awful programming: feature flags and suffering

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Serious Hardware/Software Crap > YOSPOS > awful programming: feature flags and suffering

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Wheany: Mar 17, 2006; Spinya^{ha^{ha^haha}ha}ha_{ha_{ha_haha}ha}ha!; Doctor Rope

redleader posted:

server-side rendering is so easy and good. it's what the web was designed for in the first place lol

yeah, php owns. it's kind of like server-side react, as in mixing a "real programming language" with "template language" instead of trying to invent a new inferior programming language for the template files. try it, it's a pretty mature language with a great ecosystem of libraries

# ? Jun 22, 2020 15:17

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# ? May 29, 2024 11:02

DrPossum: May 15, 2004; i am not a surgeon

Wheany posted:

yeah, php owns

thread title please

# ? Jun 22, 2020 15:22

Private Speech: Mar 30, 2011; I HAVE EVEN MORE WORTHLESS BEANIE BABIES IN MY COLLECTION THAN I HAVE WORTHLESS POSTS IN THE BEANIE BABY THREAD YET I STILL HAVE THE TEMERITY TO CRITICIZE OTHERS' COLLECTIONS

IF YOU SEE ME TALKING ABOUT BEANIE BABIES, PLEASE TELL ME TO

EAT. SHIT.

DrPossum posted:

thread title please

I like the expanded version better

quote:

yeah, php owns. it's kind of like server-side react

# ? Jun 22, 2020 15:32

Notorious b.s.d.: Jan 25, 2003; by Reene

eschaton posted:

wait, jira customizations don�t create their own related tables, they just dump everything into one?

JFC

think "sharepoint" and cry

CRIP EATIN BREAD posted:

they also dont really have internal hooks in the API, they get most of their data from internal REST calls

this is why jira used to be open source

the plugin architecture is so bad that any large customer needed to actually re-compile jira to get useful changes

# ? Jun 22, 2020 15:40

mystes: May 31, 2006

Use the MCMXCV design pattern, which has excellent support for both serverless functions and server side rendering.

CGI with PHP, 1995 style!

# ? Jun 22, 2020 15:42

Shaggar: Apr 26, 2006

eschaton posted:

wait, jira customizations don�t create their own related tables, they just dump everything into one?

JFC

fields are not plugin specific, so you wouldn't want plugins creating their own tables for data that's in a ticket. Th shared fields let you have multiple plugins operate on the same fields, prevent you from losing data when a plugin is uninstalled, and let you add plugins that can use your pre-existing fields.

The problem is when you install a plugin you dont end up using and that plugin adds new fields that only it uses. you end up with a bunch of empty, unused columns that dont get cleaned up. This is one of many reasons you need to be careful about installing new plugins.

There are other, bigger problems in the jira schema where they use fragile keys and other gross orm-inflicted problems.

# ? Jun 22, 2020 15:45

Shaggar: Apr 26, 2006

jesus WEP posted:

is knockout still a thing that people use for mvvm on web? i liked that. you could almost get away with no js at all beyond defining your viewmodel properties and maybe a couple of ajax calls

react is mvvm, they just put it all in the same file and pretend its something different

# ? Jun 22, 2020 15:51

bob dobbs is dead: Oct 8, 2017; I love peeps; Nap Ghost

react is knockout but someone inside facebook could claim credit for it

# ? Jun 22, 2020 15:56

Powerful Two-Hander: Mar 10, 2004; Mods please change my name to "Tooter Skeleton" TIA.

jfc i try to be helpful and not just reply with "have you tried reading the loving notes/googling it?" when talking to the offshore team in the hope that someone might learn soemthing but god drat is it hard sometimes.

1 entire week to add 4 new exception types to a library and now it's taken 4 sets of back and forth of "i can't build the package it gives me some error about a manifest file can you help pls" when the error is literally saying "hey there is no file by that name in the directory, check your path".

its like reading error messages and using google is some sort of unbelievable super power or something

edit: "it still fails with this error <pastes error saying the target dll does not exist> what does it mean?"

"did you actually build the solution?"

