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I mean, in Sister Act the nuns go out and paint that car and then sing a bunch. Same thing just with dudes and larger guns? E: Less flip, there are secular orders of monks.
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Jun 21, 2020 22:53
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A better real-world historical analogy for space marines would be the military orders (knights Templar, hospitallers, etc)
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Jun 21, 2020 23:06
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Space Marines are more overtly translations of militant orders than cenobitic or eremetic orders. Hell, the Black Templars logo is basically just a color inversion of one of the flags for the Hospitallers. Obviously there aren't going to be a playable army that's based on cenobites or hermits on account of those being explicitly pacifists, and the game itself isn't really an open RPG it's a wargame. It's a fair cop to compare Space Marines to monks, the text very much invites that. (aside, historical militant orders did tend to allow women in, though AFAIK entirely in noncombat roles).
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Jun 21, 2020 23:14
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Sisters literally have Hospitalars as their medics.
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Jun 21, 2020 23:46
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Tulip posted:Obviously there aren't going to be a playable army that's based on cenobites or hermits on account of those being explicitly pacifists Admech are hermetic monks! Ministorum are cenobitic monks! I was setting aside the pacifism in generally because well duh, but there are Imperial monks in 40K. There are two different space marine factions that are aesthetically loosely based on military orders, and the Germanic crusader stuff is just the Imperium all over, but space marines in general are just knights, without the monasticism of religious military orders. There's a 40K army that's structured like and behaves somewhat like the Knights Templar or Hospitallier, but it's Sisters of Battle. They're devoted monastic knights supported by a broader laity, who serve and preach to that community. It's 40K, so "serve" is less "treat their wounds and illness" and more "purge the xeno infiltrators with napalm", but the model holds. Space marines aren't clergy. Nothing about how they function or look says that their actions are meant as dedications to a faith, and nothing about them makes it obvious how they practice their faith. They are simply very well-equipped, highly-skilled soldiers. Look at the actual Imperial clergy units to see how this could be illustrated without one word of flavor text. Sisters of Battle are the most obvious example, especially in later iterations. Many of their weapons obviously double as objects of devotion, and the styling of their armor is explicitly religious in both the sense that it evokes Christian theology and in the sense that it is stylized to exhibit their devotion to their order and their devotion to the Emperor. Seraphim with eagle-winged jump packs hits that sort of double-coding: they look like angels and eagle wings seem appropriate to express devotion to the Emperor whose icon is an eagle. "Pray to the Emperor for a blessing" has always been an explicit verb Sisters can do in the course of a game. They're also situated within a community they preach to, they both mechanically inspire that community and have the sorts of weapons that would inspire holy terror in that community. You can just look at a fully-assembled Sisters army with a good cross-section of all of their units and pick all of this up. Adeptus Ministorum are monks but have a lot of the same qualities. Their equipment is all reliquaries and holy books, their models are all posed to be yelling, and their game function is to be attached to secular Imperial units in order to whip them into a fervor. Plus, they all have tonsures and plain robes, it's not subtle. Adeptus Mechanicus are ascetic monks. They are all wizened and pale, like cloistered academics. They dress relatively simply and uniformly, even if it is to form a contrast with their weird, ornate bionics. Their units all have explicitly clerical names, and are carrying painstakingly transcribed texts. Much of their equipment is intentionally resembles ornate reliquaries, again forming a sharp contrast with their simple, uniform dress. Their role is obvious: they preserve and protect all of this weird crap. They have a bit of a cloistered wizard vibe, too, but that's offset by the fact that most factions do get actual wizards but they don't. In all of this, I am still setting aside Dark Angels and Black Templars. They are visibly clerical in a lot of ways.
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Jun 21, 2020 23:50
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Cease to Hope posted:Space marines aren't monks. Nothing about their aesthetic resembles monks in any way. Mechanicus are monks, dark angels are monks, ministorum are monks, but space marines are mainly chunky supersoldiers. You don't appear to be even vaguely familiar with 40k space marines.
