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Peacoffee posted:Oh god drat it i missed the long gun holster for Ellie lol I got the long gun holster at the spot that I've seen listed as the short gun holster location (and I even saw a video where someone gets the short gun holster there). Anybody know what gives here? Not that I minded much being able to have both the shotgun and rifle out...while I had ammo for both.
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Jun 23, 2020 15:17
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The rifle not having iron sights is stupid
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Jun 23, 2020 15:20
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Nothing is over! Nothing! You just don't turn it off! It wasn't my war! You asked me, I didn't ask you! And I did what I had to do to win! But somebody wouldn't let us win! And I come back to the thread and I see all those maggots at the forums, protesting me, spitting. Calling me puppy killer and all kinds of vile crap! Who are they to protest me, huh? Who are they? Unless they've been me and been there and know what the hell they're yelling about!
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Jun 23, 2020 15:22
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I love video game trainwrecks and follow them all very closely- even better when they're AAA level and this gen has been a particularly amazing run. In 2019 we had Anthem, 2018 was FO76, Mass Effect Andromeda before that, then Mighty No. 9/No Man's Sky, Tony Hawk 5, Sonic Boom and Ride to Hell retribution in 2013. We have been LONG overdue for shitstorm in 2020 and while definitely not a commercial or technical bomb by any stretch I have been enjoying the all the memes and mspaints from TLOU2's horribly embarrassing narrative/character decisions very much, i love them. If anything it's making me want to play TLOU1 since the comments that strike me the most sincere are the groups of people who have said TLOU1 was one of their favorite games of all time and they hated what they've done with the story/characters in TLOU2.
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Jun 23, 2020 15:38
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Heh, i work with one of the devs on Ride to Hell and it remains one of my go to insults every time he gives me poo poo when we're playing smash. "You play falcon, gently caress you" "You literally worked on Ride to Hell, gently caress you".
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Jun 23, 2020 15:41
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A bit of an oxymoron here, i cant tell that people still arguing and making absolutely definitive cases for whether joel was completely justified or an irredeemable monster means they wrote the moral ambiguity well (people still cant decide) or they didnt communicatw it well enough (its super obvious it was morally gray yet people fail to recognize it)
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Jun 23, 2020 15:53
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beep by grandpa posted:In 2019 we had Anthem The Bob Dylan of videogames
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Jun 23, 2020 15:54
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ArfJason posted:A bit of an oxymoron here, i cant tell that people still arguing and making absolutely definitive cases for whether joel was completely justified or an irredeemable monster means they wrote the moral ambiguity well (people still cant decide) or they didnt communicatw it well enough (its super obvious it was morally gray yet people fail to recognize it) What makes this interesting is how much player feedback fed into it. Pretty much the entirety of the way the ending plays out was based on tester feedback, where they were like "There needs to be a moral choice! I mean, I wouldn't end up picking the option to let them kill Ellie, but it still needs to be a choice!". So on a certain level, that aspect of the story comes directly from the idea that they noticed people were having trouble wrestling with the dilemma and just decided to double down on that.
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Jun 23, 2020 16:03
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I'd say that being morally ambiguous and being highly divisive aren't really quite the same thing. It's not really morally grey in the sense that it's hard to tell whether what he did was a good thing or a bad thing, because it doesn't really straddle the kind of line that makes people wonder what the right thing to do in that situation even is. Joel pretty much either did an unambiguously okay thing or a really, really bad thing, but which side people fall on tends to depend more on circumstantial things, such as what they think about the efficacy of the Fireflies and their chances of their research into a cure actually going anywhere. In my eyes it's not the nature of the dilemma that makes it divisive, it's that the game carefully avoids ever quite telling you what the actual consequences of it were. It's either really bad or it doesn't matter at all, but the game refuses to tell you which it is. It's less a moral debate and more a debate about what people think the plot of the game actually was. beep by grandpa posted:If anything it's making me want to play TLOU1 since the comments that strike me the most sincere are the groups of people who have said TLOU1 was one of their favorite games of all time and they hated what they've done with the story/characters in TLOU2. Cardiovorax fucked around with this message at 16:15 on Jun 23, 2020 |
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Jun 23, 2020 16:08
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Crappy Jack posted:What makes this interesting is how much player feedback fed into it. Pretty much the entirety of the way the ending plays out was based on tester feedback, where they were like "There needs to be a moral choice! I mean, I wouldn't end up picking the option to let them kill Ellie, but it still needs to be a choice!". That kind of rules, honestly. I prefer that approach to player feedback compared to the Valve style of "the testers kept drowning themselves like morons in shallow pools looking for treasure, so we removed all the water from this area".
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Jun 23, 2020 16:10
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Barudak posted:GTAV has you gun down a previously playable character rather unceremoniously in a way that pissed off some fans and left others confused going "who did I shoot"? That one honestly still makes me mad, TLAD was the best part of IV and R* can blow me.
