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VanSandman posted:Legalism is a scum philosophy for bootlickers.
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Jun 21, 2020 11:44
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Judge Dredd Scott posted:trying to moderate all of discord is like trying to moderate all of irc. it makes absolutely zero sense All of discord is controlled by one entity while all of IRC isn't. Plus I don't think discord monitors (or should monitor) private/direct messages, which would be the phone call analogy, just the channels and servers. Discord admins / staff already regularly randomly drop in to servers to see what they're about all the time, and people keep using it regardless, so I don't think it matters nearly as much as you think.
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Jun 21, 2020 12:17
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Shame Boy posted:All of discord is controlled by one entity while all of IRC isn't. Plus I don't think discord monitors (or should monitor) private/direct messages, which would be the phone call analogy, just the channels and servers. Discord admins / staff already regularly randomly drop in to servers to see what they're about all the time, and people keep using it regardless, so I don't think it matters nearly as much as you think. Would you really expect Quakenet to police all their IRC channels? There's no fundamental difference. It's simply impossible.
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Jun 21, 2020 12:25
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police need a wiretap to listen to a phone call, but they regularly randomly drop into places to see what they're about all the time, and yet precincts are burning in america. people don't actually want their poo poo snooped on.
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Jun 21, 2020 12:25
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bike tory posted:I'm not a computer toucher by trade or anything but I'm pretty sure it's a shitload easier to train algorithms on text than it is on images or video it’s not an issue of format. training on video versus text is mostly just a matter of more/bigger computers, which isn’t a material barrier to even a company of Discord’s modest size. it’s an issue of “closely matches the form of this exact thing that is long, even when excerpted” versus “matches the meaning of these sentiments, expressed in disjoint short statements, via language that evolves rapidly and can easily be obfuscated”. I’ve worked with very-well-resourced researchers who are making meaningful progress on this exact issue of hate detection in short-form text, and they will all tell you that image and waveform detection is a piece of cake in comparison. effective ML to detect hate speech would be an operational and financial boon to a number of very large companies, and I have some hope that we’ll see at least pre-AlexNet-image-stuff performance on the task in the next few years, but it’s definitely not a problem with a clear solution. multiple companies have teams which are, I suspect, larger than the whole of Discord Inc working on this space now.
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Jun 21, 2020 13:29
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Fame Douglas posted:Would you really expect Quakenet to police all their IRC channels? There's no fundamental difference. It's simply impossible. Not with 1997 processing power, yes with 2020 processing power.
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Jun 21, 2020 13:32
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Fame Douglas posted:Would you really expect Quakenet to police all their IRC channels? There's no fundamental difference. It's simply impossible. I'd expect them to randomly drop in to make sure they're not full of nazi child porn rings or w/e from time to time, yes. Speaking as someone who modded a fairly big channel on a pretty big network for like 10 years, admins did in fact do that occasionally 
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Jun 21, 2020 13:35
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building robots to police speech rather than subjugating the wealthy smh
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Jun 21, 2020 13:36
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Subjunctive posted:the copyright problem is a fair bit easier than shutting down the Proud Boys discord without also nuking Emily’s or whoever’s anti-racist groups, and still has a terrible rate of false positives _and_ negatives no, it won't, because then things will be reliant on unpaid volunteers hunting through the internet to find publicly posted links to Nazi discords, which is not a particularly thorough method. in order to find offensive content, social media relies heavily on reports from people who don't like that offensive content, which is fundamentally difficult in a system specifically designed to silo content so that people can easily surround themselves with only things they like to see social media companies have deliberately removed as much human review as possible because they get more growth and better advertising metrics when they make it as easy and smooth as possible for people to post content and create groups. this also creates the bonus problem that focusing so heavily on increasing the number of users and posts at all costs guarantees that any human review systems will never be able to catch up although I should note that for all this "but it's hard" stuff, social media companies don't appear to have much trouble removing stuff that might get them in trouble with governments, such as pro-ISIS posts. for instance, Facebook once claimed they could remove 83% of pro-ISIS propaganda within an hour of it being posted, thanks to an AI model they've trained specifically on ISIS propaganda, as well as an aggressive approach that flags all of an account's friends and groups and connections for the highest level of scrutiny as soon as it becomes associated with terrorist content hell, even when it comes to white supremacists and hate speech, social media companies often exaggerate how much trouble they have dealing with them, because they seem to have a lot less trouble removing them for German users! https://mobile.twitter.com/Hadas_Gold/status/937757138381955073
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Jun 21, 2020 14:26
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IAMKOREA posted:We just use indoor drying racks in Europe in the winter, IKEA sells them for a few dollars. My house has bad humidity problems in winter though and I would kill for a good dryer. You can't buy the air dryers they have in the US here, only condenser models are available and they loving suck, they leave clothes so wrinkled that they are unwearable (even for a guy like me who doesn't give a poo poo). Do you have room for a drying cabinet? They absolutely loving rock.  
