Star Wars: Squadrons: B-Wings vs TIE Defenders

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Video Games > Star Wars: Squadrons: B-Wings vs TIE Defenders

Julius CSAR: Oct 3, 2007; by sebmojo

A good flight combat game should be asymmetrical. If you have two craft of the exact same performance you�ll just have two guys endlessly following each other in a circle at the same speed. Extremely boring.

Learning how to exploit your craft�s advantages AND disadvantages against other craft is what makes those experiences so much fun.

# ? Jun 17, 2020 20:18

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# ? Apr 29, 2024 14:10

PhotoKirk: Jul 2, 2007; insert witty text here

I just want my missile boat.

# ? Jun 17, 2020 20:35

Jose Oquendo: Jun 20, 2004; Star Trek: The Motion Picture is a boring movie

PhotoKirk posted:

I just want my missile boat.

Have those been re-introduced into the CANON?

TIE Defenders have, but I doubt we'll see them.

# ? Jun 17, 2020 20:53

Arc Hammer: Mar 4, 2013; Got any deathsticks?

Chomp8645 posted:

They're fast... I guess, although they aren't really shown being identifiable faster than rebel fighters in the movies (if "look at the movies" is your argument). But I'm kinda scratching my head at the other two.

Well armed? In non-video game lore TIE fighters and interceptors have two or four lasers, so the same as their rebel counterparts. But they have no missiles or torpedoes, which all rebel fighters do. So unless we imagine based on nothing that their lasers are better than rebel lasers in some way, they are less armed. The bombers have more weapons, of course they do, but nothing really implies they are more or less armed than Y-wings.

And "lots of them" does not make them less lovely. In fact it implies the opposite, that they have to compensate for lower quality by fielding greater numbers.

Maybe saying "they are lovely" is a lot but imo just a basic assessment of "these are the features of the ships" strongly implies that rebel fighters are generally better on a 1-1 basis. I don't see how you can compare "X-wing has lasers, torpedoes, shields, and hyperdrive" to "TIE has lasers... and supposedly is a little faster" and think they are equivalent. That's why games always have to give TIE a bunch of extra stuff if you are expected to actually play as them. Or in the case of the actual "TIE Fighter" game, make it the lovely starter ship you fly for your early missions before you get to use the cool ships.

Quantity has a quality all its own. And Tie Fighters did get retrofitted with shields and missiles at various points. The First Order tie fighter is the equal if not superior to the T-70 X Wings used by the Resistance. It has warheads, a rear gunner and shields.

In A New Hope the Ties manages to gain on Luke while he and Biggs were flying at full throttle down the trench, so they're at least as fast if not faster than an X Wing going at max velocity.

And the lighter armament isn't that much of a hindrance when we see that one good burst on target is enough to splash just about any fighter. To make a real world comparison, the F4F wildcat was the us Navy's frontline fighter during early WW2. It wasn't as fast as a Zero and it wasn't as well armed as a Zero, but it managed to go head to head and hold its ground. Later models had more guns but pilots didn't like them as much, with I believe either Thatch or Jaeger saying "if you can't kill a target with four guns you won't do it with six either". They were put on escort carriers as the much stronger Hellcat entered service but the wildcat remained a formidable plane in the right hands.

And on the matter of right hands, tie fighter pilots are hilariously suicidal. It's one thing for a hero protagonist to pull off bullshit maneuvers, but you have to give note to the psychopaths who willingly follow them into asteroid fields or through caves and wreckage with no obvious exit.

The imperial Navy suffered more problems due to manpower demands leading to mediocre pilots rather than poor equipment. In the right hands a standard tie was a match for any rebel starfighter short of an A-Wing. And they made up lack of skill with numbers and suicidal overconfidence. You could become an ace in a day and the sixth tie still gets you.

# ? Jun 17, 2020 21:08

Julius CSAR: Oct 3, 2007; by sebmojo

Arcsquad12 posted:

And the lighter armament isn't that much of a hindrance when we see that one good burst on target is enough to splash just about any fighter. To make a real world comparison, the F4F wildcat was the us Navy's frontline fighter during early WW2. It wasn't as fast as a Zero and it wasn't as well armed as a Zero, but it managed to go head to head and hold its ground. Later models had more guns but pilots didn't like them as much, with I believe either Thatch or Jaeger saying "if you can't kill a target with four guns you won't do it with six either". They were put on escort carriers as the much stronger Hellcat entered service but the wildcat remained a formidable plane in the right hands.

