?
Jun 17, 2020 23:52
|
|
|
Rian Johnson's decision to make Luke a cynical, defeated old man was one of the few genuinely interesting ideas of the sequels. It's let down a little by the fact that the specifics of the scenario have implications that make Luke an absolute monster—like the fact that many children in Luke's care died as a result of his actions, and he never said a word to their parents. I do not think RJ intended that, but it’s inescapable based on what we know in TFA and TLJ. But the real problem is that the film is Rian Johnson's liberal fantasy, and as such its message is not actually iconoclasm or egalitarianism or anything like that. Rather, the conclusion of the movie is that comfortable pablum actually is good and correct. RJ's formula is to subvert your expectations twice. The first time, he presents a shocking truth. Powerful interests are secretly playing both sides against each other for profit. The old Jedi sucked and were so proud of their powers that they let a Sith Lord take over the Republic and turn it against them. The great Luke Skywalker created the villain, he hates everything he has built in his life, and he wants to die. But then these are all resolved in a way that restores your original preconceptions. The film waves at the idea that war is itself immoral, but it doesn’t matter in the end because the twelve people in the Millennium Falcon have all the oppressed people in the galaxy on their side (because they handed a trinket to a slave boy). The ancient wisdom of the Jedi, and their folly, are irrelevant because Rey actually just needs to go be a superhero. Luke Skywalker “atones” for his failures with one final act that makes him the ultimate symbol of Good across the galaxy. So the thesis of the film is that the only things that truly matter are cultural signifiers. That's what makes it the perfect distillation of the liberal mindset circa 2016: there's a certain smugness because of liberal ascendancy in the culture, but it's suppressing a deep-seated malaise based on the knowledge that the system actually sucks and you have no idea what to do about it. Zoran fucked around with this message at 01:37 on Jun 18, 2020 |
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2020 00:18
|
|
|
I'm just trying to articulate my own thoughts as to why I think TLJ is the best live-action feature the franchise has to offer in terms of story and character. It's much easier to point out how well TLJ compares visually to the other movies—its production design and general aesthetic is absolutely stellar imo—but most don't want to engage with how well TLJ handles narrative and characterization. And I get it, not everyone agrees with/likes the direction the film took certain characters, or that some plotlines straight up just don't appeal to them, but for me, TLJ hits all the right notes and I try my best to explain as such. I think it's much better than just vaguely claiming "The story and characters are great!" and whatnot, which doesn't contribute much to meaningful discussion.
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2020 00:20
|
|
|
Basebf555 posted:I'll take a genuine disaster over a fake, hollow cash-in any day.
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2020 00:53
|
|
|
I absolutely love TLJ. I think its pacing can feel off because the climactic duel isn't the real climactic duel, but I love that. I enjoy all three narrative arcs, but the central story of Kylo, Luke, and Rey would carry it even if I didn't. It features some of the best performances of any Star Wars movie. It's absolutely gorgeous throughout, and I think it has some of the most striking and memorable moments from the entire franchise. I understand the problems around here with its politics, but I also think that Star Wars has always been more about squishy liberalism than the more leftist interpretation that is popular here.