Megillah Gorilla has issued a correction as of 15:07 on Jun 21, 2020 |
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Jun 21, 2020 15:01
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Judge Dredd Scott posted:also i don't know anybody who would willingly use an instant messaging service that was actively monitored by an algorithm or *anything* for that matter lol. nobody's asking AT&T to listen to all phone calls is an appropriate analogy, i think you'd better sit down, i have some bad news about what's been going on the past 20 years
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Jun 21, 2020 15:12
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the milk machine posted:you'd better sit down, i have some bad news about what's been going on the past 20 years are you telling me my icq logs aren't safe
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Jun 21, 2020 15:20
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Zvahl posted:are you telling me my icq logs aren't safe I SEEK YOU 
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Jun 21, 2020 16:18
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hell yeah this panopticon is totally going to be used to destroy fascists and racists *panopticon is immediately used to destroy the enemies of capital exclusively*
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Jun 21, 2020 16:27
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Failed Sega Accessory Ahoy!
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Kitfox88 posted:I
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Jun 21, 2020 16:28
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Main Paineframe posted:no, it won't, because then things will be reliant on unpaid volunteers hunting through the internet to find publicly posted links to Nazi discords, which is not a particularly thorough method. in order to find offensive content, social media relies heavily on reports from people who don't like that offensive content, which is fundamentally difficult in a system specifically designed to silo content so that people can easily surround themselves with only things they like to see twitter has already said they don't automatically do any sort of filtering of white supremacist content because it flags too many politicians and their goal is to remain unregulated
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Jun 21, 2020 17:19
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Subjunctive posted:it’s not an issue of format. training on video versus text is mostly just a matter of more/bigger computers, which isn’t a material barrier to even a company of Discord’s modest size. it’s an issue of “closely matches the form of this exact thing that is long, even when excerpted” versus “matches the meaning of these sentiments, expressed in disjoint short statements, via language that evolves rapidly and can easily be obfuscated”. I’ve worked with very-well-resourced researchers who are making meaningful progress on this exact issue of hate detection in short-form text, and they will all tell you that image and waveform detection is a piece of cake in comparison. Literally all you'd need is a bot that flagged channels when the percent of certain words hit a certain threshold, and for a human mod to then drop in and review the channel. I guess they'd need to keep the list of hate words updated but that wouldn't be particularly challenging. I'm not talking about having an AI that polices everything that's said effectively and automatically bans specific racists in every channel of every server. Just about having something that can detect the servers that white supremacists use to hang out and organise, and banning those servers and the users involved. This is basically what they already do, except they rely on user reports rather than having a bot that trawls through. It also wouldn't be perfect but the point isn't to eradicate 100% of hate speech, just to make the platform difficult for nazis to use so that they'll move somewhere else for their organising.
