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So I did my best to not start a ton of fights with the WLF and the medical center was still packed full when I swapped to Abby. Does it change if you go completely non-violent? Because I definitely did lure zombies to them whenever I could.
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Jul 7, 2020 03:34
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RareAcumen posted:So I did my best to not start a ton of fights with the WLF and the medical center was still packed full when I swapped to Abby. Does it change if you go completely non-violent? Because I definitely did lure zombies to them whenever I could. Just like everything else in this game, nothing you do changes the story at all.
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Jul 7, 2020 04:07
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mA posted:Just like everything else in this game, nothing you do changes the story at all. Oh okay. I saw someone say something about them being fairly sure the morgue was less packed when they tried going less lethal and I wasn't sure if they were right or not. Well now I know! One day I'm gonna go back in a third time and crank up the aggression and item drop and just go to town. 
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Jul 7, 2020 04:38
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Abby leaves the area before Ellie gets there anyway. It's why one soldier asks why is the power on when Ellie throws her and Nora down there.
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Jul 7, 2020 04:46
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RareAcumen posted:So I did my best to not start a ton of fights with the WLF and the medical center was still packed full when I swapped to Abby. Does it change if you go completely non-violent? Because I definitely did lure zombies to them whenever I could. Can you do it often? Because i can only think of the subway bit, the hospital basement and the epilogue, are there other times you can get multi party fights?
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Jul 7, 2020 12:23
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Pocky In My Pocket posted:Can you do it often? Because i can only think of the subway bit, the hospital basement and the epilogue, are there other times you can get multi party fights? I think on the way to the TV station is where you pass through that decently sized area with a gas station in it. There are pockets of infected in some of the buildings there that can be lured towards the WLF NPCs. e: The area in this vid: https://youtu.be/1aDpFTXfiv0t Phrakusca fucked around with this message at 12:44 on Jul 7, 2020 |
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Jul 7, 2020 12:42
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Some TLoU2 thoughts: I love the observation a goon made upthread about how Tommy feels guilty for letting his guard down which is why he becomes such a bloodthirsty and obsessive psychopath. It seems pretty clear to me that Seattle taxed him and Marie's relationship and him discovering Abby's location in SB is pretty clearly signposted to be what ends their marriage. I think if you wanna get into some nitty-gritty symbolism, I think two major symbols in this game I don't see talked about are Ellie's Knife (symbolizing Ellie's youth and her past) and the guitar (symbolizing Joel, his love, and the life Ellie wanted). The knife is essentially an instrument to Ellie the same way the guitar is, and she has played it beautifully for a long time. She is never without it and never in need of another one (infinite knife kills vs Abby's slower choking takedowns) because fighting to survive is as much a part of Ellie's identity as anything else. When Ellie effectively "kills" Abby by stabbing her in the heart, she is seeing the full culmination of her childhood and her adulthood. Both of these women's lives completely revolve around this slim little blade. In this final moment, it will be with the same knife Ellie used countless times to save Joel's life that she will use to avenge him, and symbolically she does. Abby then summons her own indomitable force of will and knocks the knife away, leaving Ellie and Abby on even footing for the first time in the entire game. The drowning sequence in literature is often used as a symbolic stand-in for baptism and rebirth, and despite its extremely violent context, that makes sense to me here. Abby is reborn without hatred, her only concern is survival for her and Lev. Ellie's fingers represent her severed connection from Joel. What she loved about Joel was the humanity within him, the obvious warmth and generosity he had inside, and his own human need for love. Her loss of her ring and pinky finger means that she has to struggle with and cannot really play minor chords anymore, the sad and dulcet notes that make up the sweeter parts of the song she and Joel have been singing. I think her fingers represent, ultimately, the life that she wanted with Joel (a father). The ending sequence threw a lot of people off, Joel and Ellie seemingly resolve their differences and make their peace, so didn't Ellie really get all her closure before any of this starts anyway? That scene shows us that Ellie and Joel had finally worked through their roughest patch and their relationship was finally free to be about trust and love, no more lies or secrets. THAT was what she wanted and THAT was what she lost. Ellie's entire trip to Santa Barbera plays out like a fever dream because Ellie is acting completely irrationally pretty much as soon as she leaves Jackson. The obvious callback to Spec Ops: the Line reminded me of their late-game loading screens from that game like "How many soldiers have you murdered on this rescue mission?" or "Do you eve remember what you came here to do?"