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Jun 21, 2020 23:54
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Tulip posted:This has reminded me of one of my favorite goonhammer quotes the combat doctrines nerf came down mere weeks after the new Dark Angels stuff and it hit them particularly hard a real cock punch
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Jun 21, 2020 23:54
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Filthy Hans posted:the combat doctrines nerf came down mere weeks after the new Dark Angels stuff and it hit them particularly hard Good.
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Jun 21, 2020 23:56
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Lovely Joe Stalin posted:You don't appear to be even vaguely familiar with 40k space marines. I assure you that I am intimately familiar with the details of Warhammer 40,000 space marine lore. I just hold it in all complete contempt, which makes it easy to see the ways it's disconnected from the actual space marine miniatures line and from the rules of the various Codices: Space Marines in older editions. If things have changed in 8th edition to make marines more religious mechanically, I'd be fascinated to hear about that. e: Speaking of which, one counterexample:  This is obviously an object of devotion. The old dreadnaughts always just looked like really chunky robots (and the newer ones, like the primaris and contemptor dreads, still do, even though I appreciate the contemptor's throwback to the old grinning dreadnaughts), but this is the only dreadnaught I've seen that actually looks like a walking grave. Cease to Hope fucked around with this message at 00:21 on Jun 22, 2020 |
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Jun 22, 2020 00:11
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Cease to Hope posted:I assure you that I am intimately familiar with the details of Warhammer 40,000 space marine lore. I just hold it in all complete contempt, which makes it easy to see the ways it's disconnected from the actual space marine miniatures line and from the rules of the various Codices: Space Marines in older editions. This is a pretty old dreadnought design and there's been various flavors of space marine wearing illuminated manuscripts on their armor since forever, even if half of them wear manuscripts of Evil. You can play both religious and monk-like marines and those not because marines can be everything for everybody. There's Norse marines, Mongol marines, and Egyptian marines, with various relationships to the Imperial creed, to name a few (the Norse marines as I recall are at near open war with the Inquisition). I don't think they generally resemble monks in their overall activity either, but they borrow monk-like attitudes in the same way the setting borrows liberally from everything.
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Jun 22, 2020 01:37
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Sodomy Hussein posted:You can play both religious and monk-like marines and those not because marines can be everything for everybody. There's Norse marines, Mongol marines, and Egyptian marines, [etc.] Yeah. That's why they aren't anything, so you can do your own individualistic take. The idea that the marines are all uplifted warrior cultures kicks rear end, and I love how the Ultramarines have gotten progressively more Roman too. I just don't see why the idea that the lore says they need to be hypertrophic mutant warrior-monks should be a limit. If the lore gets in the way of something cool, change the lore. It's not even the first time. I didn't know that venerable dread model was an older one! I don't remember it from when I played.
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Jun 22, 2020 02:45
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Cease to Hope posted:Yeah. That's why they aren't anything, so you can do your own individualistic take. The idea that the marines are all uplifted warrior cultures kicks rear end, and I love how the Ultramarines have gotten progressively more Roman too. I had to double-check how old it was to make sure I wasn't full of poo poo, but venerables date back to at least 5th edition (1996).
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Jun 22, 2020 04:17
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the psychic space marines being literally called 'librarians' and the part where they all (mostly all? it's been a while) devoutly follow a religious text called the codex astartes suggests there's something to this 'monk' thing. also a lot of them are bald and/or set wild bears on children, which is a pretty classically monk thing to do
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Jun 22, 2020 04:18
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Schadenboner posted:Also an literal 40k Zoat is being released in the next couple of weeks? Released yesterday. I have one in my grubby little hands.