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Jun 23, 2020 16:12
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I think 'is it OK to kill one person to save many people' and 'is it OK to kill a bunch of people to save one person you care about' are both famously contentious moral topics
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Jun 23, 2020 16:16
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Irony Be My Shield posted:I think 'is it OK to kill one person to save many people' and 'is it OK to kill a bunch of people to save one person you care about' are both famously contentious moral topics
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Jun 23, 2020 16:24
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Barudak posted:GTAV has you gun down a previously playable character rather unceremoniously in a way that pissed off some fans and left others confused going "who did I shoot"? IIRC you don't gun him down, Trevor curb stomps him to death
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Jun 23, 2020 16:27
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Cardiovorax posted:I'd say that being morally ambiguous and being highly divisive aren't really quite the same thing. Thats an interesting perspective even if i disagree at the conclusion. I agree with Irony Be My Shield here. From a cold observer position whether the fireflies can or cant do the vaccine is a critical point on whether its good or bad sure, but from a human being with attachments feelings and regrets, sacrificing your surrogate daughter, youre bound to be overtaken by emotion. Besides its not like the fireflies gave ellie the option either right? I think its a bit of a worn dilemma but its presented well imho
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Jun 23, 2020 16:27
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I don't think the question of whether or not the Fireflies would be able to make and meaningful progress towards a cure by killing Ellie is meant to be all that pivotal in how you view Joel's decisions at the end of the game. I think that kind of misses the intended point. That said, I can see how the makers' decision to portray the Fireflies as such a group of incompetents muddies the waters. General Dog fucked around with this message at 16:32 on Jun 23, 2020 |
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Jun 23, 2020 16:29
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I don't get the thread rules- if this is a spoiler thread why do we have to use spoilers tags...SIGH 😤 Anyways I saw this and wanted to share 
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Jun 23, 2020 16:29
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General Dog posted:I don't think the question of whether or not the Fireflies would be able to make and meaningful progress towards a cure by killing Ellie is meant to be all that pivotal in how you view Joel's decisions at the end of the game. I think that kind of misses the intended point. Yeah agreed. Its not about cold hard logic.
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Jun 23, 2020 16:30
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Dan Didio posted:Yeah, there's more than a few places where I got ready for a fight and one never came. The science museum fake-out is great. They even sprinkle alcohol, rags, bricks, etc. like you are about to enter a combat section. Then nothing.
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Jun 23, 2020 16:31
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Nail Rat posted:IIRC you don't gun him down, Trevor curb stomps him to death If that's who we're talking about it's also in a cutscene and, to my thinking, not the same thing as the player doing it.
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Jun 23, 2020 16:32
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General Dog posted:I don't think the question of whether or not the Fireflies would be able to make and meaningful progress towards a cure by killing Ellie is meant to be all that pivotal in how you view Joel's decisions at the end of the game. I think that kind of misses the intended point. the fixation on the fireflies' logistics or the hospital's sanitary conditions is deliberately missing the point in an attempt to exonerate joel, yeah i've been spinning this track for a while now but both he and marlene had the exact same reasons for doing what they did, good intentions that ended in mutual ruination, and it's a story that had repeated over and over again for the entire game and that the audience could (and was supposed to) assume would continue repeating after
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Jun 23, 2020 16:32
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General Dog posted:I don't think the question of whether or not the Fireflies would be able to make and meaningful progress towards a cure by killing Ellie is meant to be all that pivotal in how you view Joel's decisions at the end of the game. I think that kind of misses the intended point. 
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Jun 23, 2020 16:32
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beep by grandpa posted:I don't get the thread rules- if this is a spoiler thread why do we have to use spoilers tags...SIGH 😤 incredible
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Jun 23, 2020 16:34
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Nail Rat posted:I got the long gun holster at the spot that I've seen listed as the short gun holster location (and I even saw a video where someone gets the short gun holster there). Anybody know what gives here? Interesting you say that as I just got my long gun holster from a safe in Hillcrest Life, uh, finds a way
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Jun 23, 2020 16:34
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beep by grandpa posted:I love video game trainwrecks and follow them all very closely- even better when they're AAA level and this gen has been a particularly amazing run. In 2019 we had Anthem, 2018 was FO76, Mass Effect Andromeda before that, then Mighty No. 9/No Man's Sky, Tony Hawk 5, Sonic Boom and Ride to Hell retribution in 2013. The game is really good actually. People are are laughing at the Schindler's List acclaim.
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Jun 23, 2020 16:36
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Cardiovorax posted:Well, I think it matters a lot, because I think consequences are a big part of what determines the moral value of an action. Without that, it's just a context-less question of "would you agree, in a vacuum, that sometimes it is okay to hurt people you don't know to protect someone you care about on a personal level," which I think is so milquetoast when it comes to moral dilemmas that it barely even really even says anything at all about you. Right, but the alternative is saying "the Fireflies would have wasted Ellie's sacrifice regardless, so Joel is 100% exonerated", which is in itself a little too tidy. Ultimately, I don't think the game is asking you to make a moral judgement on Joel's actions, I think it's just a story where our protagonists' happy ending comes at a steep price. Joel has made peace with that trade, and the very end suggests that Ellie (without knowing all the specifics) has as well. General Dog fucked around with this message at 16:41 on Jun 23, 2020 |
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Jun 23, 2020 16:38
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I really liked how all throughout the game you see Ellie practicing guitar trying to work out a song and the last scene of the game is her realizing she can no long play it without her fingers.  I thought that was a nice touch and made up for all those guitar minigames. I feel like little ideas like this are missed by watching streams or by those that let a few specific scenes stop them from completing/playing the game.