"yes but the release folder is empty"

"did you actually build with the release config?"

i mean ffs there is a step by step on this that I wrote but apaprently 4 steps is too many for anyone to be able to read and comprehend.

Powerful Two-Hander fucked around with this message at 11:21 on Jun 23, 2020

# ? Jun 23, 2020 11:13

Powerful Two-Hander: Mar 10, 2004; Mods please change my name to "Tooter Skeleton" TIA.

currently at 2 hours and running nuget-pack and uploading the nupkg file to nexus has still not been achieved

# ? Jun 23, 2020 12:34

Blinkz0rz: May 27, 2001; MY CONTEMPT FOR MY OWN EMPLOYEES IS ONLY MATCHED BY MY LOVE FOR TOM BRADY'S SWEATY MAGA BALLS

Powerful Two-Hander posted:

its like reading error messages and using google is some sort of unbelievable super power or something

i'm constantly amazed that i've been able to get so far in my career and con my employers out of so much money with this as my primary skill

every year i think someone will catch on but they never do lol

# ? Jun 23, 2020 12:56

Osmosisch: Sep 9, 2007; I shall make everyone look like me! Then when they trick each other, they will say "oh that Coyote, he is the smartest one, he can even trick the great Coyote."; Grimey Drawer

Powerful Two-Hander posted:

its like reading error messages and using google is some sort of unbelievable super power or something

It is, from my experience.

# ? Jun 23, 2020 13:25

abigserve: Sep 13, 2009; this is a better avatar than what I had before

--Invoice--
Googling solution: $50
Knowing what to google: $1500

# ? Jun 23, 2020 13:29

gonadic io: Feb 16, 2011; >>=

Osmosisch posted:

It is, from my experience.

When I taught beginner haskell at uni 100% of the first few workshops would be teaching people how to read error messages.

# ? Jun 23, 2020 13:31

CRIP EATIN BREAD: Jun 24, 2002; Hey stop worrying bout my acting bitch, and worry about your WACK ass music. In the mean time... Eat a hot bowl of Dicks! Ice T; Soiled Meat

Powerful Two-Hander posted:

jfc i try to be helpful and not just reply with "have you tried reading the loving notes/googling it?" when talking to the offshore team in the hope that someone might learn soemthing but god drat is it hard sometimes.

we had to bail on our offshore QA team because we spent just as much time holding their hands walking them through basic steps again and again until we just hired our own people in-house. sure they cost a bit more but at least we aren't wasting our senior engineers time answering the same email over and over again.

# ? Jun 23, 2020 14:59

Jabor: Jul 16, 2010; #1 Loser at SpaceChem

If you're hiring offshore folks because you want to pay bottom-of-the-barrel pricing ... you should not be surprised when you get what you pay for.

# ? Jun 23, 2020 15:01

Private Speech: Mar 30, 2011; I HAVE EVEN MORE WORTHLESS BEANIE BABIES IN MY COLLECTION THAN I HAVE WORTHLESS POSTS IN THE BEANIE BABY THREAD YET I STILL HAVE THE TEMERITY TO CRITICIZE OTHERS' COLLECTIONS

IF YOU SEE ME TALKING ABOUT BEANIE BABIES, PLEASE TELL ME TO

EAT. SHIT.

Talking to programmers from my native eastern europe everyone competent avoids outsourcing companies like plague.

So it's not just the language/cultural/whatever barrier but the outsourcing shops only get the most hopeless applicants in the first place.

# ? Jun 23, 2020 15:07

CRIP EATIN BREAD: Jun 24, 2002; Hey stop worrying bout my acting bitch, and worry about your WACK ass music. In the mean time... Eat a hot bowl of Dicks! Ice T; Soiled Meat

our goal was just to hire people to run through a list of tests and do a bunch of boring clicking as they tried to break the system, and report what they did.

now we just hire people to do that in-house and train them to the point where they can start writing their own test automation and eventually graduate to dev work. it's been a much more pleasant experience.