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Jun 22, 2020 04:33
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Sodomy Hussein posted:I had to double-check how old it was to make sure I wasn't full of poo poo, but venerables date back to at least 5th edition (1996). The unit goes back to at least 3rd. I know they were a Space Wolf-specific unit back then, but I don't remember if they were on the Space Wolf army list before that. I can't speak with certainty. I do distinctly recall wondering what the difference between a venerable and a regular dreadnaught was supposed to be, since they're all supposed to be honored veterans, and I also recall wondering why only Space Wolves got veteran dreadnaughts. The model didn't exist back then, though. The venerable dreadnaught unit was a generic version of Bjorn the Fell-Handed, a Space Wolf character dreadnaught, and used the same model.  ungulateman posted:the psychic space marines being literally called 'librarians' and the part where they all (mostly all? it's been a while) devoutly follow a religious text called the codex astartes suggests there's something to this 'monk' thing. I don't get a real "monk" vibe out of this, although I guess I can see why someone could?  The "Codex Astartes" isn't something that comes out of the army list or the models, though. It's just part of the story about them being monks. And GW could just change that story. Cease to Hope fucked around with this message at 04:45 on Jun 22, 2020 |
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Jun 22, 2020 04:41
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ungulateman posted:the psychic space marines being literally called 'librarians' and the part where they all (mostly all? it's been a while) devoutly follow a religious text called the codex astartes suggests there's something to this 'monk' thing. They also pre-fix their ranks with Brother and have Chaplains leading them in battle prayers. But they aren't monks. Especially not the with all that pinning scripture and oaths to their armour, carrying religious relics, or when not at war having a monastic daily schedule of prayer and study. In their monasteries. Definitely  not  warrior  monks.
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Jun 22, 2020 04:45
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Lovely Joe Stalin posted:They also pre-fix their ranks with Brother and have Chaplains leading them in battle prayers. Those new models are neat, and definitely have a more religious vibe than the previous ones. They remind me a lot of the original Adeptus Ministorum line.  But monastic orders don't have chaplains by definition. A chaplain is the cleric attached to a lay or secular whole. Now, I realize nobody actually cares about this real pedantic argument, but it's an excuse to talk about old 40K poo poo some more. They're called space marine chaplains because they are a holdover from waaaaaaaaaaaaaay the gently caress back, back before all of this stuff about space marines being warrior-monks.  I don't know when these models first came out, but this is a picture from the 1989 Warhammer 40000 Compendium, which (as far as I know!) is the first book with all of the stuff about weird implanted organs and warrior monks and such. They already existed at that point. Some bonus cool old goofy poo poo  the original Marneus Calgar illustration  the original Marneus Calgar model, although I believe he wasn't named until the Compendium came out Cease to Hope fucked around with this message at 03:22 on Jul 19, 2020 |
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Jun 22, 2020 05:11
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Cease to Hope posted:The unit goes back to at least 3rd. I know they were a Space Wolf-specific unit back then, but I don't remember if they were on the Space Wolf army list before that. I can't speak with certainty. I believe the original thing about Bjorn was that they would wake him up once every thousand years to tell campfire stories from before the Heresy and then he would go back to sleep, and if you woke him up for an actual battle it would only be at the most dire need because he didn't have much mileage left.
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Jun 22, 2020 05:30
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Cease to Hope posted:Those new models are neat, and definitely have a more religious vibe than the previous ones. They remind me a lot of the original Adeptus Ministorum line. beaky mask best mask
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Jun 22, 2020 05:47
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Cease to Hope posted:The unit goes back to at least 3rd. I know they were a Space Wolf-specific unit back then, but I don't remember if they were on the Space Wolf army list before that. I can't speak with certainty. In the Space Wolves codex I have from back in whatever edition was current in 2000, the main difference between a Venerable Dreadnought and a normal Dreadnought were that you could only have 1 Venerable Dread, you could choose to take it as an HQ instead of an Elite, if the mission had a dice roll to see who got the first turn, the Venerable would allow you to re-roll it, and if it would take a glancing or penetrating hit, you could force your opponent to re-roll the damage, though you have to accept the results of the re-roll. +1 WS and +1 BS more than a standard Dreadnought, but an Armour Save of 3 as opposed to the standard Dreadnought's 2. In the Space Wolves codex I have from the 2009 edition of the game, Venerable Dreadnoughts couldn't be taken as HQ units anymore, and no longer allowed you to reroll to see who goes first. They retained the ability to force an opponent to re-roll damage on a glancing or penetrating hit against them, and you were no longer restricted to 1 per army as far as I can tell, though they cost 60 points more than a standard Dreadnought. Once again, +1 WS and +1 BS more than a standard Dreadnought, though both now have an Armour Save of 2.