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Jun 21, 2020 18:54
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https://twitter.com/Newsweek/status/1274129201025757185
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Jun 21, 2020 19:08
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bike tory posted:Literally all you'd need is a bot that flagged channels when the percent of certain words hit a certain threshold, and for a human mod to then drop in and review the channel. I guess they'd need to keep the list of hate words updated but that wouldn't be particularly challenging. racism isn’t a technology problem, just look at how these forums react every time the mods try to do anything, posts like these make me uncomfortable because they seem to imply you can completely ignore politics
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Jun 21, 2020 19:14
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bike tory posted:It also wouldn't be perfect but the point isn't to eradicate 100% of hate speech, just to make the platform difficult for nazis to use so that they'll move somewhere else for their organising. why is it better for them to use a different platform? I mean, I get that it’s less stress and brand risk for Discord as a company, but why is it better for the subjects of hate for their persecutors to be using ICB or ntalk than discord? It can only be a matter of time before they realize that they want E2E more than they want the fancy roles and bits that they get on Discord anyway. Main Paineframe posted:although I should note that for all this "but it's hard" stuff, social media companies don't appear to have much trouble removing stuff that might get them in trouble with governments, such as pro-ISIS posts. for instance, Facebook once claimed they could remove 83% of pro-ISIS propaganda within an hour of it being posted, thanks to an AI model they've trained specifically on ISIS propaganda, as well as an aggressive approach that flags all of an account's friends and groups and connections for the highest level of scrutiny as soon as it becomes associated with terrorist content I’m trying to find the paper about the ISIS detection stuff, but it might not have been published after all. I’ll ask if there’s a pre-print floating around. Propaganda for a single organization is much more like copyright targets in that it’s designed to be published widely and has consistent structure and content, versus low-volume private conversation that supports hate. I’m not sure how having such a system with a 15% failure rate meaningfully reduces their exposure to any legal risk, but I’ll take your word for it; government involvement was never part of any discussions I had around unwanted content except for CEI. If there were as much and varied ISIS content as there is hate content, the enforcement around ISIS would be much less effective, I think.
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Jun 21, 2020 20:23
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One reliable way to create new jobs is to kill people working the jobs.
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Jun 21, 2020 20:37
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SpacePig posted:One reliable way to create new jobs is to kill people working the jobs. every newly-graduating librarian in the last 5 years has considered it, I think
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Jun 21, 2020 20:37
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Subjunctive posted:why is it better for them to use a different platform? I mean, I get that it’s less stress and brand risk for Discord as a company, but why is it better for the subjects of hate for their persecutors to be using ICB or ntalk than discord? It can only be a matter of time before they realize that they want E2E more than they want the fancy roles and bits that they get on Discord anyway. From a practical standpoint it's a hell of a lot easier to get going with Discord. For example literally everyone I know around my age has a Discord account, but only one of my friends uses Signal, so if I were to start a Pepe The Frog's Fun Time Hitler Extravaganza group or w/e I know which service I'd prefer to use for maximum effect. Like you're never going to eliminate the fash ability to communicate but pushing them out of popular easy to use platforms isn't nothing either.
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Jun 21, 2020 20:51
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Anyway I'm bored and reading a bunch of labor history stuff lately, so let's play Guess That Employer Based On Their Workers' Demands: - Stop hiring through sub-contractors - Insurance coverage - Proper compensation for accidents on the job - Abolish payment via coupons and company scrip rather than money - Improvement of on the job health services - Recognition as employees Are you thinking Amazon maybe? Good call! It's the United Fruit Company workers strike in 1928, which took place near the Amazon rainforest! Shame Boy has issued a correction as of 21:08 on Jun 21, 2020 |
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Jun 21, 2020 21:05
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I was going to guess instacart or some clone
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Jun 21, 2020 21:45
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Subjunctive posted:every newly-graduating librarian in the last 5 years has considered it, I think Places still employ librarians?
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Jun 21, 2020 22:15
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Megillah Gorilla posted:Do you have room for a drying cabinet? They absolutely loving rock. Mines a bit bigger than that*.  * clothes will smell a bit smokey
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Jun 21, 2020 22:20
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AvesPKS posted:Places still employ librarians? Some libraries, even
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Jun 21, 2020 22:24
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Subjunctive posted:why is it better for them to use a different platform? I mean, I get that it’s less stress and brand risk for Discord as a company, but why is it better for the subjects of hate for their persecutors to be using ICB or ntalk than discord? It can only be a matter of time before they realize that they want E2E more than they want the fancy roles and bits that they get on Discord anyway. It's mostly this: Shame Boy posted:From a practical standpoint it's a hell of a lot easier to get going with Discord. For example literally everyone I know around my age has a Discord account, but only one of my friends uses Signal, so if I were to start a Pepe The Frog's Fun Time Hitler Extravaganza group or w/e I know which service I'd prefer to use for maximum effect. Like you're never going to eliminate the fash ability to communicate but pushing them out of popular easy to use platforms isn't nothing either. Pushing them off discord isn't going to destroy the fash, or stop them organising or anything. But trying to make popular platforms fash free is a good goal. It's a shitload easier for them to recruit and they'll form much larger communities on a service like Discord that already has 300m users compared to a niche E2E encrypted service where someone would have to download an app, make an account and receive an individual invite.
