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Another reason why only 5,000 PHEV Rav-4's will make it to USA is the car market there has razor thin margins, and it makes more sense to sell in markets willing to pay more. And there's the monopolistic presence Tesla has in America when it comes to plug-in vehicles. Not even VW (ID 3), BMW (iX 3), or Honda (E) want their newest EVs to sell there, citing "limited demand" in that market.
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Jul 1, 2020 03:36
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Nfcknblvbl posted:Another reason why only 5,000 PHEV Rav-4's will make it to USA is the car market there has razor thin margins, and it makes more sense to sell in markets willing to pay more. Well the id3 is because Americans like fat cars which it is decidedly not.
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Jul 1, 2020 03:38
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 The ID 3's not a compact sedan.
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Jul 1, 2020 03:49
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Nostalgic Cashew posted:So when do we think the dam will break? Is more mining happening/raw material coming on line? I mean, it seems kinda crazy that toyota, Hybrid king, doesn't have sufficient battery supply for a hybrid car. Granted it's not their usual chemistry, but come on, was no one thinking that they might want to lock down some supply before tesla released the model 3, or did they just assume tesla would fall flat on their face? Everyone else realized that they needed their own capacity and integration-- toyota just partnered with panasonic to build their own gigafactory analog, and GM is building one with LG in Ohio. Both of those are probably 2 years out.
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Jul 1, 2020 04:30
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Yeah, LG and Panasonic are pretty much the only players in the high quality Lion game. How's Teslas mine here/build here factory in Nevada going? E: gotta get those green cells for your vape, bro.
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Jul 1, 2020 04:52
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Lol at batteries being a commodity. Lithium is the commodity, manufacturing a gajillion cells/pouches etc without burning the place down or rejecting half of them is the bottle neck, even LG, Panasonic etc can't just switch on a new factory at full throttle.
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Jul 1, 2020 06:12
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The PHEV is more or less a dead end concept now that EVs have proven to be practical for like 9/10ths of car drivers. I can understand them not dedicating a lot of resources towards aggressively sourcing production components for something that has too many compromises to live long. Now, doing all that while still pushing hydrogen cars makes it seem more like this is just some lovely pride-based decision.
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Jul 1, 2020 07:03
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Triggerhappypilot posted:The PHEV is more or less a dead end concept now that EVs have proven to be practical for like 9/10ths of car drivers. That's far from true, pure EVs are still way too expensive for most people.
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Jul 1, 2020 07:22
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Nfcknblvbl posted:Another reason why only 5,000 PHEV Rav-4's will make it to USA is the car market there has razor thin margins, and it makes more sense to sell in markets willing to pay more. It’s hilarious how car companies keep shooting them selves in the the dick. People don’t want electric cars! People don’t want electric cars! I said as Tesla slowly becomes the most valuable car company on earth.
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Jul 1, 2020 08:33
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Bum the Sad posted:It’s hilarious how car companies keep shooting them selves in the the dick. That’s not because people want electric cars, stupid. Stock price has nothing to do with customer demand.
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Jul 1, 2020 11:50
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People want the easiest cheapest poo poo to get from point a to point b. Battery or gas they don’t care. Once battery becomes a common commodity Tesla only has their “self driving” to fall back on. Otherwise they become the Kia of the automotive world.
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Jul 1, 2020 11:56
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dissss posted:That's far from true, pure EVs are still way too expensive for most people. They're not significantly cheaper than a PHEV though, I think they meant they're practical in the sense of they cover 9/10's of drivers driving needs, not financial needs
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Jul 1, 2020 14:11
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Triggerhappypilot posted:The PHEV is more or less a dead end concept now that EVs have proven to be practical for like 9/10ths of car drivers. I can understand them not dedicating a lot of resources towards aggressively sourcing production components for something that has too many compromises to live long. Nah, there's still a lot of people who don't have home access to charging. Even though I could L2 charge at work, there's only 4 plugs, so I wouldn't want to rely on those twice a week when there's always at least two Teslas and a Kona parked there when I arrive. PHEV is a good compromise for the millions of people who live in high density cities and can't just fill an underground parking garage with charge points. Even a used Bolt, which is probably the most range you can get for your dollar, is going to cost $5-10k more than a used Prius Prime or Clarity, need charging twice a week, and be nowhere near as nice a place to spend your commute in. Don't get me wrong, I would love to get a full electric, but compromising on where you live to accommodate your choice of car seems rear end-backward to me (not very AI of me, I know).
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Jul 1, 2020 14:21
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One of the absolute most annoying things is that in dense urban areas where EVs work well, most people don't have the ability to retrofit charging because they either rent their home or street park or both.
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Jul 1, 2020 14:37
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I don't believe that EVs are practical for 90% of drivers yet. I'm in a high density area close to NYC and an EV only works for me because it's my second car and fourth vehicle. If it was my only car, it just wouldn't work for me for a variety of reasons including the piss poor supercharger situation in northern NJ and my long winter trip needs.