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Jun 22, 2020 06:38
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Cease to Hope posted:Some bonus cool old goofy poo poo I still have that mini. It is very bad
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Jun 22, 2020 06:45
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Sodomy Hussein posted:(the Norse marines as I recall are at near open war with the Inquisition) Also, yeah, the Inquisition and the Space Wolves don't really get along too well. The Inquisition has a bad habit of deciding that "oh, hey, this regiment of Imperial Guard who have been fighting against the forces of Chaos now know too much about it and pose a substantial risk if they fall to the ruinous powers, looks like we gotta summarily execute them all just to be safe," and the Space Wolves have an equally bad habit of responding, "Uh, no, gently caress you, you back the gently caress off, our brothers-in-arms have fought loyally and honorably in the Emperor's name, and if you want to get to them, you gotta go through us first."
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Jun 22, 2020 06:59
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W.T. Fits posted:In the Space Wolves codex I have from back in whatever edition was current in 2000, the main difference between a Venerable Dreadnought and a normal Dreadnought were that you could only have 1 Venerable Dread, you could choose to take it as an HQ instead of an Elite, if the mission had a dice roll to see who got the first turn, the Venerable would allow you to re-roll it, and if it would take a glancing or penetrating hit, you could force your opponent to re-roll the damage, though you have to accept the results of the re-roll. +1 WS and +1 BS more than a standard Dreadnought, but an Armour Save of 3 as opposed to the standard Dreadnought's 2. This sounds like fourth or fifth? I forget which edition switched dreads from vehicle-style armor scores to toughness/wounds/armor saves.
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Jun 22, 2020 07:28
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Last I remember the running joke for Dreadnoughts was that they tend to attract a small country's worth of firepower in the first couple rounds. Anyone else remember Turn Signals On A Land Raider?
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Jun 22, 2020 07:54
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Schadenboner posted:Also an literal 40k Zoat is being released in the next couple of weeks? It's already out thanks to the post-pandemic release schedule on speed. efb due to second page.  Ghost Leviathan posted:Anyone else remember Turn Signals On A Land Raider? Yes, I'd hate to use the term but it really was the most boomer of 40k comics at times. Shame their relaunch on WarCom didn't last for that very long. Cooked Auto fucked around with this message at 14:38 on Jun 22, 2020 |
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Jun 22, 2020 14:33
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Cease to Hope posted:Malekith is Sauron, except for the parts where he's also kinda Darth Vader. Nagash is also Sauron, including the part where he is The Necromancer, but also including the fact that he even has his own One Ring, the Crown of Command. The High Elves and Wood Elves are all Silmarillion fanfic; their immortal patron lady of lost travelers is even named Ladrielle. The orc clans are a mix of influences but the entire idea of orcs and goblins owe to Tolkien, plus the militarism and industry and just general look of black orcs owes a lot to Tolkien and Tolkien illustrators. WHFB dwarves are almost entirely unchanged from Tolkien; I think the only really original addition is slayers. They have like four Morias! Jown Howe and Alan Lee are foundational to how basically everything in Warhammer Fantasy looks. Cease to Hope posted:Anyway you don't have to have an explanation like Age of Sigmar did where the whole universe gets blown up, either. You can just do the thing 40K did when it retconned in all this bizarre crap about space marines having implanted organs and hypertrophic superpuberty: just ignore all the stuff you wrote before that conflicts with it, don't make reference to that stuff, and smack anyone who asks about it on the nose with a rolled-up newspaper. Just dump all that dumb poo poo in the same hole they dumped zoats into. Cease to Hope posted:Space marines aren't clergy. Nothing about how they function or look says that their actions are meant as dedications to a faith, and nothing about them makes it obvious how they practice their faith. They are simply very well-equipped, highly-skilled soldiers. Look at the actual Imperial clergy units to see how this could be illustrated without one word of flavor text.