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Jun 21, 2020 22:40
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plus using the Nazi communicator is an instant out like being on Gab or Voat
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Jun 21, 2020 22:50
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Subjunctive posted:I’m trying to find the paper about the ISIS detection stuff, but it might not have been published after all. I’ll ask if there’s a pre-print floating around. Propaganda for a single organization is much more like copyright targets in that it’s designed to be published widely and has consistent structure and content, versus low-volume private conversation that supports hate. I’m not sure how having such a system with a 15% failure rate meaningfully reduces their exposure to any legal risk, but I’ll take your word for it; government involvement was never part of any discussions I had around unwanted content except for CEI. as long as the failures come in the form of false positives rather than false negatives, i don't think they care. just look at how over-aggressive sites are about copyright stuff. pleasing governments is heavily prioritized over pleasing users and there's a shithead of actual white nationalist propaganda out there. what people are really concerned about isn't random nobodies posting random racist crap, it's the white supremacist leaders and organizations growing and expanding their movements on these sites
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Jun 21, 2020 23:06
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Main Paineframe posted:as long as the failures come in the form of false positives rather than false negatives, i don't think they care. just look at how over-aggressive sites are about copyright stuff. pleasing governments is heavily prioritized over pleasing users I love that someone joevatared you.
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Jun 21, 2020 23:13
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i have a radical new idea for how to combat nazis on social media don't have nazis and stomp that poo poo out IRL, with a boot, in minecraft
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Jun 21, 2020 23:26
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T-man posted:i have a radical new idea for how to combat nazis on social media woah hey now lets not be hasty the nazis are very fine individuals whos freedom of speech we need to protect after all without the nazis we wouldn't have rockets or the best top cover of any machine gun or snazzy uniforms!
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Jun 21, 2020 23:32
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Tashilicious posted:woah hey now lets not be hasty the nazis are very fine individuals whos freedom of speech we need to protect after all without the nazis we wouldn't have rockets or the best top cover of any machine gun or snazzy uniforms! Goddard could have gotten us to the moon if the government wasn't so intent on ignoring him for most of his career  Also if he hadn't died in 1945 but still.
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Jun 21, 2020 23:44
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Shame Boy posted:Goddard could have gotten us to the moon if the government wasn't so intent on ignoring him for most of his career A lot of people could have done a lot of things for us. Unfortunately, most of them are ground into blood to fuel the machine.
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Jun 22, 2020 00:04
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“This machine thrills fascists”
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Jun 22, 2020 01:19
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bike tory posted:Literally all you'd need is a bot that flagged channels when the percent of certain words hit a certain threshold, and for a human mod to then drop in and review the channel. I guess they'd need to keep the list of hate words updated but that wouldn't be particularly challenging. The chance for abuse within this theoretical system is ridiculous doesn't take a lot for a bot designed to flag servers with high volumes of racial slurs/violent threats to flag servers where 'union' and 'strike' are used a lot really dont understand this urge/desire to build a panopticon for the modern version of AOL Instant Messenger
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Jun 22, 2020 02:39
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Judge Dredd Scott posted:doesn't take a lot for a bot designed to flag servers with high volumes of racial slurs/violent threats to flag servers where 'union' and 'strike' are used a lot https://theintercept.com/2020/06/11/facebook-workplace-unionize/ our options right now, for the immediate future at least are: 1) dystopian panopticon that's used primarily against the left 2) dystopian panopticon used against the left and the extreme right pushing for 2 because it's better than 1 doesn't necessarily mean support for dystopian panopticons, it's just our least worst option until the left can seize the state
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Jun 22, 2020 02:44
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nexous posted:highly compensated employees can only contribute around the same amount as the average employee, which is generally very low. Yeah but he's only putting $4,500 a year into it. That's absurdly low for his supposed income.
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Jun 22, 2020 02:49
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