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Jul 1, 2020 14:39
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They're probably not practical for a lot of households as a single car but considering the average American household has 1.9 vehicles I think they work just fine as second cars at a household level.
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Jul 1, 2020 14:42
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Triggerhappypilot posted:The PHEV is more or less a dead end concept now that EVs have proven to be practical for like 9/10ths of car drivers I rent a house with plenty of parking and a 50A outlet in the garage. I could 100% switch my daily driver to EV and I intend to do exactly that once I can afford something with ~200 miles of real world, non-hypermiling range. My friends who live in apartments with unassigned lot parking on the other hand, some of them can charge at work but I'm sure anyone who bought in to EVs counting on that has been regretting that plan for the last few months. For them it's PHEV or ICE, a pure EV is not really a viable option PHEVs are definitely transitional vehicles that shouldn't really have a long-term future, but the transition stage is far from over. KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:They're probably not practical for a lot of households as a single car but considering the average American household has 1.9 vehicles I think they work just fine as second cars at a household level. That said I agree that for the people that have the ability to charge at home but couldn't fit an EV in to their primary vehicle slot, one could almost certainly fit as a secondary.
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Jul 1, 2020 16:20
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PHEVs are the best of both worlds, at the expense of having to have an engine plus a battery (although I'm assuming you can have a smaller battery that way, which helps keep the costs down). In Tesla news, apparently now their factory in Germany will not be producing batteries, and they plan on producing 100k or more cars there a year. The factory there never made sense except for keeping up the "growth narrative," but now it really seems like what's the point.
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Jul 1, 2020 16:52
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MomJeans420 posted:PHEVs are the best of both worlds, at the expense of having to have an engine plus a battery (although I'm assuming you can have a smaller battery that way, which helps keep the costs down).
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Jul 1, 2020 18:01
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MomJeans420 posted:PHEVs are the best of both worlds, at the expense of having to have an engine plus a battery (although I'm assuming you can have a smaller battery that way, which helps keep the costs down). And this is why the Volt should've stayed in production until GM releases this next generation of BEVs, at least.
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Jul 1, 2020 18:19
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im still over here hootin and hollerin about how has chevy not made a Volt powertrain Equinox
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Jul 1, 2020 18:40
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MomJeans420 posted:PHEVs are the best of both worlds, at the expense of having to have an engine plus a battery (although I'm assuming you can have a smaller battery that way, which helps keep the costs down). Sounds like the point is to build cars? Aren't they expanding battery production in the US? Makes sense to concentrate battery production to a few facilities (in the beginning, anyway) as it requires fairly high-level competence and gear.
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Jul 1, 2020 19:01
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Battery demand comes with it's own incredibly serious problems: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-mining-children-trfn/tesla-apple-among-firms-accused-of-aiding-child-labor-in-africa-idUSKBN1YK24F So I'm ok with supply constraints caused by vetting supply chains. Yuns fucked around with this message at 19:35 on Jul 1, 2020 |
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Jul 1, 2020 19:33
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Pretty much everyone in the battery business is on a path to cobalt-free. Tesla's cars made in China are made from CATL, and there's none in them.
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Jul 1, 2020 19:38
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Wibla posted:Sounds like the point is to build cars? Aren't they expanding battery production in the US? Makes sense to concentrate battery production to a few facilities (in the beginning, anyway) as it requires fairly high-level competence and gear. The point is to build cars you can sell, and it's going to be very interesting for Tesla in Europe in 2020 and 2021 due to a lot of increased competition. If the rest of Europe ends up like Norway, it may not be worth spending 4 billion Euros to build a factory there. *edit* I don't think the CATL batteries Tesla is using in China are cobalt free yet, they just recently got approval for that MomJeans420 fucked around with this message at 20:13 on Jul 1, 2020 |
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Jul 1, 2020 20:11
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Nfcknblvbl posted:Pretty much everyone in the battery business is on a path to cobalt-free. Tesla's cars made in China are made from CATL, and there's none in them. They got the approval 3 weeks ago, nothing about actually doing it yet. It’s on the Elon timeline, naturally.
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Jul 1, 2020 20:20
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On the flip side, Volts were cheaper than Bolts in 2017, but today Bolts are selling for about the same as when I bought my Volt post tax credit. I love my Volt but I also can't completely blame GM for saying just decide between a Bolt or a Cruze (or even something like an Equinox at that price point) instead. The savings on a chunk of batteries vs adding in an ice motor is rapidly shrinking and making PHEV's kind of a dead end. I like owning a PHEV a lot, but I'm pretty comfortable saying that I'm only buying full EV's going forward. especially with some of the models on the horizon pushing 300+ miles
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Jul 1, 2020 20:31
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wolrah posted:Like everyone else said, a modern EV with a full charge is almost certainly practical for 90% of people's daily driving needs. The problem is that being able to start the day with a full charge is something mostly reserved for homeowners and a lucky subset of renters. This is exactly my case. I live in an apartment and I very highly doubt I could get an outlet. I still want to be able to take advantage of the outlet access expanding, and the longer EV modes for certain areas. Plus I intend to keep a new car long term, my housing might change before I want/need a new car. Been waiting for news of the 2021 Prius Prime but they’ve been silent on it. The short run of Rav4s doesn’t give me a lot of hope for the already god awful availability the Prius one has.