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Jun 22, 2020 15:18
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Cease to Hope posted:Admech are hermetic monks! Ministorum are cenobitic monks! I was setting aside the pacifism in generally because well duh, but there are Imperial monks in 40K. I don't agree with a lot of your objections, though with the Ministorum it's more a quibble that they seem closer to "common priesthood" than monks. With Admech I'd say the moment they went from "a background detail" to "a fully playable army on its own right" they become a militant order rather than a eremetic (the ascetic part is totally right, it's just not contradictory to for militant devotees to be ascetic and is pretty normal). That said, the "secular knight vs. holy warrior" divide is, with IRL Christendom (assuming we're mostly limiting ourselves to about 800-1500CE), a very messy one. The core values of "secular" knights were still largely Christian, and an ex communicado knight was in a hell of a lot of trouble. The thing that makes the divide between being a knight of a realm versus a member of a specifically militant order of the Church is the matter of specific loyalty: a 'regular' knight is a nobleman whose loyalty is a matter of the local nobility, and they participate in armies as retinues (and in retinues of retinues); a member of a militant order of the Church is much more specifically loyal to the Church/Pope above their local territory. This is of course, a goddamn mess, because the feudal system is a goddamn mess and calling it a "system" is mostly a backwards-looking attempt to build a theory about a series of improvisations. The role of "clergy" is actually not important - one of the outstanding features of groups like the Templars or Hospitallers is that non-ordained brothers can straightforwardly outrank proper clergy. And it's also why I think that it's more apt to compare Space Marines to militant orders than secular(ish) knights. SM chapters (again a religious term) are largely territory unbound. Their main loyalty is "The Emperor," not Macragge or Deliverance. And, importantly, said Emperor is not really equivalent to a king but to, well, a god-emperor. By contrast, the Questor Imperialis, who seem to really fit into the Imperial armies as an ad-hoc auxilia, are specifically loyal as a chain of retinues. That's more substantial but I feel it's remiss to ignore the terminology: SM are organized in Chapters, their members are Brothers, their wars are Crusades, their homes are Monasteries, and their greatest trauma is a Heresy. I struggle to imagine why the authors would choose these terms and not want us to look at SM as a religious group. Anyway, this is already very nitpicky so I'm gonna back up with a why do I give a poo poo. You've made what I think is the salient point, which is that if SMs are religious, they seem pretty poo poo at it. And there's two ways I can think of to read this without denying the textual references to religion: 1) a broad critique of the emptiness and hollowness of fascism - SM religiosity seems like bullshit because it's how a fascist would build a militiant religious order and fascism's attempts to recapture the glorious past are hollow, weak, and pathetic, just like the SM's religion or 2) GW doesn't really understand the imagery and philosophy they're referencing. I think both (1) and (2) are pretty consistent with other stuff we see from the setting. (1) works as part of a larger showcase that The Imperium of Man is a pathetic assembly of incompetents who stagger from one catastrophe to the next with no tools other than angry gut reactions. To the extent that 40k is satire of fascism and not just "wow cool warrior cults," I think this element works pretty well. (2) I think is obvious but kind of a boring dismissal.
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Jun 22, 2020 17:10
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Space marines are with few exceptions the unmitigated good guys of the setting, representing mankind's best hope of survival, generally departing from Imperial fascism, having the Emperor's actual interests in the protection and betterment of mankind at heart, and being in the best position to fight evil directly. The setting is pretty clear that if there were only enough space marines to go around, it wouldn't be grimdark. So what I'm saying is that they're clearly not meant as a takedown of fascism. GW is very clear when it is making fun of fascists. Loyalist space marines can be lovely/edgy (Grey Knights, Carcharodons, Flesh Tearers) or have Problematic Intrigues (Dark Angels, Blood Ravens) but are all fighting the good fight.