Uhhhh... not really. It could out-dive the Zero, but pretty much the only reason Wildcats were at all successful against the INJAS fighters is because in the US military air combat is a team sport. One on one the Wildcat is inferior to the Zero in basically every category except dive rate and armor.

# ? Jun 17, 2020 21:18

jarlywarly: Aug 31, 2018

Arcsquad12 posted:

Quantity has a quality all its own. And Tie Fighters did get retrofitted with shields and missiles at various points. The First Order tie fighter is the equal if not superior to the T-70 X Wings used by the Resistance. It has warheads, a rear gunner and shields.

In A New Hope the Ties manages to gain on Luke while he and Biggs were flying at full throttle down the trench, so they're at least as fast if not faster than an X Wing going at max velocity.

And the lighter armament isn't that much of a hindrance when we see that one good burst on target is enough to splash just about any fighter. To make a real world comparison, the F4F wildcat was the us Navy's frontline fighter during early WW2. It wasn't as fast as a Zero and it wasn't as well armed as a Zero, but it managed to go head to head and hold its ground. Later models had more guns but pilots didn't like them as much, with I believe either Thatch or Jaeger saying "if you can't kill a target with four guns you won't do it with six either". They were put on escort carriers as the much stronger Hellcat entered service but the wildcat remained a formidable plane in the right hands.

And on the matter of right hands, tie fighter pilots are hilariously suicidal. It's one thing for a hero protagonist to pull off bullshit maneuvers, but you have to give note to the psychopaths who willingly follow them into asteroid fields or through caves and wreckage with no obvious exit.

The imperial Navy suffered more problems due to manpower demands leading to mediocre pilots rather than poor equipment. In the right hands a standard tie was a match for any rebel starfighter short of an A-Wing. And they made up lack of skill with numbers and suicidal overconfidence. You could become an ace in a day and the sixth tie still gets you.

Which is great in the real world or a movie, but in a 5v5 MP game you need balanced combat. TIE pilots in movies probably face punishment/execution for not following heroes into asteroid fields etc. But 5 players of game are going to expect balance against the other 5 players in a game. It makes it a little difficult to maintain the "flavour" of the lore and have still a balanced game.

Battlefield has some hilarious asymmetry, tank/infantry/helicopter but it balances out with larger player numbers and objective based game play and the ability to pick kits/fast repspawn and enter vehicles at will.

# ? Jun 17, 2020 21:20

Arc Hammer: Mar 4, 2013; Got any deathsticks?

Julius CSAR posted:

Uhhhh... not really. It could out-dive the Zero, but pretty much the only reason Wildcats were at all successful against the INJAS fighters is because in the US military air combat is a team sport. One on one the Wildcat is inferior to the Zero in basically every category except dive rate and armor.

Well then maybe a better comparison would be a Zaku against a GM in Gundam? The GM is a superior machine in armament and armour but still took heavy casualties against Zaku pilots whose suits were outdated by December.

My point is that you really can't dismiss the tie fighter out of hand even when it comes to game balance. It's a well designed ship that is lethal in the right hands when the pilot uses it's limitations to its advantage.

How this will be balanced in Squadrons, I don't know. But I disagree that it is the useless cannon fodder it's always made out to be in Legends.

# ? Jun 17, 2020 21:26

PunkBoy: Aug 22, 2008; You wanna get through this?

PhotoKirk posted:

I just want my missile boat.

Jose Oquendo posted:

Have those been re-introduced into the CANON?

TIE Defenders have, but I doubt we'll see them.

The Assault Guboat/Star Wing would be a deep cut that I would greatly appreciate, but it would definitely put a hamper on my hope for non-missile focused combat.

Lots of stuff from the old EU has been introduced to the new canon though, so there's definitely a chance of it appearing one day.

# ? Jun 17, 2020 21:27

Meme Poker Party: Sep 1, 2006; by Azathoth

Arcsquad12 posted:

Well then maybe a better comparison would be a Zaku against a GM in Gundam? The GM is a superior machine in armament and armour but still took heavy casualties against Zaku pilots whose suits were outdated by December.

