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Yeah, I think there will be a good bit of Earthers and Mars people who stick to terraforming Mars after the disaster that was the first expedition. Plus, Avarsala has a good point that there is now a direct path to Earth for some killer aliens.
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Jun 19, 2020 17:15
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CLAM DOWN posted:Mars Forever https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ip1usqfHFOc
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Jun 19, 2020 22:14
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Norton the First posted:I still don't get the whole defeatist Martian attitude. They have real ("real"?) coffee on their warships, ffs. Their standard of living is the highest of any people orbiting Sol, and the domes seem to be working just fine for them. And human organisms living in 0.3g would probably own, because it would take a long long time for humans to evolve to the point where that was all they could handle. Not everyone agrees, but even if there are some who doubt The Terraforming Project, who slack off or are self interested, they're shamed by their neighbors and treated harshly by every subtle mechanism of a society that otherwise agrees that something really important is being done. But one day this project isn't an effort to go from one to two, it's an effort to go from a thousand to a thousand plus one. They've been pouring concrete into the deep sea for generations when all of a sudden someone comes back with reports of a whole archipelago. So now when someone says "who cares," slacks off, or abandons their responsibility, and Martian society says "you've impeded The Project!" it doesn't have the same weight. That's just the spiritual damage. There's also the fact that smart folks are likely going to leave Mars. Terraforming material is likely going to be redirected. Even if Mars tries to control colonies in the new worlds, it's obvious that every one of those planets has more potential than Mars does and it's only a matter of time before they throw off their shackles. The Martian political future looks bleak. None of that stuff has happened yet, but it's obvious that it will. Betraying Mars is no longer betraying the hope of humanity. It's now the smart move. Abandoning a sinking ship. So that's where the really interesting contradiction comes from. They're still, right now, powerful a materially advanced. Nothing has physically happened to Mars. But their ideas have been gutted and that leads to an almost immediate material collapse like we saw last season. It's really neat and well realized. Mu Zeta posted:I thought the younger generations didn't care about the dream of Mars and were fine just living their lives. That martian chaplain guy was bitching about how Bobbie's whole group don't know the meaning of sacrifice. The Martian ambassador guy that was poisoned by Errinwright also said the same thing. Either way the gates have the same result. Either Martian society is a strong techno-utopia built on terraforming zeal, or it's just shining techno-edifice that's already corroded inside and is barely being propped up by terraforming zeal. Either way, taking the terraforming zeal out of the equation is the end of Mars as we know it.
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Jun 19, 2020 23:06
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The unemployment is the dealbreaker, I think. It's one thing to employ everyone to terraform a planet, but people aren't going to sit around unemployed doing nothing - especially if they were in the service - when there's free air, water, and land if you can get yourself on a colony transport.
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Jun 19, 2020 23:25
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I'd want access to all the cucumbers I wanted as well
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Jun 19, 2020 23:40
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drat these were good
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Jun 21, 2020 00:06
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PeterWeller posted:Yes, that's a really nice touch and adds to why people have become disillusioned with the Martian program. There's no reason to put up with such an intrusive state when there are a thousand new worlds just waiting for you. Yeah I thought one of the more interesting aspects of the recent season was going deeper in the Mars side of the perspective and also showing how peacetime / gates unlocking fundamentally altered the balance of power. The whole dream of terraforming the planet over hundreds years and also the ideological intensity required to keep the focus on the long term goal pretty much gets destroyed when they are possibly hundreds of worlds ready to be colonized beyond the gates.
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Jun 21, 2020 14:49
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Mars the planet is hosed. Mars the polity, with its vast space navy, well trained military, well educated and generally complaint citizenry doesn't have to be. There is a very large opportunity for the people of Mars to evolve past the planet itself. They should have set up their own official government backed colonies, that can directly feed back into the terraforming project, but the Mars state itself has to evolve to include all these great planets that they could now own, "Be a good citizen and settle the New Martian Worlds!." They have the military clout to enforce their will, and doing a deal to divide up the best prospects of the gate worlds with Earth would just cement their ownership. One Tachi class corvette would be enough to enforce a claim on any system. Sure enough they could only reliably claim 100 systems of varying quality, but that would be a better offering to their potential colonists than the laissez faire, wild west of everything else. In fact it would be in their interest to leave a large proportion of the gate worlds open to free settlement, for freedom loving malcontents to settle on and fight over. The gates are an outside context problem for Mars, the moment they opened the old dream of Mars died.
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Jun 22, 2020 23:41
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Collateral posted:Mars the planet is hosed. Mars the polity, with its vast space navy, well trained military, well educated and generally complaint citizenry doesn't have to be. There is a very large opportunity for the people of Mars to evolve past the planet itself. Why would successful colonies on habitable worlds want to contribute in any way to a useless expensive difficult and long terraforming project?
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Jun 23, 2020 00:26
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If you master terraforming technology, that's even MORE planets available to colonize!