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Jul 1, 2020 20:31
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Where the gently caress are Toyota's hybrid trucks
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Jul 1, 2020 20:46
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Jimong5 posted:On the flip side, Volts were cheaper than Bolts in 2017, but today Bolts are selling for about the same as when I bought my Volt post tax credit. I love my Volt but I also can't completely blame GM for saying just decide between a Bolt or a Cruze (or even something like an Equinox at that price point) instead. The savings on a chunk of batteries vs adding in an ice motor is rapidly shrinking and making PHEV's kind of a dead end. That's where I'm at. I love my Volt, but I'm always craving having no ICE. Short trips are fine but anytime I go long enough where the gas kicks in I'm slightly annoyed I'm still partially relying on gas. Next car is 100% an EV
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Jul 1, 2020 20:50
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Judging from the promotion on twitter, I'm guessing UK deliveries of the Honda e have just started: https://twitter.com/Honda_UK/status/1276520447576879104
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Jul 1, 2020 20:57
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stevobob posted:Where the gently caress are Toyota's hybrid trucks This guy is asking the right questions! 
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Jul 1, 2020 21:05
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Honda E deliveries have started in Norway as well. Teslabjørn tried the regular power socket. It has a 1500 W fuse so it can actually charge another EV. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeDKGw87FvQ
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Jul 1, 2020 21:13
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Ola posted:Honda E deliveries have started in Norway as well. Teslabjørn tried the regular power socket. It has a 1500 W fuse so it can actually charge another EV. I really hope this catches on in the EV world. Having a backup generator without noxious fumes on tap is a nice perk. I know it's possible to tap into DC-DC converters but I'm worried about voiding my warranty.
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Jul 1, 2020 21:19
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Or apparently run a microwave. I for one support having regular power sockets in cars instead of 12VDC or usb
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Jul 1, 2020 21:20
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PHEVs are extremely important because before people get one, they're like "I could never go full EV", and like a month after they buy it they're like "I wish I had went full EV".
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Jul 1, 2020 22:16
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PHEV's being a 'dead end' doesn't mean they're useless in the grand scheme as people have pointed out. That being said, the rav4 prime after tax credits is basically the same price as the bolt/kona/leaf+/niro and actually more expensive than the regular hybrid. The prius prime/ioniq phev/clarity on the other hand are (msrp) price competitive with the regular hybrid variants and only the base model leaf and ioniq bevs are at that price in the US.
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Jul 1, 2020 22:38
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Count me in as someone that would love to get an EV (mostly city driving, short commute with only about 5 minutes of highway time), but the price + charging infrastructure just makes it a non-starter. Neither me apartment complex and office complex have charging, and the charging around me is sparse and usually occupied. I'll probably get something like the Accord Hybrid as my next car since most PHEVs are dull crossovers or a Prius and just pray that by 2030 cost and infrastructure will be much better.
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Jul 1, 2020 22:55
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Nut Bunnies posted:Count me in as someone that would love to get an EV (mostly city driving, short commute with only about 5 minutes of highway time), but the price + charging infrastructure just makes it a non-starter. Neither me apartment complex and office complex have charging, and the charging around me is sparse and usually occupied. I'll probably get something like the Accord Hybrid as my next car since most PHEVs are dull crossovers or a Prius and just pray that by 2030 cost and infrastructure will be much better. It's something similar for me as well. I own a house but have street parking. There's no ability to get a reserved space in my city unless you have a handicapped plate. So while I could install a charging spot in front of my house on the sidewalk. there's no guarantee that I would be able to park there and actually charge if someone else decided to grab that spot. There actually is an apartment complex a short 3-minute walk away from my house that has charging spots available. But they lock them behind the gates and I asked them if they were available for other people to use and they said that it would cost upwards of $70 or $80 a month in a lease arrangement to do so. I work from home so $70 to $80 is more than I spend on gas in a given month. It really doesn't make a whole lot of sense for me to get an EV with a situation like this.
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Jul 1, 2020 23:01
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Someone I know, lives on a residential Street in Philadelphia, where one of their neighbors applied for a permit, and had the City to designate a spot in front of their house as "electric charging only". Then paid a licensed electrician out of pocket to install a charging station, connected to the house panel, only they can use. I just pulled up their address on street view, and the charging station is still there, but all the signs (but not posts) have been removed. Also does not show up on any Google searches for EV charging. I can post an address or screenshot if anyone wants to see for themselves. I just thought it was a cool idea.
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