... like I just walked 1,200 miles to go murder someone but now I have to infiltrate a slaving compound and free her before i get to kill her? You really need to be the one to personally choke the life from her eyes? Ultimately Ellie's quest for revenge on Joel's behalf cost her not only cost her what was left of her sanity, or her entire perfect family in their dream home, but it ended up weakening her connection to Joel as well, because Ellie had to become the same kind of monster she's been fighting against her entire life. She would have murdered Lev in cold blood to get at Abby, for what was ultimately a completely pointlessly painful and violent gesture. Ellie doesn't get to ride off into the sunset (there is literally no sunset in the final farm scene, despite the beautiful sunset absolutely dominating the sky in the 1st farmhouse sequence), and has to spend the rest of her life thinking about what this all cost her and whether or not any of it was worth it. Bust Rodd fucked around with this message at 14:35 on Jul 7, 2020 |
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Jul 7, 2020 14:31
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Bust Rodd posted:Ultimately Ellie's quest for revenge on Joel's behalf cost her not only cost her what was left of her sanity, or her entire perfect family in their dream home, but it ended up weakening her connection to Joel as well, because Ellie had to become the same kind of monster she's been fighting against her entire life. She would have murdered Lev in cold blood to get at Abby, for what was ultimately a completely pointlessly painful and violent gesture. Ellie doesn't get to ride off into the sunset (there is literally no sunset in the final farm scene, despite the beautiful sunset absolutely dominating the sky in the 1st farmhouse sequence), and has to spend the rest of her life thinking about what this all cost her and whether or not any of it was worth it. There's obvious references to that in the gameplay as well, the entire fight in the theater is mirroring Ellie's confrontation with David with a roles reversal.
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Jul 7, 2020 14:58
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Sassy Sasquatch posted:There's obvious references to that in the gameplay as well, the entire fight in the theater is mirroring Ellie's confrontation with David with a roles reversal. Oh YEAH! I distinctly remember creeping around as Abby completely terrified and spamming listening mode like "Wtf why is this so familiar it's like... OH MY GOD that's GROSS". An awesome moment for fans of the first game.
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Jul 7, 2020 15:03
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Yeah it's kinda gross. I mean I see what they were doing but I don't think that PTSD addled Ellie and cannibalistic child rapist David can ever be put in the same bag. No matter how high Ellie's body count and Geneva convention violations pile up, it's just... hard to compare. I think there's a ton more parallels like this in the game, like how Abby's dynamic and relationship with Lev somewhat mirrors that of Joel and Ellie in the first game, complete with Abby being ready to depopulate the Seraphite island to save the boy's life. The saddest thing for me in this game is how Ellie is incapable of processing her emotions as a direct consequence of Joel's influence on her. He was never able to process grief, anger and loss in a healthy way ("I don't wanna talk about it, things happen and then we move on") and it definitely rubbed on Ellie. Then even go as far as putting his coat on her shoulders before she goes to SB, just to really hammer it home.
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Jul 7, 2020 15:50
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Bust Rodd posted:Oh YEAH! I distinctly remember creeping around as Abby completely terrified and spamming listening mode like "Wtf why is this so familiar it's like... OH MY GOD that's GROSS". An awesome moment for fans of the first game. I was honestly expecting a fight like that with Tommy when you end up in the restaurant after you... split from Manny.
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Jul 7, 2020 16:16
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Sassy Sasquatch posted:Yeah it's kinda gross. I mean I see what they were doing but I don't think that PTSD addled Ellie and cannibalistic child rapist David can ever be put in the same bag. No matter how high Ellie's body count and Geneva convention violations pile up, it's just... hard to compare. I think there's a ton more parallels like this in the game, like how Abby's dynamic and relationship with Lev somewhat mirrors that of Joel and Ellie in the first game, complete with Abby being ready to depopulate the Seraphite island to save the boy's life. I thought Joel kind of had an arc of acceptance in 1 though., but then maybe it was intended to be a failed arc? Him initially wanting to pass Ellie off to Tommy as a protective mechanism and leaving behind Sarah's photo both ended up being corrected later.