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Jun 22, 2020 17:32
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The Space Marines are also sometimes a bit of a weird case since in theory they revere the Emperor a the pinnacle of humanity, not an explicit god like the rest of the Imperium, and friction can ensue as a result. (this is apparently why the Sisters don't get along with them and especially Black Templars, which otherwise seem like they'd be BFFs) AdMech on the other hand have always been another source of friction, since the whole 'Omnissiah as aspect of the Emperor' is clearly basically a polite fiction since they otherwise have their own machine mysticism going on. I do love the AdMech army because it's just so loving out there, with uber-specialised, completely expendable units and a mix of advanced pragmatic technology and tactics comparable to the Tau with weird poo poo they don't give to anyone else and weapons that are as powerful as they can get while having side-effects that slowly kill their users, who are entirely aware of this and willing to die from that if nothing else gets them first.
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Jun 22, 2020 17:35
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I love the Admech stuff because they said "why not have robot horses?"
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Jun 22, 2020 17:38
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Cease to Hope posted:This sounds like fourth or fifth? I forget which edition switched dreads from vehicle-style armor scores to toughness/wounds/armor saves. Nah, both codices have the dreadnoughts with the standard Vehicle Front/Side/Rear armor values in their statlines. It wasn't until I got to work earlier today and read your post that I realized I'd misremembered what the A in the stat line was - it's for Attacks, not Armour Saves. Saves are listed in the normal unit statlines as Sv. So in the 2000-edition codex, Venerable Dreadnoughts get 3 Attacks, while normal Dreadnoughts only get 2. In the 2009-edition codex, both Venerable and normal Dreadnoughts get 2 Attacks.
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Jun 22, 2020 17:43
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Sodomy Hussein posted:Space marines are with few exceptions the unmitigated good guys of the setting, representing mankind's best hope of survival, generally departing from Imperial fascism, having the Emperor's actual interests in the protection and betterment of mankind at heart, and being in the best position to fight evil directly. The setting is pretty clear that if there were only enough space marines to go around, it wouldn't be grimdark. GW make no bones about marines not being good guys, and the Imperium being a poo poo place to live. Even their own marketing people poo poo on them during broadcasts.
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Jun 22, 2020 18:26
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twistedmentat posted:I love the Admech stuff because they said "why not have robot horses?" I think robot/cyborg horses were already a thing for Rough Riders somewhere? Lovely Joe Stalin posted:GW make no bones about marines not being good guys, and the Imperium being a poo poo place to live. Even their own marketing people poo poo on them during broadcasts. Yeah, and there's a big point how the Space Marines on the whole are less loyal and reliable than your average Imperial trooper. They're barely controllable killing machines with little oversight and various dysfunctions. They're almost as bad as cops.
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Jun 22, 2020 18:32
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Ghost Leviathan posted:The Space Marines are also sometimes a bit of a weird case since in theory they revere the Emperor a the pinnacle of humanity, not an explicit god like the rest of the Imperium, and friction can ensue as a result. (this is apparently why the Sisters don't get along with them and especially Black Templars, which otherwise seem like they'd be BFFs) AdMech look so incredibly loving cool and it's very obvious that they were heavily inspired by Skaven but also I just don't like playing them because it's such a shooting gallery army and I like my eldar transports zipping up to people before dropping tiny efficient deathballs.
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Jun 22, 2020 19:46
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Ghost Leviathan posted:I think robot/cyborg horses were already a thing for Rough Riders somewhere? They have been mentioned but there are no models. Hell the only rough rider models are the fw krieg ones. Honestly I think gw should just dump them and replace them with guardsman on bikes.