My point is that you really can't dismiss the tie fighter out of hand even when it comes to game balance.

Oh my god lol

# ? Jun 17, 2020 21:28

Acebuckeye13: Nov 2, 2010; If you or someone you know has a gambling problem, crisis counseling and referral services can be accessed by calling
1-800-GAMBLER; Ultra Carp

Jose Oquendo posted:

Have those been re-introduced into the CANON?

TIE Defenders have, but I doubt we'll see them.

My hope/guess is that the TIE Defender will be released as DLC alongside the B-Wing.

Julius CSAR posted:

Uhhhh... not really. It could out-dive the Zero, but pretty much the only reason Wildcats were at all successful against the INJAS fighters is because in the US military air combat is a team sport. One on one the Wildcat is inferior to the Zero in basically every category except dive rate and armor.

The Wildcat was a fine fighter, yes it wasn't as fast or maneuverable but that dive rate and armor weren't nothing�especially given that the vast distances of the Pacific meant that features like self-sealing fuel tanks (Which the Wildcat had and the Zero didn't) could make the difference between making it back to your carrier and getting lost at sea. It wasn't for nothing that over the course of the war the Wildcat would reportedly take down nearly seven enemy aircraft for every friendly loss.

e: also the four fifty cals on the Wildcat was an ideal armament for fighting against Japanese aircraft, as they could carry ammo for days and even a brief burst could take down most lightly-armored Japanese aircraft. The Zero on paper was more heavily armed, but they couldn't carry a huge number of cannon rounds and the 7.7mm MGs were extremely inadequate against Wildcats and other heavily armored American aircraft.

Acebuckeye13 fucked around with this message at 21:31 on Jun 17, 2020

# ? Jun 17, 2020 21:29

Popete: Oct 6, 2009; This will make sure you don't suggest to the KDz
That he should grow greens instead of crushing on MCs; Grimey Drawer

I'm not sure why people are worried about balance. They can find a way to do it regardless of what some old EU book once said. They'll figure out a way to get around no shields.

# ? Jun 17, 2020 21:30

jivjov: Sep 13, 2007; But how does it taste? Yummy!; Dinosaur Gum

Jose Oquendo posted:

Have those been re-introduced into the CANON?

TIE Defenders have, but I doubt we'll see them.

Really hoping that the Defender and the B-Wing get added as post launch DLC. That'll let 5v5 multiplier have unique ships for all pilots

# ? Jun 17, 2020 21:30

Julius CSAR: Oct 3, 2007; by sebmojo

Dude was specifically talking about the early part of the war when the Japanese still had lots of competent pilots. Even the best fighters aren�t very good when the people flying them are ill trained teenagers.

But the point about the self sealing fuel tanks is huge, yeah.

# ? Jun 17, 2020 21:31

Acebuckeye13: Nov 2, 2010; If you or someone you know has a gambling problem, crisis counseling and referral services can be accessed by calling
1-800-GAMBLER; Ultra Carp

Julius CSAR posted:

Dude was specifically talking about the early part of the war when the Japanese still had lots of competent pilots. Even the best fighters aren�t very good when the people flying them are ill trained teenagers.

But the point about the self sealing fuel tanks is huge, yeah.

According to ~wikipedia~ (yes I know) the kill ratio was still 5.9-1 in 1942, which is pretty significant. Also, to quote my edit:

Acebuckeye13 posted:

e: also the four fifty cals on the Wildcat was an ideal armament for fighting against Japanese aircraft, as they could carry ammo for days and even a brief burst could take down most lightly-armored Japanese aircraft. The Zero on paper was more heavily armed, but they couldn't carry a huge number of cannon rounds and the 7.7mm MGs were extremely inadequate against Wildcats and other heavily armored American aircraft.

# ? Jun 17, 2020 21:33

Arc Hammer: Mar 4, 2013; Got any deathsticks?

Chomp8645 posted:

Oh my god lol

Would you rather I try to draw on another real life comparison for the Tie Fighter? I can keep going. I will dig this hole.

# ? Jun 17, 2020 21:34

Acebuckeye13: Nov 2, 2010; If you or someone you know has a gambling problem, crisis counseling and referral services can be accessed by calling
1-800-GAMBLER; Ultra Carp

this thread is now exclusively for arguing which fighters are better, both fictional and otherwise

# ? Jun 17, 2020 21:35

Arc Hammer: Mar 4, 2013; Got any deathsticks?