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Jul 7, 2020 16:38
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I thought that it was a pretty intentional message that Joel never really got over things, which informs most of his decisions and plays a large role in why he latched onto Ellie as hard as he did.
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Jul 7, 2020 16:41
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Joel has an arc in the first game, for sure. It's just the most rote and streamlined "You have taught me to love again, surrogate daughter, after decades of murder and violence in a cold and uncaring world" possible, but you have to remember that back then that was considered new and subversive of typical video game dynamics.
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Jul 7, 2020 16:45
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lurker2006 posted:I thought Joel kind of had an arc of acceptance in 1 though., but then maybe it was intended to be a failed arc? Him initially wanting to pass Ellie off to Tommy as a protective mechanism and leaving behind Sarah's photo both ended up being corrected later. Remember that the writers initially wanted Joel to mumble Sarah's name before Abby scored her hole in one. I think it was Troy Baker that convinced them otherwise.
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Jul 7, 2020 16:54
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What article or interview is that from?
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Jul 7, 2020 17:01
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It's here:Neil Druckmann posted:There are so many emotional parts of the game that for a long time didn’t land, and every time it’s so daunting to make them work. So often it’s just the iterative process of creation and cutting out a bunch of stuff that we realized wasn’t necessary. What comes to mind right now is Joel’s death. In the first edit of that scene, you felt nothing. Ellie’s being held down and Joel’s looking at her and we had this idea of like, “Oh man Joel’s brain is so hosed up at that moment that the only word that’s coming out of his mouth is his daughter’s name, ‘Sarah.'” It felt powerful, but then Troy [Baker] — to his credit — was like, “I don’t think he should say anything.” We shot both versions, and Troy was right. The scene was stronger without it.
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Jul 7, 2020 17:08
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Jul 7, 2020 22:52
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Lmao I didn't even think of doing that
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Jul 7, 2020 23:07
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Sassy Sasquatch posted:
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Jul 7, 2020 23:14
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I can’t even get mad at Baker getting mad at criticism, even if he was misguided, because of how god drat stupid so much of the discourse had become.
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Jul 8, 2020 07:03
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Phobophilia posted:I can’t even get mad at Baker getting mad at criticism, even if he was misguided, because of how god drat stupid so much of the discourse had become. I love this game but his whole "do not judge lest ye be the man in the ring" thing was really self-righteous and vapid
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Jul 8, 2020 10:13
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BOAT SHOWBOAT posted:I love this game but his whole "do not judge lest ye be the man in the ring" thing was really self-righteous and vapid An artist acting self-important and air-headed? Well... I never!
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Jul 8, 2020 11:17
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Phobophilia posted:I can’t even get mad at Baker getting mad at criticism, even if he was misguided, because of how god drat stupid so much of the discourse had become. It seemed to me like part of his reaction was due to people criticizing the game without even playing it
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Jul 8, 2020 12:59
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And another large number of critics who formed their opinion based on the leaks and then didn’t redress them.
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Jul 8, 2020 13:07
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precision posted:It seemed to me like part of his reaction was due to people criticizing the game without even playing it It was, but the whole dynamic was that the game was unfairly criticised by a lot of people simply because of its content but is also (arguably) deserving of genuine criticism and certainly as subject to critical assessment as any other game. The publishers absolutely knew that the unfair criticism was going to happen from the very start. One thing game publishers don't like, apart from unfair criticism, is actual criticism. So when you get publishers and people involved in the game lambasting criticism of the game as if it's all in bad faith, after having placed extremely strict rules for critics about the nature of the content of the game such that it's impossible to provide an accurate pre-release critical assessment, then that starts to look a bit cynical. Suggesting that critics can't do their jobs because they're not game devs is really low hanging fruit - the scoundrel's refuge of "those who can, do, those who can't, teach". It's all a big mess, a clashing of the sense of entitlement of big publishers to just be worshipped with 10s and widespread critical acclaim with the similarly entitled "girls don't like me" masses on the other side, and a flawed diamond of a game in the middle which is really difficult to talk about or assess in any meaningful way due to the storm raging about it.
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Jul 8, 2020 14:39
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I disagree, I think the bad faith arguments about the game are lot easier to sus out and identify than that makes it seem. Anyone on the “Joel got killed by a GIRL!  ” side doesn’t have anything of critical value to contribute.Does anyone know what the parameters of the reviews were? You couldn’t discuss the story at all, or the character swap probably, but I didn’t even hear about the doge mechanic until I was playing it. What could they talk about?