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2020 00:55
|
|
|
Zoran posted:But the real problem is that the film is Rian Johnson's liberal fantasy, and as such its message is not actually iconoclasm or egalitarianism or anything like that. Rather, the conclusion of the movie is that comfortable pablum actually is good and correct. This is a more a cynical way to approach viewing TLJ, but I respect it. I don't agree, but I can see how you're able to read the film like that. I don't believe the film undercuts its classist themes in the way you mention, but instead hands off the narrative with multiple threads open, ready to be explored in the next film. I think your argument works, but only because TROS is a movie that actually exists, lol. [edit] By that I mean, I feel TROS reinforces your idea that the message of TLJ is milquetoast boilerplate-ism is the only way to fly, haha. teagone fucked around with this message at 01:16 on Jun 18, 2020 |
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2020 00:57
|
|
|
teagone posted:I'm just trying to articulate my own thoughts as to why I think TLJ is the best live-action feature the franchise has to offer in terms of story and character. It's much easier to point out how well TLJ compares visually to the other movies—its production design and general aesthetic is absolutely stellar imo—but most don't want to engage with how well TLJ handles narrative and characterization. And I get it, not everyone agrees with/likes the direction the film took certain characters, or that some plotlines straight up just don't appeal to them, but for me, TLJ hits all the right notes and I try my best to explain as such. I think it's much better than just vaguely claiming "The story and characters are great!" and whatnot, which doesn't contribute much to meaningful discussion. You did great. I was going to gush-post about Last Jedi too but I took a nap and now I don't have to because you did it for me 
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2020 01:07
|
|
|
Sanguinia posted:You did great. I was going to gush-post about Last Jedi too but I took a nap and now I don't have to because you did it for me 
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2020 01:14
|
|
|
I see the praise for TLJ and I swear we must be watching different movies. Or at least a profound willingness to gloss over scenes that are idiotic and or nonsensical. Idiotic: Finn and Rose free the space horses, not the enslaved children. Rose takes a harness off one of said horses and proclaims, "NOW it was worth it." Those horses are less than a mile from where they escaped from, it's not like they'll be recaptured within hours. Nonsensical: Hux orders Kylo Ren to stop attacking the Resistance ships because 'We can't support you at this range.' What? He already wiped out their entire fighter and bomber compliment, plus the command deck of the flagship. They don't need support! Launch your own fighters! Edit: I left The Last Jedi gushing about it. My sister looked at me and asked if I was serious. SolarFire2 fucked around with this message at 05:44 on Jun 18, 2020 |
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2020 05:36
|
|
|
"The scene where Finn falls into poop is good. The scene with Jar Jar stepping in poop is proof Lucas raped my childhood."
|
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2020 07:42
|
|
|
"The scene where Luke calls the Jedi out on their hubristic dogma and how it allowed the Empire to rise is incredible. The trilogy where Lucas showed that happen gangbanged my childhood and/or isn't supported by the films."
|
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2020 07:48
|
|
|
SolarFire2 posted:I see the praise for TLJ and I swear we must be watching different movies. Or at least a profound willingness to gloss over scenes that are idiotic and or nonsensical. 75% of Star Wars is reliant on being willing to gloss over idiotic and nonsensical stuff. Its a franchise about emotional resonance and messages that speak to deep beliefs in the way that mythology does. When you read the Illiad do you obsess over the plot holes or the fact that characters constantly do stupid poo poo because the Gods literally make them, or do you focus on stoic Prince Hector removing his gleaming helm because it frightens his son, Achilles scream of rage and grief for his fallen lover turning aside an entire army, and Priam kissing the hands of the man who murdered his son in a desperate bid to awaken his compassion? Yes, the very best Star Wars does not demand this of its audience, but the majority of it does. Its why people in this very thread are defending the Prequels. Its why even though I hate Phantom Menance more than almost anything in the world, I still have a soft spot for Qui-gon Jin and Darth Maul. Last Jedi has this resonance in spades across almost all its characters, events and themes, that's why its among the best the franchise has regardless of its flaws. Milkfred E. Moore posted:"The scene where Luke calls the Jedi out on their hubristic dogma and how it allowed the Empire to rise is incredible. The trilogy where Lucas showed that happen gangbanged my childhood and/or isn't supported by the films." The trilogy of films that showed that happen was blissfully unaware that it was happening and did nothing to incorporate that happening into its story, its one of the biggest reasons why there was two decades of people writing stories set during the Prequel Era where that was a central conceit that they went out of their way to explore. Sanguinia fucked around with this message at 07:57 on Jun 18, 2020 |
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2020 07:54
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 26, 2024 14:52 |
|
|
you seem to be having this argument with yourself, friend
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2020 08:04
|
|