# ? Jun 23, 2020 15:24

bob dobbs is dead: Oct 8, 2017; I love peeps; Nap Ghost

we get solidly deec peeps from outsourcing by paying 80k/yr/head

# ? Jun 23, 2020 15:25

Private Speech: Mar 30, 2011; I HAVE EVEN MORE WORTHLESS BEANIE BABIES IN MY COLLECTION THAN I HAVE WORTHLESS POSTS IN THE BEANIE BABY THREAD YET I STILL HAVE THE TEMERITY TO CRITICIZE OTHERS' COLLECTIONS

IF YOU SEE ME TALKING ABOUT BEANIE BABIES, PLEASE TELL ME TO

EAT. SHIT.

bob dobbs is dead posted:

we get solidly deec peeps from outsourcing by paying 80k/yr/head

oh yeah I imagine if you do that you get quite decent results, even if you outsource to the UK (which I've seen some US companies do before)

e: for comparison the typical eastern european outsourcing salaries I've seen are around 24k USD; which might seem like a trivial difference from the prevailing wage of cca 36k but I assure you that for the employees concerned the difference is just as real as the difference between 60k and 90k or 120k and 180k, if not moreso

most advertised UK tech salaries start around 32k GBP and go to about 46k GBP, though obviously there's exceptions and london's higher

that's excluding various costs so the total would be higher, but still

Private Speech fucked around with this message at 16:58 on Jun 23, 2020

# ? Jun 23, 2020 16:30

Xarn: Jun 26, 2015

Private Speech posted:

Talking to programmers from my native eastern europe everyone competent avoids outsourcing companies like plague.

So it's not just the language/cultural/whatever barrier but the outsourcing shops only get the most hopeless applicants in the first place.

yup. The usual "big software houses" don't pay good money, and the job is boring af, so they only get people who won't/can't get better job. Why would I go work to the poo poo shoveling company when I can get the equivalent of 50k USD at small SW company that actually makes useful SW?

# ? Jun 23, 2020 16:53

bob dobbs is dead: Oct 8, 2017; I love peeps; Nap Ghost

Private Speech posted:

oh yeah I imagine if you do that you get quite decent results, even if you outsource to the UK (which I've seen some US companies do before)

e: for comparison the typical eastern european outsourcing salaries I've seen are around 24k USD; which might seem like a trivial difference from the prevailing wage of cca 36k but I assure you that for the employees concerned the difference is just as real as the difference between 60k and 90k or 120k and 180k, if not moreso

most advertised UK tech salaries start around 32k GBP and go to about 46k GBP, though obviously there's exceptions and london's higher

that's excluding various costs so the total would be higher, but still

one of our contractors homes is about as big as my old school buddies ancestral mansion

# ? Jun 23, 2020 17:00

Private Speech: Mar 30, 2011; I HAVE EVEN MORE WORTHLESS BEANIE BABIES IN MY COLLECTION THAN I HAVE WORTHLESS POSTS IN THE BEANIE BABY THREAD YET I STILL HAVE THE TEMERITY TO CRITICIZE OTHERS' COLLECTIONS

IF YOU SEE ME TALKING ABOUT BEANIE BABIES, PLEASE TELL ME TO

EAT. SHIT.

Honestly 50k GBP or whatever the final amount would look like is a very decent salary even in the UK, especially if you can live somewhere cheap.

Like the average salary in Leeds (a major northern city that's not actually all that cheap by local standards) is 28k GBP.

Private Speech fucked around with this message at 17:16 on Jun 23, 2020

# ? Jun 23, 2020 17:11

Powerful Two-Hander: Mar 10, 2004; Mods please change my name to "Tooter Skeleton" TIA.