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Jun 23, 2020 00:47
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Sankara posted:If you master terraforming technology, that's even MORE planets available to colonize! That doesn't really matter when you have to spend hundreds of years on the lovely planets when everyone else finds habitable planets. Mars has no leverage with anything anymore. Terraforming is useless when there are a bunch of new planets to check out. Starting colonies doesn't work when your entire planetary identity is "colonizers are bad and we overthrew them." Mars is hosed.
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Jun 23, 2020 01:02
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I get abandoning the dream of colonizing Mars but why dismantle your navy? Who the hell knows whats out there waiting in the vast unknown. I'd rather roll in through the gate 30 deep with Donnager class ships than anything the belters are gonna send. If theres no threats and everyone is more or less peaceful with each others claims then sure retrofit them for something more practical.
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Jun 23, 2020 02:02
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Collateral posted:Mars the planet is hosed. Mars the polity, with its vast space navy, well trained military, well educated and generally complaint citizenry doesn't have to be. There is a very large opportunity for the people of Mars to evolve past the planet itself. Yeah, I don't think there'd be any political will to terraform Mars anymore. But I agree with you that it's needlessly pessimistic to think their society would collapse because of it. Martian society was united by the common goal of terraforming Mars, but they were also united by an ambitious sense of their ability to achieve something impossible. "We can build a planet better than Earth." I could definitely imagine a political faction understanding that, and embracing the ethos of Mars separate from the planet itself: Martians are humans who've evolved beyond their birth world, and are the only organized state with the will to settle the cosmos. All the super fascist messaging behind the Martian political apparatus would still apply. "We're better, stronger, smarter, able to adapt." "Earth is lazy and complacent, but we can be something greater." "We turned a wasteland into a home, and can turn a garden into a utopia." Find a habitable world to call New Mars, and I don't see why they wouldn't be able to sell their citizens on the idea that the mission isn't over, it has simply changed.
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Jun 23, 2020 02:08
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Historically, fascist states don't respond well to their raison d'être falling out from under them. All these super logical "well if A fails then switch to B" plans are missing the whole point of operating top-heavy totalitarian governments by force in the first place, that if you could get your way by any other means you wouldn't have to.banned from Starbucks posted:I get abandoning the dream of colonizing Mars but why dismantle your navy? Who the hell knows whats out there waiting in the vast unknown. I'd rather roll in through the gate 30 deep with Donnager class ships than anything the belters are gonna send. If theres no threats and everyone is more or less peaceful with each others claims then sure retrofit them for something more practical. IIRC Donnagers were as expensive to field as they were powerful, the whole reason Mars was reticent to actually go to war was because their technological superiority only put them at parity with Earth's numerical superiority. Force projection all the way to the gate systems would be a major undertaking for them, and they're already strapped for resources as-is. McSpanky fucked around with this message at 04:33 on Jun 23, 2020 |
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Jun 23, 2020 04:28
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One of the problems of the show is that life inside a Martian dome looks pretty good. Yeah it's an endless series of hallways and has the imagination of a giant mall in a flyover state, but it looks a hell of a lot better than the earth slums or belter drug dens.
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Jun 23, 2020 05:45
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Mu Zeta posted:One of the problems of the show is that life inside a Martian dome looks pretty good. Yeah it's an endless series of hallways and has the imagination of a giant mall in a flyover state, but it looks a hell of a lot better than the earth slums or belter drug dens. I still maintain that the show made a mistake showing the Earth slums rather than the Basic Income that 99% of the planet exist on.
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Jun 23, 2020 10:26
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Aside from a few throwaway lines, it would be easy to think that those slums were what basic was like. Hopefully they do show it off at some point. Basic seems like it was designed specifically to get people out of the way. They act like there's not enough jobs to go around for people who want them, but it seems like there is all kinds of empty land around that could be used for agriculture. A lack of decent food seems to be a big issue for almost everyone in the system aside from rich people.
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Jun 23, 2020 18:16
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Cojawfee posted:Aside from a few throwaway lines, it would be easy to think that those slums were what basic was like. Hopefully they do show it off at some point. Basic seems like it was designed specifically to get people out of the way. They act like there's not enough jobs to go around for people who want them, but it seems like there is all kinds of empty land around that could be used for agriculture. A lack of decent food seems to be a big issue for almost everyone in the system aside from rich people. The loving constant mentions of how all of the food is actually fake mycoprotein or vat grown is by far the most annoying authorial tic in the novels.
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Jun 23, 2020 19:28
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PriorMarcus posted:I still maintain that the show made a mistake showing the Earth slums rather than the Basic Income that 99% of the planet exist on. Oh, I thought that was Basic. Why are they in slums if everyone can get basic?
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Jun 23, 2020 19:37
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Thom12255 posted:Oh, I thought that was Basic. Why are they in slums if everyone can get basic? There's an underclass of unregistered people who don't get Basic.
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Jun 23, 2020 19:45
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Thom12255 posted:Oh, I thought that was Basic. Why are they in slums if everyone can get basic? Because basic means you get to eat whatever sludge they hand out and wear paper clothes. Those people can get more variety.