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Jun 23, 2020 16:39
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punk rebel ecks posted:The game is really good actually. People are are laughing at the Schindler's List acclaim. It's like the opposite of Bioshock Infinite. The game itself actually holds up extremely well and is super good, but you can still make fun of the reviewers for huffing their own farts over it.
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Jun 23, 2020 16:40
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General Dog posted:Right, but the alternative is saying "the Fireflies would have wasted Ellie's sacrifice regardless, so Joel is 100% exonerated", which is in itself a little too tidy. Cardiovorax fucked around with this message at 16:45 on Jun 23, 2020 |
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Jun 23, 2020 16:43
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Cardiovorax posted:but which side people fall on tends to depend more on circumstantial things, such as what they think about the efficacy of the Fireflies and their chances of their research into a cure actually going anywhere. at least to me that barely matters
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Jun 23, 2020 16:44
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Irony Be My Shield posted:I think 'is it OK to kill one person to save many people' and 'is it OK to kill a bunch of people to save one person you care about' are both famously contentious moral topics When you boil it down to its core it's just a trolley problem yeah. Worked pretty well considering the debates it still generates to this day. 
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Jun 23, 2020 16:55
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Dewgy posted:It's like the opposite of Bioshock Infinite. The game itself actually holds up extremely well and is super good, but you can still make fun of the reviewers for huffing their own farts over it. I never understood the criticism of that game having bad gameplay. Sure it isn't stellar but it isn't "bad", the game had fun stuff like the rail surfing. The story was much worse than TLOU2 though, with the whole "both sides" thing.
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Jun 23, 2020 16:59
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punk rebel ecks posted:I never understood the criticism of that game having bad gameplay. Sure it isn't stellar but it isn't "bad", the game had fun stuff like the rail surfing. The combat was merely OK, which is a dissapointment if you're shelling out sixty bucks for a widely hyped AAA game with a lot of, for lack of a better word, prestige tied to it. It's like, when people say "I played (not well received AAA game) years later for ten bucks and it really wasn't THAT bad", what they're really talking about is the expectations they have for the game. Bioshock infinite isn't BAD, but it's not as good as anything that took that many people that long to make should be.
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Jun 23, 2020 17:06
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wrt Joel: you people are applying personal knowledge to the situation, but what did Joel think? The narrative is muddled on purpose because ND wanted you to juxtapose your decision against Joel's, support it, or, even better IMHO, recognize you'd need to study some philosophy to have the means to frame the situation in a more rational matter. wrt combat: I admit I wanted a GOW2018 rework of mechanics. The gameplay is serviceable but when I got to pet Alice, and I saw she'd be part of the initial mission, I immediatly thought "ooh wait perhaps there's an attack dog skill tree in Abby's upgrades?" - cue the sad trombone some hours later. edit: now that I read about the two clickers in Santa Barbara - also, I wanted more three-way fights. There's too few and the first one, the subway station WLF vs infected one, is the most impressive, they should've doubled down on that. Char fucked around with this message at 17:32 on Jun 23, 2020 |
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Jun 23, 2020 17:28
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Since this seems like the "discuss what the hell is going on at Naughty Dog" thread, these tweets might be of some interest. The writer who reported about Amy Hennig leaving Naughty Dog saying that the editors forced a gossip/"she was forced out" angle into the story that wasn't backed up by the reporting and left him to take the fallout: https://twitter.com/MitchyD/status/1275458023515971590?s=20 https://twitter.com/MitchyD/status/1275458024384221184?s=20
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Jun 23, 2020 17:32
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punk rebel ecks posted:I never understood the criticism of that game having bad gameplay. Sure it isn't stellar but it isn't "bad", the game had fun stuff like the rail surfing. I really like BS:I myself but it's really all about the main gameplay and the Booker/Elizabeth dynamic. It's a great character piece but the worldbuilding is very  once you take a step back and look at it as a whole.
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Jun 23, 2020 17:33
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The thing with Joel and the fireflies is it seems pretty straightforward: No, you don’t kill children in the hopes it might lead to a cure, and you don’t really get to dictate the terms under which someone who realizes that, no, you don’t do that, stops you. Especially the scalpel lol. You could say both sides have issues with their reasons and methods, but only one was trying to kill a kid in the first place.
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Jun 23, 2020 17:33
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Oxxidation posted:the fixation on the fireflies' logistics or the hospital's sanitary conditions is deliberately missing the point in an attempt to exonerate joel, yeah If the game actively aids and abets missing the point, is that the games/writers fault or the audiences?
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Jun 23, 2020 17:36
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One would assume it is wrong to go killing kids because they happen to have valuable organs. You could say its the apocalypse yada yada but at that point then who needs a savage new society founded upon sacrificing a child.
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Jun 23, 2020 17:37
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I would have let them kill ellie if I was given the choice
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