CRIP EATIN BREAD posted:

we had to bail on our offshore QA team because we spent just as much time holding their hands walking them through basic steps again and again until we just hired our own people in-house. sure they cost a bit more but at least we aren't wasting our senior engineers time answering the same email over and over again.

after he finally managed to run nuget pack but was still unable to actually upload the package to nexus i just said "just check it in I will sort it out" and hey guess what, while there are actually concrete exception types here all he's done is c&p the same if statements into 5 different locations and then do this:

code:


catch(Exception ex)
{
if(ex.Message.Contains("my butt is on fire"))
{
throw new MyButtException("MyButtException");
}
}

every single exception just throws a bare a message with its own name. not even a vague attempt to add something useful to the message. and instead of creating a generic exception handler that converts to the concrete type he just replicated every single comparative statement on to every catch block so the same code is replicated 5 times i na giant mess of string parsers

i honestly assigned this on the basis that the jira said "take this conditional logic, wrap it into a handler in the library, rewrite the caller to catch the explicit exception types and return a friendly message" and apparently that was far too complicated

Private Speech posted:

Honestly 50k GBP or whatever the final amount would look like is a very decent salary even in the UK, especially if you can live somewhere cheap.

Like the average salary in Leeds (a major northern city that's not actually all that cheap by local standards) is 28k GBP.

the way we gently caress ourselves is by having an "internal cost rate" that is baselined at like �200k, regardless of seniority or actual pay. so even if you wanted to bring on a junior locally, it is treated as being like 10x more expensive than someone in india regardless of how much money might actually be spent.

maybe with the rise of remote working we can just onshore them back to Leeds

edit :that "baseline cost" is like, nominal cost of floorspace, heating etc. so that's clearly nonsense now seeing as even when we do eventually go back they're cutting desks by 50% and we're gonna be remote working half the week

Powerful Two-Hander fucked around with this message at 17:55 on Jun 23, 2020

# ? Jun 23, 2020 17:36

PIZZA.BAT: Nov 12, 2016

Powerful Two-Hander posted:

jfc i try to be helpful and not just reply with "have you tried reading the loving notes/googling it?" when talking to the offshore team in the hope that someone might learn soemthing but god drat is it hard sometimes.

1 entire week to add 4 new exception types to a library and now it's taken 4 sets of back and forth of "i can't build the package it gives me some error about a manifest file can you help pls" when the error is literally saying "hey there is no file by that name in the directory, check your path".

its like reading error messages and using google is some sort of unbelievable super power or something

edit: "it still fails with this error <pastes error saying the target dll does not exist> what does it mean?"

"did you actually build the solution?"

"yes but the release folder is empty"

"did you actually build with the release config?"

i mean ffs there is a step by step on this that I wrote but apaprently 4 steps is too many for anyone to be able to read and comprehend.

even better is when they send you a screenshot of the error instead of just copy/pasting it

# ? Jun 23, 2020 17:41

Powerful Two-Hander: Mar 10, 2004; Mods please change my name to "Tooter Skeleton" TIA.

PIZZA.BAT posted:

even better is when they send you a screenshot of the error instead of just copy/pasting it

oh yeah this was all screenshots

# ? Jun 23, 2020 17:54

mystes: May 31, 2006

mystes fucked around with this message at 18:35 on Jun 23, 2020

# ? Jun 23, 2020 18:31

Private Speech: Mar 30, 2011; I HAVE EVEN MORE WORTHLESS BEANIE BABIES IN MY COLLECTION THAN I HAVE WORTHLESS POSTS IN THE BEANIE BABY THREAD YET I STILL HAVE THE TEMERITY TO CRITICIZE OTHERS' COLLECTIONS

IF YOU SEE ME TALKING ABOUT BEANIE BABIES, PLEASE TELL ME TO

EAT. SHIT.

Here's a random sample of "Software Engineer" jobs from Indeed to prove I'm not talking bollocks numbers.

there's some higher- (and a few lower-) paying ones, but that's what the majority looks like

for some actual terrible programming content the thing I'm working on refuses to debug under gdb because of numerous "deadlock watchdog" checks interspersed throughout which make it restart if it's paused

they don't use any common mechanism to make them easy to disable either

there's also a bespoke string class everywhere which is impossible to parse through gdb/IDE when debugging

and no this isn't embedded this is running on a beefy linux server

Private Speech fucked around with this message at 20:02 on Jun 23, 2020

# ? Jun 23, 2020 18:54

Powerful Two-Hander: Mar 10, 2004; Mods please change my name to "Tooter Skeleton" TIA.