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Jun 22, 2020 19:56
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A Buttery Pastry posted:OK, it's a matter of definition then. Way I see it, Warhammer Fantasy had way too much influence from a bunch of sources[...] The WHFB elves and dwarves are absolutely shameless Tolkien fanfic. Setting all of that on fire and focusing on the things that were original to Warhammer was a good idea, even if some of the ideas like zeppelin steampunk dwarves weren't super great. There's nothing about space marines killing as part of their devotion to their cause in their rules or models. There are model lines that express that: some of the Khorne stuff and some of the Sisters stuff, but even then it's iffy. It's hard to express the distinction between killing out of necessity, for a cause, for the thrill, or in the name of a faith in general, let alone in the context of a 28mm toy. Even those new models are exalting dying in the name of the cause. And that seems cool to me, make space marines a suicide cult. It wouldn't even be a big change. W.T. Fits posted:Nah, both codices have the dreadnoughts with the standard Vehicle Front/Side/Rear armor values in their statlines. It wasn't until I got to work earlier today and read your post that I realized I'd misremembered what the A in the stat line was - it's for Attacks, not Armour Saves. Saves are listed in the normal unit statlines as Sv. I'm thinking of Wraithlords anyway. Those switched (and got their current name) in 3rd. Ghost Leviathan posted:I think robot/cyborg horses were already a thing for Rough Riders somewhere? Kind of. Death Korps of Krieg were originally popularized in part by their 3rd edition rules where every model got a 6+ roll to survive dying, in the same style as Necrons, because of their cybernetic enhancements to survive any environment. This included rough riders, and the illustration included horses in gas masks (a real thing btw), so it kinda morphed into their horses also being bioengineered supersoldiers horses, just like the Death Korps. I don't think there have ever been official Death Korps cyberhorses, and the new models just look like regular horses.
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Jun 22, 2020 21:00
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Cease to Hope posted:The WHFB elves and dwarves are absolutely shameless Tolkien fanfic. Setting all of that on fire and focusing on the things that were original to Warhammer was a good idea, even if some of the ideas like zeppelin steampunk dwarves weren't super great. Cease to Hope posted:There's nothing about space marines killing as part of their devotion to their cause in their rules or models. There are model lines that express that: some of the Khorne stuff and some of the Sisters stuff, but even then it's iffy. It's hard to express the distinction between killing out of necessity, for a cause, for the thrill, or in the name of a faith in general, let alone in the context of a 28mm toy. Cease to Hope posted:Even those new models are exalting dying in the name of the cause. And that seems cool to me, make space marines a suicide cult. It wouldn't even be a big change. twistedmentat posted:They have been mentioned but there are no models. Hell the only rough rider models are the fw krieg ones. 
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Jun 22, 2020 21:09
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I also love Admech's pulp sci-fi stuff. Some people think the Kastelan looks stupid. Well I think those people look stupid.
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Jun 22, 2020 21:15
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A Buttery Pastry posted:My pount is that the setting isn't Tolkien fanfic, even if parts of it are, because it's an amalgemation of different pre-existing properties glued together with GW brand glue. I never said literally all of WHFB was Tolkien fanfic. I said that they threw out the Tolkien fanfic with Age of Sigmar and that was a good thing (even if AOS has a host of problems). The rules and models aren't the only part of 40K, but they're the most prominent and least ignorable parts. It's why people want things that are compatible with the rules and models but are incompatible with the easily ignored lore, like space marine women. Space marines being monks, space marines being only dudes, space marines being hidebound conservatives hewing to ancient texts: we are told those things but rarely shown them, and even then it's easy to ignore or miss the places where we are told them. "Well, look at all the lore" is not a rebuttal to "this idea only appears in the lore." The lore is tertiary, and gets changed all the time in service of making the miniatures line or tabletop games more interesting. If the lore is making the miniatures or games boring, it can totally just be changed. Look at 30K and Primaris for two relatively recent examples, and remember that mutant warrior monks is itself a retcon.
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Jun 22, 2020 21:29
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I'd be happy with GW releasing any new guardsmen. The basic catachans look bad and the basic cadians lack even their goofy charm. At least with the rise of the biglies, guard don't tower over marines anymore.
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Jun 22, 2020 21:38
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