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Jun 23, 2020 20:25
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if you're a hustler or criminal you can potentially live much better by going off the grid. no safety net to catch you though.
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Jun 23, 2020 20:55
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People also just fall through the cracks from administrative errors and stuff. Managing 30 billion people is hard. Earth gets a lot of criticism in the show and from fans but the fact they're able to keep 30 billion people getting by without being homeless or starving is more impressive than they're given credit for. And as the authors have said, Basic seems crappy to a lot of us living in the developed world but there are a ton of people in the world today who would love to have Basic.
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Jun 23, 2020 20:59
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I'd loving love Basic tia
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Jun 23, 2020 21:04
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BASIC is great:code:
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Jun 23, 2020 21:14
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Mu Zeta posted:One of the problems of the show is that life inside a Martian dome looks pretty good. Yeah it's an endless series of hallways and has the imagination of a giant mall in a flyover state, but it looks a hell of a lot better than the earth slums or belter drug dens. It's like a German/Japanese level of order and cleanliness.
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Jun 23, 2020 21:22
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Grand Fromage posted:People also just fall through the cracks from administrative errors and stuff. Managing 30 billion people is hard. Earth gets a lot of criticism in the show and from fans but the fact they're able to keep 30 billion people getting by without being homeless or starving is more impressive than they're given credit for. And as the authors have said, Basic seems crappy to a lot of us living in the developed world but there are a ton of people in the world today who would love to have Basic. Earth is somehow supporting 30 billion people and they've also tackled climate change without catastrophic loss of life or natural habitat so yeah they're doing pretty well all things considered.
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Jun 23, 2020 23:20
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Dreylad posted:they've also tackled climate change without catastrophic loss of life or natural habitat Uh. They had to build a giant seawall around NYC precisely because they hosed up managing climate change.
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Jun 23, 2020 23:25
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CLAM DOWN posted:Uh. Thereby preventing catastrophic loss of life. Although the Everglades are underwater so the natural habitat part is still wrong.
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Jun 23, 2020 23:32
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Well, the oceans rising is going to happen no matter what at this point, that's baked in. Even if we completely stopped emitting CO2 today, NYC's going to need seawalls. They did manage to avoid the worst case climate change scenarios in the Expanse tho.
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Jun 23, 2020 23:36
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Turns out the solution is cold fusion, so simple!
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Jun 23, 2020 23:39
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Dreylad posted:Earth is somehow supporting 30 billion people and they've also tackled climate change without catastrophic loss of life or natural habitat so yeah they're doing pretty well all things considered. Isn't Earth exploiting the labor of bilions of belters though to do it?
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Jun 23, 2020 23:42
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Nah, there's about 70 million people in the belt. It's exploitative, for sure, but it's like if the Netherlands was a resource colony and the rest of the (2020) world was the metropole.
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Jun 23, 2020 23:58
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One thing the show doesn't do very well is show how hosed Mars is. Yeah like we get Bobbie's arc this season but in the books it's much clearer. Bobbie notices when she goes back that Mars is practically empty. Like her neighborhood is almost deserted. The entire population is just leaving. Plus you have Collapse of The Soviet Union style selling off of military goods/organized looting that is very downplayed in the show. In the show its like almost small time hustling but in the books its like apocalyptic
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Jun 24, 2020 00:45
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Dreylad posted:Earth is somehow supporting 30 billion people and they've also tackled climate change without catastrophic loss of life or natural habitat so yeah they're doing pretty well all things considered. "Tackled climate change" meaning the ice caps are still gone and most animal species having gone extinct
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Jun 24, 2020 00:46
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Phi230 posted:"Tackled climate change" meaning the ice caps are still gone and most animal species having gone extinct but there aren’t zero people left on planet earth so hey, better than us (probably!)
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Jun 24, 2020 01:02
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Phi230 posted:One thing the show doesn't do very well is show how hosed Mars is. Yeah like we get Bobbie's arc this season but in the books it's much clearer. The show timeline is a bit different than the books at this point, by the time all the stuff on Ilus was happening in Cibola Burn there was already a bunch of other systems being colonized. I kinda doubt we'll be on Mars as much next season, but it'll probably be more of a ghost town by then.
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Jun 24, 2020 01:13
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you should try to avoid spoliers like this since the show has re arranged the book timeline and S5 may show this.
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Jun 24, 2020 01:38
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Grand Fromage posted:Well, the oceans rising is going to happen no matter what at this point, that's baked in. Even if we completely stopped emitting CO2 today, NYC's going to need seawalls. They did manage to avoid the worst case climate change scenarios in the Expanse tho. Yeah, and considering they have ten times our current population the Earth of the future must have net zero or lower carbon emissions. That's not a bad outcome all things considered. It makes sense. If Mars has the technology to terraform the red planet, then Earth probably has the technology to slowly address the damage done by climate change. Emphasis on slowly.
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Jun 24, 2020 03:15
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This is proof goons did a better job leading Mars in our Aurora 4x Fanfic of The Expanse than they did in this game.
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Jun 24, 2020 06:07
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