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Jul 8, 2020 14:45
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Bust Rodd posted:I disagree, I think the bad faith arguments about the game are lot easier to sus out and identify than that makes it seem. Anyone on the “Joel got killed by a GIRL! They were more or less limited to talking about Ellie's section of Seattle. That also excludes the segment in the intro where you play Abby and she kills Joel. On top of that they could not give spoilers regarding specific characters fates, nor talk about the ending. Also I feel like posting the tweet Troy was responding to for anyone that didn't follow this because it's a real good laugh: https://twitter.com/TroyBakerVA/status/1277353529791770624?s=20
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Jul 8, 2020 15:26
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Troy Baker is a doofus but the constant deification of Jason Schreier is just weird
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Jul 8, 2020 15:41
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Yeah I saw that and was like “ok that’s just like a wanky kinda way of saying “hey man, at least we’re trying to tell a story””
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Jul 8, 2020 15:42
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Bust Rodd posted:I disagree, I think the bad faith arguments about the game are lot easier to sus out and identify than that makes it seem. Anyone on the “Joel got killed by a GIRL! Bust Rodd posted:Does anyone know what the parameters of the reviews were? You couldn’t discuss the story at all, or the character swap probably, but I didn’t even hear about the doge mechanic until I was playing it. What could they talk about? Sasquatch covered this but the upshot was that you couldn't talk about either the story, the theme, or the structure of the game in anything but the most generalised of terms because of the rules, which is problematic when talking about a story-reliant game. People were effectively limited to talking about the environments, level design, gameplay etc (and everything that they could talk about aside from the gameplay is absolutely top notch). A few reviewers made a point of saying "I can't effectively review this game" in their prerelease reviews.
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Jul 8, 2020 15:42
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I don’t think it’s problematic to limit a game review to the mechanics of the game, because I don’t want spoilers in a review and ultimately the reviewer saying “it’s good!” or “it’s bad” will not color how I receive it. Like what’s the problem with just going “this game looks great and feels great to play! I can’t really talk about the story but wowie I wish I could!”
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Jul 8, 2020 15:47
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precision posted:Troy Baker is a doofus but the constant deification of Jason Schreier is just weird He's like the single not-poo poo games journalist who actually does his job.
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Jul 8, 2020 15:47
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Necrothatcher posted:He's like the single not-poo poo games journalist who actually does his job. He's really not. He's just the only one people talk about.
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Jul 8, 2020 15:49
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precision posted:He's really not. He's just the only one people talk about. I would love to know who's like him so I can keep track of them.
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Jul 8, 2020 15:51
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There's a big difference between a review and a critique. Perhaps these so called games journalists are getting confused
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Jul 8, 2020 16:08
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mA posted:Just like everything else in this game, nothing you do changes the story at all. Actually if you only kill one WLF soldier in the part right after Yara's death, Lev says "you killed that wolf." If you kill more than one, he says "you killed those wolves." Not sure if he says anything different if you manage to not kill any, but that was one difference I noticed. edit: completely not related but when you're trying to get past seraphites and wolves fighting over a gas station not long after that, when I engaged the WLF, one of them flew out of the front door looking like he was wearing an invisible jetpack, 
Nail Rat fucked around with this message at 16:20 on Jul 8, 2020 |
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Jul 8, 2020 16:17
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Bust Rodd posted:I don’t think it’s problematic to limit a game review to the mechanics of the game, because I don’t want spoilers in a review and ultimately the reviewer saying “it’s good!” or “it’s bad” will not color how I receive it. If you're ok with game reviews only reviewing one aspect of a game then that's fine, but the whole of the world isn't you. And obviously reviewers are able to review a game without providing spoilers, and if something's such a hot topic that they can't avoid mentioning it then they can, you know, provide a spoiler warning.
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Jul 8, 2020 16:23
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Avengers Endgame plays at a solid 24fps for its entire runtime and I didn't notice any actors breaking character or boom mics in the frame. 10/10
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Jul 8, 2020 16:25
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there should be a broad range of reviews with different goals and perspectives, imo
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Jul 8, 2020 16:28
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