Rather than looking at larger issues such as manufacturing, training and the ill-considered notion of the Wunderwaffe.

# ? Jun 17, 2020 21:36

Eej: Jun 17, 2007; HEAVYARMS

TIE Interceptors aren't going to get shields when there's literally a shot of the cockpit with just E and L meters.

Hand wringing about asymmetrical sides is dumb because someone flying a TIE Interceptor can 1v1 any equally skilled pilot in Rebel ship despite the lack of shields but they are so so weak to getting ganged up on, what's the point of bringing up a problem that didn't even exist 20 years ago

# ? Jun 17, 2020 21:38

Arc Hammer: Mar 4, 2013; Got any deathsticks?

Besides if we want to talk about the objectively best fighter it's the Tie Advanced/Avenger. But noooo, everyone wants to fly a Defender.

# ? Jun 17, 2020 21:40

Sombrerotron: Aug 1, 2004; Release my children! My hat is truly great and mighty.

PunkBoy posted:

The Assault Guboat/Star Wing would be a deep cut that I would greatly appreciate, but it would definitely put a hamper on my hope for non-missile focused combat.

Let's be fair here, in the games A-Wings always came with a decent complement of concussion missiles too - while not being so extensive as to make lasers redundant. Also, it's typically much more difficult to both get a lock on and successfully hit a human pilot than any fighter controlled by the computer. I don't think the Gunboat would have a huge impact on the dynamics. On the other hand, that fact that it's shielded and that it has both lasers and ion cannons encourage dogfighting and close-range attacks on larger vessels.

# ? Jun 17, 2020 21:44

Arc Hammer: Mar 4, 2013; Got any deathsticks?

Sombrerotron posted:

Let's be fair here, in the games A-Wings always came with a decent complement of concussion missiles too - while not being so extensive as to make lasers redundant. Also, it's typically much more difficult to both get a lock on and successfully hit a human pilot than any fighter controlled by the computer. I don't think the Gunboat would have a huge impact on the dynamics. On the other hand, that fact that it's shielded and that it has both lasers and ion cannons encourage dogfighting and close-range attacks on larger vessels.

Plus the Advanced and Gunboat flight combo was super effective. Avengers providing super fast fighter coverage let gunboats do their work and get in really close.

# ? Jun 17, 2020 21:46

PunkBoy: Aug 22, 2008; You wanna get through this?

Sombrerotron posted:

Let's be fair here, in the games A-Wings always came with a decent complement of concussion missiles too - while not being so extensive as to make lasers redundant. Also, it's typically much more difficult to both get a lock on and successfully hit a human pilot than any fighter controlled by the computer. I don't think the Gunboat would have a huge impact on the dynamics. On the other hand, that fact that it's shielded and that it has both lasers and ion cannons encourage dogfighting and close-range attacks on larger vessels.

Yeah, the A-Wings did come with a lot of missiles. Hopefully they aren't the end-all weapon in Squadrons. Give A-Wings the adjustable laser cannons as well.

# ? Jun 17, 2020 21:49

Jerkface: May 21, 2001; HOW DOES IT FEEL TO BE DEAD, MOTHERFUCKER?; Fallen Rib

Acebuckeye13 posted:

this thread is now exclusively for arguing which fighters are better, both fictional and otherwise

The Y-Wing is the ultimate space craft, and will destroy all comers. In Return of the Jedi it is shown chasing down & out maneuvering tie interceptors.

# ? Jun 17, 2020 21:56

Julius CSAR: Oct 3, 2007; by sebmojo

Speaking of Star Wars and WW2 aircraft

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4OZq-tlJTrU

# ? Jun 17, 2020 22:04

Acebuckeye13: Nov 2, 2010; If you or someone you know has a gambling problem, crisis counseling and referral services can be accessed by calling
1-800-GAMBLER; Ultra Carp

Jerkface posted:

The Y-Wing is the ultimate space craft, and will destroy all comers. In Return of the Jedi it is shown chasing down & out maneuvering tie interceptors.