mystes posted:

jeffrey can you make quotes in yospos do this automatically please

# ? Jun 23, 2020 19:05

PIZZA.BAT: Nov 12, 2016

mystes posted:

god i'm going to run into this in the wild now. thanks a lot

# ? Jun 23, 2020 19:52

MononcQc: May 29, 2007

# ? Jun 23, 2020 20:00

Phobeste: Apr 9, 2006; never, like, count out Touchdown Tom, man

really the two quote styles yospos needs are
1. images
2. a mode where you have to respond line by line and every time you add a response to the response the formatting changes in a new and somewhat randomized way, with a line prepended to the post saying "my replies in bold italics" or whatever

# ? Jun 23, 2020 20:10

Sapozhnik: Jan 2, 2005; Nap Ghost

also top posting

cheers
-S.

quote="Phobeste" post="505926978">really the two quote styles yospos needs are
>1. images
>2. a mode where you have to respond line by line and every time you add a response to the response the formatting changes in a new and somewhat randomized way, with a line >prepended to the post saying "my replies in bold italics" or whatever

# ? Jun 23, 2020 20:19

Twerk from Home: Jan 17, 2009; This avatar brought to you by the 'save our dead gay forums' foundation.

Sapozhnik posted:

also top posting

cheers
-S.

quote="Phobeste" post="505926978">really the two quote styles yospos needs are
>1. images
>2. a mode where you have to respond line by line and every time you add a response to the response the formatting changes in a new and somewhat randomized way, with a line >prepended to the post saying "my replies in bold italics" or whatever

You shouldn't get to choose if you top or bottom post, it should alternate automatically every quote

# ? Jun 23, 2020 20:20

Sapozhnik: Jan 2, 2005; Nap Ghost

Sounds good, can you get IT to get us a work estimate?

cheers
-S.

quote="Twerk from Home" post="505927258"]
>also top posting

>cheers
>-S.

>quote="Phobeste" post="505926978">really the two quote styles yospos needs are
>>1. images
>>2. a mode where you have to respond line by line and every time you add a response to the response the formatting changes in a new and somewhat randomized way, with a line >>prepended to the post saying "my replies in bold italics" or whatever
>You shouldn't get to choose if you top or bottom post, it should alternate automatically every quote

# ? Jun 23, 2020 20:22

gonadic io: Feb 16, 2011; >>=

do what mailing lists do and randomly intersperse lines from the post and any quotes

# ? Jun 23, 2020 20:39

Zlodo: Nov 25, 2006

ill make the jira stories

# ? Jun 23, 2020 20:49

Wheany: Mar 17, 2006; Spinya^{ha^{ha^haha}ha}ha_{ha_{ha_haha}ha}ha!; Doctor Rope

Powerful Two-Hander posted:

jeffrey can you make quotes in yospos do this automatically please

code:

.bbc-block {
	background: #fefefe;
	color: #222;
	transform: skew(-2deg,1deg) scale(103%);
	filter: blur(0.5px) grayscale(1);
}

# ? Jun 23, 2020 20:59

mystes: May 31, 2006

Wheany posted:

code:

.bbc-block {
	background: #fefefe;
	color: #222;
	transform: skew(-2deg,1deg) scale(103%);
	filter: blur(0.5px) grayscale(1);
}

Beautiful. :barf:

Simply beautiful.

# ? Jun 23, 2020 21:05

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# ? May 29, 2024 11:02

Phobeste: Apr 9, 2006; never, like, count out Touchdown Tom, man

My comments in italic

Sounds good, can you get IT to get us a work estimate?
i'm not sure how it's going to work out with our current roadmap - we're mostly looking at some kerning changes for Q3

cheers
-S.

quote="Twerk from Home" post="505927258"]
>also top posting

>cheers
>-S.

>quote="Phobeste" post="505926978">really the two quote styles yospos needs are
>>1. images
>>2. a mode where you have to respond line by line and every time you add a response to the response the formatting changes in a new and somewhat randomized way, with a line >>prepended to the post saying "my replies in bold italics" or whatever
>You shouldn't get to choose if you top or bottom post, it should alternate automatically every quote

# ? Jun 23, 2020 21:10

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