# ? Jun 17, 2020 22:04

hhhat: Apr 29, 2008

my opinion of which ones are the best is entirely based on which ones look the coolest

so the obvious answer is A wings and Interceptors are the best

dont at me

# ? Jun 17, 2020 22:05

Madurai: Jun 26, 2012

Jerkface posted:

The Y-Wing is the ultimate space craft, and will destroy all comers. In Return of the Jedi it is shown chasing down & out maneuvering tie interceptors.

Well, chasing them down, anyway. It's role as "space F-105" still rules, though.

# ? Jun 17, 2020 22:05

Symetrique: Jan 2, 2013

Chomp8645 posted:

Oh my god lol

# ? Jun 17, 2020 22:24

Comrayn: Jul 22, 2008

I think the game looks cool and fun and I would like to play it please.

# ? Jun 17, 2020 22:26

Tom Guycot: Oct 15, 2008; Chief of Governors

jivjov posted:

Really hoping that the Defender and the B-Wing get added as post launch DLC. That'll let 5v5 multiplier have unique ships for all pilots

Yeah after they announced 5v5 but only 4 ships, it really seemed like they were either setting up for a surprise 5th vehicle each, either as a surprise before launch, or announced dlc after launch. Considering as well botht he b-wing and defender both got reintroduced in the new disney canon I can't think of anything else they would use but those 2.

I do wonder how they'll balance something like the defender without just making it flat out better in every respect.

# ? Jun 17, 2020 22:41

DEEP STATE PLOT: Aug 13, 2008; Yes...Ha ha ha...YES!

Popete posted:

I'm not sure why people are worried about balance. They can find a way to do it regardless of what some old EU book once said. They'll figure out a way to get around no shields.

buy a pack of up to 100 (best value!) shield boosters for your tie fighter so it can be balanced against x-wings

-ea, probably

# ? Jun 17, 2020 22:46

hhhat: Apr 29, 2008

i mean if its popular they can throw a bunch of things in there, if nothing else EA has tonnes of assets

I am expecting john williams soundtrack by default when i am flying around

# ? Jun 17, 2020 22:48

Alchenar: Apr 9, 2008

Real talk for a moment: in X-wing v Tie Fighter there was an immediate obvious disadvantage to not having a shield, which was that attempting a head on attack was obvious suicide. Given that's literally the default starting engagement the Imperial ships have to be broadly as durable as the Rebel ships or the game is going to be extremely one sided.

# ? Jun 17, 2020 22:50

PunkBoy: Aug 22, 2008; You wanna get through this?

The Y-Wing is the workhorse of the Rebel fleet.

# ? Jun 17, 2020 22:52

Arc Hammer: Mar 4, 2013; Got any deathsticks?

PunkBoy posted:

The Y-Wing is the workhorse of the Rebel fleet.

Yeah but what about that YT-1300 freighter? I don't know where this poo poo came from...

Rogue squadron was fun

# ? Jun 17, 2020 22:57

Julius CSAR: Oct 3, 2007; by sebmojo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iec-otO4VPQ

# ? Jun 17, 2020 23:07

Meme Poker Party: Sep 1, 2006; by Azathoth

Alchenar posted:

Real talk for a moment: in X-wing v Tie Fighter there was an immediate obvious disadvantage to not having a shield, which was that attempting a head on attack was obvious suicide. Given that's literally the default starting engagement the Imperial ships have to be broadly as durable as the Rebel ships or the game is going to be extremely one sided.

Excuse but are you familiar with Gundam Tactics in the December War?????

# ? Jun 17, 2020 23:23

Insert name here: Nov 10, 2009; Oh.
Oh Dear.

Jerkface posted:

The Y-Wing is the ultimate space craft, and will destroy all comers. In Return of the Jedi it is shown chasing down & out maneuvering tie interceptors.

Hell yeah where my Y-Wing homies at

Z-95 bros can come chill too

# ? Jun 17, 2020 23:40

Alchenar: Apr 9, 2008

Ion cannoning people in pvp and then leaving their totally disabled fighter and refusing to kill them was some excellent early trolling I learned.

# ? Jun 17, 2020 23:56

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# ? Apr 29, 2024 14:10

Arc Hammer: Mar 4, 2013; Got any deathsticks?

Chomp8645 posted:

Excuse but are you familiar with Gundam Tactics in the December War?????

Furthermore Gelgoogs might have been one of the highest performance suits in December 0079 but they were let down by a lack of train pilots and therefore

# ? Jun 17, 2020 23:56

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